Europe should we stay in or get out?
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ShirleyM
We're getting almost as bad as the EU, if one person can decide what will happen without even consulting anyone else, never mind getting agreement.
I wonder if the fact that he supported Remain, but Wales and Cornwall voted Brexit, has influenced his 'decision'?
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john1989
Regarding the second point, I believe people should be selected on merit and not because it ticks a specific box.
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I agree whole-heartedly; to imagine any other system seems absurd, but we don't live in an ideal utopia where that can be the case. When the system we have is so tilted against opportunity for minorities simply because they're minorities, (or perhaps because opportunity is far more comfortably bestowed upon those from the same background who already have it, simply because they are from that background), then it is incumbent upon society to place pressure on those in the system to adjust accordingly.
Recent events have reminded us that it's not just the wealthy elite with an insular nationalist attitude, there's still a lot of tribalism and xenophobia among the people.
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https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-business-as-usual-after-brexit-eu-referendum
Sorry, can't let sleeping Remainics lie
And this in a liberal left of centre newspaper...
Sorry, can't let sleeping Remainics lie
And this in a liberal left of centre newspaper...
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Deleted member 59730
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...low-unemployment-figures-brexit-a7145711.html
There are a lot of measuring sticks out there. Speaking to my financial advisor he related 80% of commercial property maintenance put on hold. Then I heard that Cornish tourist orientated businesses were going the other way with extra maintainance planned for next winter. It all depends on where your customers are.
There are a lot of measuring sticks out there. Speaking to my financial advisor he related 80% of commercial property maintenance put on hold. Then I heard that Cornish tourist orientated businesses were going the other way with extra maintainance planned for next winter. It all depends on where your customers are.
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Agreed, and the property market needed to cool its heals anyway - I do wonder at what age my off-spring are going to be able to afford their first home.
The point I was making and have done throughout is that the economic degrees of change down in some areas and up in others are and will continue to be marginal, and have never warranted the hysterical gnashing from either side.
This was always about political union, for me and all of those I discuss these things with. Some voted remain, most voted Brexit. Not one of them is an illiterate ignorant racist and all but one are Internationalists.
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Possibly never, however we seem to have been slightly obsessed with home ownership=success in this country when of course in reality that's not the case.
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sirearl
Most can afford a home ,its the price of land that stumps them.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2450911/Grand-Designs-house-time-buyers--41k-3-bed-home.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2450911/Grand-Designs-house-time-buyers--41k-3-bed-home.html
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It is better.
Spanish government, ha ha ha
French government, ooh la la
Italian government, ha ha ha ...
The EU spends members' money to promote itself and hasn't filed proper accounts in decades. If a member state wants to go a particular way, 27 others can vote out the sovereign wll of that member state. It's bunkum on stilts.
Our particular strain of democracy has given us a vote and a result which will hopefully be acted upon by the Liberal Clique That Knows Best. Maybe. Watch and learn.
Ireland has two referendums and they were both re-run to get the 'right' result. So had some other 'democratic' members of the Community That Celebrates Itself.
"Zat is not the correct result, you must re-run ze election and spend more public moniez to enzure greater integration, greater enlargement, ein Neu Fourth Reich which will endure forever! ... eh ... peace und tolerance und prosperity ... ahem"
If this sort of nonsense had happened in Africa screeds would be written in the Guardian about how corrupt it was.
The Devil, when he first comes to tempt you, doesn't wear horns and a tail. He wears a nice suit, is impeccably groomed and has a beautiful speaking voice.
He only shows his true form when you oppose him. Then you see the claws.
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john1989
The Court of Auditors have signed the off the accounts every year since 2007.
Fraud account for around 0.2% of the EU budget; representing around 250m euros.
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Deleted member 59730
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Why?
Contrary to what might be swimming about in your head, this isn't a reason or an argument.
The former is an ambiguous generalisation with no argument behind it (in what way does it do this? if it does, why does it? if it does, why shouldn't it?). The latter is just another Leave campaign lie that has already been debunked.
Majority rule? What's the other word for that? Begins with a 'D'...rhymes with 'blemocracy'...
Our 'particular strain' of democracy is Representative Democracy, where we elect people to represent us - people whom we trust to dedicate themselves to the expertise of making decisions for the nation based upon a huge amount of information and experience, both of which is sorely lacking in the average voter. We elect them to represent us and they do this full time, as a living.
If a narrow majority wants these elected representatives to take a particular action, one that in the Representative's expertise would be bad for the country, is that Representative doing their job by dismissing the narrow result, or by complying with the narrow majority regardless of harm they believe it might do to the country?
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The referendum wasn't about harm or not harm to the country, but who the people want to govern them. There was a full debate, so people voted aware of risks one way or the other.
It was crystal clear in the leaflet delivered to every household (at taxpayers expense) that the govt would carry out the decision of the people on this matter. That's carry out, not consider and possibly overrule.
You are quite right to point out that we have a representative democracy, and that does mean that sometimes our representatives vote differently to public opinion, insofar as it can be determined. The often cited example of this is capital punishment. But in this case the public was asked for a decision and they made it. It is now the duty of the govt to carry it out.
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Deleted member 59730
But is it? There are many unanswered questions. Is it the PM's decision? The Cabinet? or Parliament?
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"The EU spends members' money to promote itself and hasn't filed proper accounts in decades."
One of the biggest myths!! The EU accounts have been signed off for years, however, there are discrepancies noted.
" If a member state wants to go a particular way, 27 others can vote out the sovereign wll of that member state. It's bunkum on stilts."
As mentioned, democracy is a bitch!
"Ireland has two referendums and they were both re-run to get the 'right' result. "
It was Ireland's choice to re-run the election, not the EU's!
"Zat is not the correct result, you must re-run ze election and spend more public moniez to enzure greater integration, greater enlargement, ein Neu Fourth Reich which will endureforever! ... eh ... peace und tolerance und prosperity ... ahem"
Said with an Irish accent, it doesn't work!
"If this sort of nonsense had happened in Africa screeds would be written in the Guardian about how corrupt it was."
It is (and worse) and it doesn't!
One of the biggest myths!! The EU accounts have been signed off for years, however, there are discrepancies noted.
" If a member state wants to go a particular way, 27 others can vote out the sovereign wll of that member state. It's bunkum on stilts."
As mentioned, democracy is a bitch!
"Ireland has two referendums and they were both re-run to get the 'right' result. "
It was Ireland's choice to re-run the election, not the EU's!
"Zat is not the correct result, you must re-run ze election and spend more public moniez to enzure greater integration, greater enlargement, ein Neu Fourth Reich which will endureforever! ... eh ... peace und tolerance und prosperity ... ahem"
Said with an Irish accent, it doesn't work!
"If this sort of nonsense had happened in Africa screeds would be written in the Guardian about how corrupt it was."
It is (and worse) and it doesn't!
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Deleted member 226268
.
That 30 year " Shield us from the nosy public " government rule should be scrapped.
We want to know what these scumbags have been getting up to,
and how much money they have quietly transferred to their Swiss bank accounts,
from their dodgy dealings.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/outrage-downing-street-cover-up-8460417
.
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ShirleyM
An interesting article here. Those who read the news from various sources will already know, but those whose news interest is restricted to Sky and the BBC, may not.
http://www.newschicken.com/why-are-tv-channels-not-reporting-the-trade-deals-flooding-in-for-brexit/
http://www.newschicken.com/why-are-tv-channels-not-reporting-the-trade-deals-flooding-in-for-brexit/
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Deleted member 226268
Damn !
Missed it.
Thanks for that Simon, I could have resurrected that old thread with my last "rant" on the
complete B.S. of religion.
.
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We are still a member of the EU and it is against the law to make any official trade negotiations. The 'news' source you are quoting asks why these 'deals' aren't being covered, it's because they aren't happening.
It has been covered the general talks have been taking place but when it comes to things like trade deals it's vitally important to keep record of negotiations as they occur - and they can take upwards of ten years to complete - as entire economies rely on this. An informal chat about what vague direction to take the talks does not constitute official negotiations, and even when they do start, it's been brought up that we don't have enough qualified negotiators available and, ironically, will have to import that labour.
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Deleted member 59730
Wow! You really are an optomist.
Lose the biggest trading partner in the world 22 miles away and gain an 'interest' from the other side of the world from the 11th biggest counts as a win ????
You would cheer if you lost a pound and found sixpence.
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No, it was not a vote about who people wanted to govern them, as the UK government governed us before the vote and will continue to govern us from here on out, barring any coups.
It was a vote on if the UK should remain a member of the European Union, although what people 'felt' they were voting for is apparently quite a rich issue.
Both campaigns lied and exaggerated. The Leave campaign was almost entirely based upon deliberate lies and misrepresentation. People did not vote being aware of the facts, that much is clear - take a look at the most googled phrases the morning after.
They did. Toward the end of the leaflet is the single sentence, "The government will carry out what you decide."
Unfortunately that sentence in that leaflet is not a law. The fact remains it was an advisory referendum with a narrow margin of difference. The outcome is hardly decisive. Can, or should the government act on something we arguably haven't 'decided'?
Still, no matter how much you might want that to be the case, it is not their duty to carry it out. It was, and remains, their duty to represent the people with their greater knowledge and expertise.
You can argue around the margins of how well they will discharge that duty if they think the public might vote them out of a job, but then you're straying into moral rather than legal territory.
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ShirleyM
See? That's how twelve-year olds argue.
I thought you wanted to play 'pantomime'. Hence your smilie and my smilie. You misled me. I thought you were showing some humour.
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Deleted member 59730
There is no evidence that the EU is even close to 'destroying' Europe. Compared to the UK the EU countries are improving by leaps and bounds. Massive civil engineering and infrastructure projects are transforming transport in a way that the UK with a single idea, HS2, can only dream about. Climate change and and alternative energy ideas are being tackled on a mammoth scale while the UK cuts back on its already feeble initiatives.
On the consumer rights front the EU is making all the running. Can you think of a single EU idea that came first from the UK government. Oh yeh, Erasmus, from which UK students are shortly to be excluded because of Breaks-it.
On the consumer rights front the EU is making all the running. Can you think of a single EU idea that came first from the UK government. Oh yeh, Erasmus, from which UK students are shortly to be excluded because of Breaks-it.
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MBE1
I think Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal would argue with that. Italy is beginning to go down the route of Greece, any bailout would be too large for the EU compared to the amounts Greece received, contagion is on the near horizon. The Italian banks and bond markets are in serious problems. The EU is dying from too much EU.
It seems there is some reason to be cheerful, the USA feel the deal being negotiated with the EU is not worth much if the UK is not in it as well, all of a sudden we seem to be being pushed towards the front of the line, despite Obama saying differently. I think in the future people will come to see we got out of the EU just in time, and we will end up trading all around the world on our own deals.
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Deleted member 59730
Have you traveled on an AVE train in Spain? Makes Network Rail look sick doesn't it?
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