Employee taking holiday even though request not accepted

[Jacob Goldberg]

Hi mate, this is terrible! You have said "no" and she has said tough! Surely a disciplinary is in order and maybe an ultimatum that if she does go on holiday the matter will go further. I mean, what message does this give to the other staff if she gets away with it? I hate being pushed around by staff.

 

[DuaneJackson]

People will turn up and take your money if you keep them in line - very few people will actually work for you if they have no respect for you or dislike you.

As earl said - you can earn respect, you don't just deserve it because you are the boss?

I disagree, you do deserve respect as an employer. If a member of staff is told they can't have a particular day/s off and says "I'm taking it anyway". That's downright disrespectful.

If any of my staff did that, regardless of how good they are, they'd be sacked.

I don't want people working for me that have no respect for the company or their colleagues.

Woodss summed it up perfectly:

It's down to hierarchy in my view... the employer employs the employee - if the employer says no, or has policies in place that say "no if such and such situation arises..." then the answer is no - or leave.

If the employee decides to stick two fingers up at the answer or the policy, then they have zero respect for having a job, zero respect for the employer who pays their wages, and zero respect for any rules that are there to ensure a productive workplace for all of the employees, not just themselves.

In short - she's out of line, and should be dealt with as such. Whether that be a warning, or a boot up the backside, is for you to decide.

Turning a blind eye will open the floodgates and actually, lose you some of the respect that your other employees have for both you and your company.

 

[lockie]

A job is a job, if you do not like it leave. I would sack you for taking sickness when I knew you wanted holiday and to be honest, I think that attitude sums up the type of employees I would not want to work for me.

I am very fair to my employees and pay higher than minimum wage as I believe in a fair wage for a fair days work but I would want to see that reciprocated in attitude.

How productive and motivated is an employee going to be if they have not had a proper holiday with their family ?
I have worked for many people and to be honest not once was my loyalty rewarded.

I do appreciate what she is doing is wrong but i am trying look beyond the situation and see what has driven her to do this.
Surely once you understand why it is occurring you can prevent it in future instead of dealing with the symptoms of the real problem which is a not very effective system of allocating holidays.

I also agree it needs to be dealt with so others dont do it too.
The real issue is that two other employees have been allowed to take their holidays at the same time thus making everything reliant on this employees attendance.

Understand the reasons so new systems can be implemented to avoid the same situation in the future.

 

How productive and motivated is an employee going to be if they have not had a proper holiday with their family ?
I have worked for many people and to be honest not once was my loyalty rewarded.

I do appreciate what she is doing is wrong but i am trying look beyond the situation and see what has driven her to do this.
Surely once you understand why it is occurring you can prevent it in future instead of dealing with the symptoms of the real problem which is a not very effective system of allocating holidays.

I also agree it needs to be dealt with so others dont do it too.
The real issue is that two other employees have been allowed to take their holidays at the same time thus making everything reliant on this employees attendance.

Understand the reasons so new systems can be implemented to avoid the same situation in the future.

On the money there Lockie.

Yer strange how loyalty is not rewarded by employers and you will wait a long while to get respect from them.

Unless maybe you are making them a good few bob and then its likely to be begrudgingly.

And yet the silly buggers expect it as a right from there employee's:|

My experience is that you need to be liked to be respected in general.

And that includes being honourable a very rare quality amongst business people.

Earl

 

[Tej]

Respect is commanded... not demanded.

and.. there are a lot of honourable business people around.

There are always two sides to any story..strange that we all defend our wrongs with more vigour than we do our rights

 

[yankee candleman]

Well Tej, I am not sure I agree. I pay them for coming to work for me and doing a job, I respect them for doing the job and hopefully they respect me for paying them and choosing them for the job over others.

Respect is neither commanded, demanded or earned but a given right in my eyes, we should all respect each other. I have let staff have time off with full pay when they have had issues and incidents which needed their immediate attention and I also reward my staff with cash spends in the shop every time we hit an agreed target and I always, always reward loyalty.

You know, maybe sometimes people have to learn that working is not a favour to the employer, it is a mutual favour to both.

I will not tolerate people taking the mick in any shape or form and iwould never do the same to my staff, never!

 

Respect is neither commanded, demanded or earned but a given right in my eyes, we should all respect each other.

I suspect a little study on human nature may help,Darwin should give you a good start.

Earl

 

[yankee candleman]

Have faith Earl, have faith.

 

[bovine]

Lockie mentions something above

"The real issue is that two other employees have been allowed to take their holidays at the same time thus making everything reliant on this employees attendance."

So, what do we do in the situation? If you have say 3 staff and let 2 go on hols at the same time and the third decides later they want time off, then they cannot be allowed to take it. Its really quite simple isnt it? He/she has let two staff have time off and the third one wants it as well. Got to draw the line somewhere. Imagine if all the police wanted time off at the same time!

I dont think it is down the to the ops poor management of holidays that this has happened. If others feel it is , how should someone manage staff holidays?

It is a difficult and unpleasant situation the op finds themself in, but you do need to have some rules in place.

 

[yankee candleman]

Lockie mentions something above

"The real issue is that two other employees have been allowed to take their holidays at the same time thus making everything reliant on this employees attendance."

So, what do we do in the situation? If you have say 3 staff and let 2 go on hols at the same time and the third decides later they want time off, then they cannot be allowed to take it. Its really quite simple isnt it? He/she has let two staff have time off and the third one wants it as well. Got to draw the line somewhere. Imagine if all the police wanted time off at the same time!

I dont think it is down the to the ops poor management of holidays that this has happened. If others feel it is , how should someone manage staff holidays?

It is a difficult and unpleasant situation the op finds themself in, but you do need to have some rules in place.

And that really is it.

 

[crossdaz]

If any of my staff did that, regardless of how good they are, they'd be sacked.

There are loads of people who play your game - turn-up on time everyday, book their holidays well in advance, say yes sir, no sir, etc.

And they do absolutely nothing all day, call you every name under the sun, gob in your tea, steal from you and so on.

I've seen life from all sides of the fence and the above statement is true in many workplaces.

Who makes your tea?

 

[Wendy.Rule]

Just a simple question, but have you asked the first two employees if it is essential that they take time off in this week? Perhaps they are more flexible with when they can take the time.

Holiday time is always so emotive. It raises a myriad of issues and perhaps next year it is worth managing leave request a little differently where you ask for requested times off by a certain date early in the year, like 1 May and then manage with everyone from there.

Should this employee get away with saying tough after you decline their leave? Up to you. Depends on how they say it and what their general demeanour is at the time. Same comment said differently in different context can mean many different things.

Good luck, this is the stuff that makes good leaders great....
Wendy

 

[maxine]

gob in your tea

Ewww!!!

Good job I make my own then

 

[yankee candleman]

Who makes your tea?

We did worse things than that to people we did not like when we made the tea in the Navy.

 

[maxine]

(hands over my ears) "la la la la"

Don't want to know thanks. Surely you wouldn't do this because you hadn't booked holiday earlier enough.

 

[yankee candleman]

In the Navy we were told when we had holiday, much easier that way.

 

[Mister B]

We did worse things than that to people we did not like when we made the tea in the Navy.

Crikey, I'm not going out drinking with you

Mister B

 

[Simon-M]

In the Navy we were told when we had holiday, much easier that way.

Ex Mob meself shippers

That holiday could also be cancelled at a seconds notice

 

I have just read through all of the posts and to be honest i think the employee is "bang out of order" - surely she understands the reason you have given and that you are not just being awkward?!?!?

She can't be that good a member of staff if she can stick 2 fingers up at you in this way......whatever happened to employee loyalty?!?!

I would also remind her that there are so many people looking for jobs out there at the moment ***she backtracks, probably not the best idea but i wouldn't be able to hold my tongue!***

I do understand the importance of family holidays but on the same thought why doesn't her husband change his holidays?!?!? BECAUSE HE CAN'T?

If she knew her husband had set holidays then she needed to get her request in earlier!

Black and white is this case to me......she goes on holiday then it's good bye job!

Then recruit one of the unemployed people who are desperate for a job and who in return for a decent wage will show you respect and loyalty.

There....rant over!!!!

 

Just a simple question, but have you asked the first two employees if it is essential that they take time off in this week? Perhaps they are more flexible with when they can take the time.

Why should they be made to feel guilty when they booked their holiday in advance? Even if they aren't doing anything and are staying at home??? Point is she should have asked for the holiday earlier.......no rational person would expect 3 people to be allowed off in a team of 4 at any one time.

Wendy that wasn't a dig at your post by the way......this thread has just got me mad

 

[Shauni]

I have just read through all of the posts and to be honest i think the employee is "bang out of order" - surely she understands the reason you have given and that you are not just being awkward?!?!?

She can't be that good a member of staff if she can stick 2 fingers up at you in this way......whatever happened to employee loyalty?!?!

I would also remind her that there are so many people looking for jobs out there at the moment ***she backtracks, probably not the best idea but i wouldn't be able to hold my tongue!***

I do understand the importance of family holidays but on the same thought why doesn't her husband change his holidays?!?!? BECAUSE HE CAN'T?

If she knew her husband had set holidays then she needed to get her request in earlier!

Black and white is this case to me......she goes on holiday then it's good bye job!

Then recruit one of the unemployed people who are desperate for a job and who in return for a decent wage will show you respect and loyalty.

There....rant over!!!!

Well said Lucy I agree with your points 100%. Get this disloyal employee off the wage bill

 

Whatever you do, make sure you think about it carefully as it will set a precedent for how you deal with this in the future. Also, think about how it will affect the other members of staff if you change the rules for that one person. What if the same situation arises again and the person who wants the time off is no good at their job?

When I was an employee I always made sure if I wanted a particular week I would book it well in advance as it is common sense that staff can't all take the same time off. If I just took the time with no regard for my employer I would have expected my P45 or a disciplinary at the very least.

 

Whatever you do, make sure you think about it carefully as it will set a precedent for how you deal with this in the future. Also, think about how it will affect the other members of staff if you change the rules for that one person. What if the same situation arises again and the person who wants the time off is no good at their job?

Well said!

 

[lockie]

The employer should set up a system where only one employee can be off at any one time thus avoiding this situation but also having the flexibillty to allow a good employee off at short notice if the need arises.

This was how it was where i worked previously and makes sense.As for her husband moving his holidays when he possibly is the main bread winner isnt going to work.Lets think about it for it a minute,risk the main bread winners job or the risk the lower paid job ?

I have been in this senario and know what its like,i went sick instead of even mentioning it as i knew they wouldnt let me take holiday as others had booked it up the year before and i didnt even know when my partner could take her holiday.

Its not as clear cut as you all say,people have lives outside of work and at the end of the day its only a job to many,not a career or their own business so they dont care.I always went into to work and gave to the best of my abilities and rarely took time off
but i knew they would never allow me the holiday time as other had booked it first.It didnt matter that it was the blaggers who were always off sick who got in first,they didnt care then as employers.Those with the best attendance and performance should have had first choice imo but it wasnt the case so why should i be bothered if they are dropped in it while im off was my attitude ?
More to it not that clear cut as sack em.

 

[bovine]

but Lockie, surely your method would cause more problems - rather than have advance notice of leave, you would get last minute leave requests. Which would not resolve the issue as you could get two people asking for the same time off at the last minute.

The simple fact is if everyone wants the same time off it is a problem, no matter what system is in place. In these situations someone has to be disappointed or take unapproved leave or you close the business while everyone has a holiday. You have to come up with a system and stick to it. If everyone knows the score then there is no real room for complaint. Whenever possible let them have time and be prepared to let them have time if if completely unavoidable (deaths, family illness etc) and be flexible, but stick to your system.

 

Crossda, sirearl - I hope the summer on your planet is better than it is here!

*shakes head in despair*

It sure is we get to sit on the beach eating ice cream all day if we want.

Then we have all them jetskis and speedboats to play with,so I guess it does top adding up loads of figures all day.

Now come on Duaney I would have thought you of all people would have understood the dynamics of employer /employee relationships.?

P.S bit of a hard weekend ahead at Brands Hatch showing off our Can Am Spiders,cause I may slip off and watch The british Superbike races for a while.

But someones got to do it,good job I am brave.:|

Earl

 

[Simon-M]

When I was in the Navy ... uncle Albert dit coming up.. We had a rule that everyone understood. The ship is more important than the shipmate. Lose the ship and everyone goes. Lose a shipmate and it's sad but there's a spare pair of shoes going cheap

As the boss you are responsible for securing everyones job. Not just one persons. If this act of disloyalty risks the jobs of others then you need to make the decision to get rid of that person. Being a boss is not being everyones mate. It is about the big picture. Sometimes hard choices have to be made for the long term good of the business.

Simon

 

[crossdaz]

When I was in the Navy ... uncle Albert dit coming up.. We had a rule that everyone understood. The ship is more important than the shipmate. Lose the ship and everyone goes. Lose a shipmate and it's sad but there's a spare pair of shoes going cheap

So now this two bit firm (who has never bothered answering any posts, I might add) is a navy battleship and the welfare of all on board the good ship Britannia is dependent on some employee's holiday request.

Holidays in August - whatever next, a day off at Christmas!!

bah, humbug - sack the lot of 'em.

 

[crossdaz]

Then recruit one of the unemployed people who are desperate for a job and who in return for a decent wage will show you respect and loyalty.

Who said she was getting a decent wage - I doubt this is the case at all?

 

Who said she was getting a decent wage - I doubt this is the case at all?

To be fair it shouldn't actually matter at all about the wage - she accepted the job.

I think there is no room for people like this is a business - if they are prepared to drop you in the sh*t then you don't need them.

I stand by my views that for every bad employee there are 10 good ones waiting for the job - especially in this day in age!!

Employees should have respect and loyalty. The OP is not being unreasonable - half of the work force is already off - how can someone think that they too would be allowed off? Someone like that lacks common sense and would have no place in my office.

Family holidays i understand that but if you needed specific days off then they should have been asked for immediately.

 

[yankee candleman]

I think Crossdaz does not employee people and if he does, I want to work for him so I can just take time off whenever I fancy and he obviously pays high wages so sound good to me.

 

I think Crossdaz does not employee people and if he does, I want to work for him so I can just take time off whenever I fancy and he obviously pays high wages so sound good to me.

Yeah i'll have a job too please

 

[crossdaz]

I think Crossdaz does not employee people and if he does, I want to work for him so I can just take time off whenever I fancy and he obviously pays high wages so sound good to me.

I wouldn't employ anyone who can't read - which you obviously can't

 

[yankee candleman]

Sorry Daz, must have missed it amongst the interesting posts, care to refresh me?

 

[yankee candleman]

I think it must be? I should point out that I've had days in the past where I've had a dozen new starters at 8 am and by 12 noon there has only be one left. I have no qualms whatsoever dispensing with rubbish and can do it with ruthless efficiency.

Don't worry Daz, found it.

I see what you mean now.

Love your ethics and if you can lose 11 people in only 4 hours I feel that your advice can only be tongue in cheek.

I get it now, you're just kidding around.

 

[SillyJokes]

Seriously though, you'll be fine. No one shops online in August. You'll manage.

 

[crossdaz]

Love your ethics and if you can lose 11 people in only 4 hours I feel that your advice can only be tongue in cheek.

Not really? I think my point was that I wasn't some wishy washy liberal who is accustomed to being taking the mickey out of?

I don't work in construction any more, not sure I ever want to, but decent people are few and far between. Any large project involves an element of hiring/firing in order to put together a decent team. This can be a stressful process at times but worth it in the long run. There are many who don't have the backbone to do this and always suffer for it eventually - that's when all the petty rules come into play.

I don't know what it's like in minimum wage land where skivvies are two a penny so, yes, I might be out of my depth in this respect?

I don't intend to get into a petty tit-for-tat exchange with you either - if you don't like people disagreeing with you then there's not much I can do about it?

 

[yankee candleman]

Not really? I think my point was that I wasn't some wishy washy liberal who is accustomed to being taking the mickey out of?

I don't work in construction any more, not sure I ever want to, but decent people are few and far between. Any large project involves an element of hiring/firing in order to put together a decent team. This can be a stressful process at times but worth it in the long run. There are many who don't have the backbone to do this and always suffer for it eventually - that's when all the petty rules come into play.

I don't know what it's like in minimum wage land where skivvies are two a penny so, yes, I might be out of my depth in this respect?

I don't intend to get into a petty tit-for-tat exchange with you either - if you don't like people disagreeing with you then there's not much I can do about it?

I don't mind you disagreeing with me, far from it. Just yet to see a relevant point from you. I find your arrogance to people who work for a decent wage as somewhat aloof and I am sure the millions of workers in the UK who are on a fair wage would not feel a warmth towards someone who describes them as skivvies and two a penny.

I am sure you don't mean any ill towards them but maybe you need to rethink how you describe hard working, honest people and maybe accept the fact that a wage is a wage and people have different expectations of what they want to achieve out of life, hence why there are people like yourself who will take the plunge into higher paid jobs and those who feel safe working a steady, secure week for an amount of money they deem fair and reasonable.

Nothing personal, don't even know you and doubt you meant any offence so don't worry about it and feel free to disagree with me, debate would be boring without it.

 

[crossdaz]

I don't mind you disagreeing with me, far from it. Just yet to see a relevant point from you. I find your arrogance to people who work for a decent wage as somewhat aloof and I am sure the millions of workers in the UK who are on a fair wage would not feel a warmth towards someone who describes them as skivvies and two a penny.

Well if that's the impression I gave you then I can only apologise. The skivvie remark was aimed at the people who take the view someone should be sacked for not giving what they think was adequate notice on what was very limited information from the OP (about 2 sentances)?

From where I'm coming from this would be the least of my worries - 3 weeks notice is fair enough unless there were specific arrangements in place that only the OP can know?

Obviously different industries will have opposing views on what is and isn't acceptable.

In my view it's a petty matter and the action of a disgruntled employee who's been told she can't have holidays when she likes, even though two other people can? But I'm guessing, I could be wrong!

 

[yankee candleman]

I also think it is a matter which should not take up too much of an employers time, two choices really, accept it or do something about it.

I guess you and I are similar in the fact that we would probably give them the rest of the year off as well.