Employee taking holiday even though request not accepted

[animalmagic]

So sorry that this is my first post...but probably the first of many!!

We have 4 staff and 1 requested holiday the other day for the end of August...we already have 2 staff off then so I apologised and said we couln't grant it. She's just phoned me to say she's going anyway as hubby can't take any other week!

Just wondered where we stand?? She is a good member of staff, but not been with us long so this just doesn't give me a good impression and I'm not sure what to do! It really leave's us in amess and can't cope with 3 people off and can't find and train someone in time to cover!!

Argggg!

Thanks,
Maria
-x-

 

[MrsPWN]

I can't help legally but I know our employees handbook says we shouldn't book our holidays until the time off has been confirmed, does yours have anything like that?

 

[easyasit]

Well i am no legal expert, but the employment law for dummies book i have outlines that this is unauthorised leave.
Poss along the same lines as a colleague of mine getting a bee in his bonnet and walking out. He was given a verbal warning.
If she has been with you for less than a year she does not have full rights as an employee, so in theory, and dont quote, me you could and i am sure many would just sack her.

Perhaps a warning for it.

Then again she is a good member of staff as you say, i am sure you would not want to lose that.
That said, if she could do this to you, then i am sure she would do something similar or worse. Not a good start on a new job is it?

2.3 million unemployed out there mate, i am sure if push came to shove you would find someone who is both good at their job and reliable.

Just my opinion, as said i am no legal expert

 

[Lime One]

It is unauthorised leave and to tell you in advance she intends to overide your wishes is a clear message you do need to do something about it. Talk to our HR team at [email protected] or phone on 01244 852550. There is a disciplinary process to follow to ensure you stay on the right side of the law as well as being fair to ALL employees not just ones who put their own needs first.

 

[crossdaz]

Just wondered where we stand?? She is a good member of staff, but not been with us long so this just doesn't give me a good impression and I'm not sure what to do! It really leave's us in amess and can't cope with 3 people off and can't find and train someone in time to cover!!

Trying to stop this person from going on holiday despite her giving you a month's notice isn't going to help you in the long term I'm afraid.

Generally speaking, people do tend to go on holiday in August so it's not exactly unreasonable is it? If she had given you 24 hours notice I'd be sympathetic - but a full month?

 

[*Lexxy*]

Trying to stop this person from going on holiday despite her giving you a month's notice isn't going to help you in the long term I'm afraid.

Generally speaking, people do tend to go on holiday in August so it's not exactly unreasonable is it? If she had given you 24 hours notice I'd be sympathetic - but a full month?

pardon? :|

sorry, perhaps i've misunderstood you - because lots of people go on holiday at a certain time of the year AND she's given a months notice, it's OK & she should be given the time off?

it's up to the business owner/manager as to who gets time off & when - if it's not convenient due to other holiday already booked - end of!

if it's a popular time for holiday & her OH can't get leave at another time, the onus is on HER to book her leave in plenty of time.

 

[gouldie0]

it's up to the business owner/manager as to who gets time off & when - if it's not convenient due to other holiday already booked - end of!

Completely agree, in the worst case scenario, it would be the business owner who would be liable for the business and any customer orders that would require processing.

Can you imagine if you started saying to customers that, 'sorry another employee is off and she did give a month's notice, but i didn't accept it due to company policy and she still went'. What would the customer think?

I'm not sure what business the OP is in but this could have a direct impact on profits/ customer opinion (should orders not be completed)??

I would take Lime one up on there offer, at least stay on the right side of the law to protect yourself and the company.

 

it's up to the business owner/manager as to who gets time off & when - if it's not convenient due to other holiday already booked - end of!

if it's a popular time for holiday & her OH can't get leave at another time, the onus is on HER to book her leave in plenty of time.

Afraid this is 2009 not 1809 Think again.

A month is reasonable notice or should they wait till the weather is peeing down.

An employer should expect staff to want there holidays during the better weather periods.

Earl

 

[gouldie0]

Afraid this is 2009 not 1809 Think again.

A month is reasonable notice or should they wait till the weather is peeing down.

An employer should expect staff to want there holidays during the better weather periods.

Earl

All correct but when there is a policy in place to manage the number of employee's taking time off at the same then it's not unreasonable to make this kind of decision to decline there holidays.

I'm sure each employee knew when the holiday period starts and finishes but it's up to them to get there requests in as soon as possible to ensure they don't end up dissappointed - occassions like this.

 

All correct but when there is a policy in place to manage the number of employee's taking time off at the same then it's not unreasonable to make this kind of decision to decline there holidays.

I'm sure each employee knew when the holiday period starts and finishes but it's up to them to get there requests in as soon as possible to ensure they don't end up dissappointed - occassions like this.

Oh a kind of lottery ,maybe they should draw straws as to who gets the cream.?

I have to ask why this was not discussed with the staff some time ago if its such an issue.?

Earl

 

[maxine]

Well my thoughts are there are other good employees out there and ones that won't drop you in it when you have already explained there are two other employees off at that time and there would be financial and other business consequences preventing you from granting authorisation for holiday. I think the behaviour of this employee is completely disrespectful to your business. Why should your business suffer because of their partners employers decisions? Business is business.

You only have to ask anyone working in a call centre, where holiday leave for Christmas is booked a year in advance, or holidays during peak times are organised meticulously to get their view that this employee was gambling with getting the sack when they made that decision.

Having said that, it is important to get proper advice on how to handle things from here on

Good luck

 

Well my thoughts are there are other good employees out there and ones that won't drop you in it when you have already explained there are two other employees off at that time and there would be financial and other business consequences preventing you from granting authorisation for holiday. I think the behaviour of this employee is completely disrespectful to your business. Why should your business suffer because of their partners employers decisions? Business is business.

You only have to ask anyone working in a call centre, where holiday leave for Christmas is booked a year in advance, or holidays during peak times are organised meticulously to get their view that this employee was gambling with getting the sack when they made that decision.

Having said that, it is important to get proper advice on how to handle things from here on

Good luck

well you can't expect respect as well as work from people your trying to exploit and I thought the OP said they were indispensable or it would have been easy to get a temp in.

Naw the days of forelock touching are long gone.

Even God was on the meek's side.

Earl

 

[crossdaz]

it's up to the business owner/manager as to who gets time off & when - if it's not convenient due to other holiday already booked - end of!

It's up to the business owner to have anticipated such an event

if it's a popular time for holiday & her OH can't get leave at another time, the onus is on HER to book her leave in plenty of time.

She has, I always thought that 2 weeks would be considered reasonable, for what should be a predictable event?

 

[crossdaz]

You only have to ask anyone working in a call centre, where holiday leave for Christmas is booked a year in advance, or holidays during peak times are organised meticulously to get their view that this employee was gambling with getting the sack when they made that decision.

You could also ask them how many jobs they've had in the last 2 years and also that if their place of employment caught fire would they p**s on it?

There are not that many good people about - once you have them it's worth a bit of trouble to keep them. Most businesses get the employees they deserve.

 

[maxine]

well you can't expect respect as well as work from people your trying to exploit and I thought the OP said they were indispensable or it would have been easy to get a temp in.

Naw the days of forelock touching are long gone.

Even God was on the meek's side.

Earl

Well, I do think there should be a minimal level of respect in as much as to be given an explaination that 2 out of 4 staff are already away during that particular week and a 3rd absence would have a detrimental consequences. To go and book it regardless is sticking two fingers up to the job.

It's up to the business owner to have anticipated such an event

She has, I always thought that 2 weeks would be considered reasonable, for what should be a predictable event?

And who says they haven't anticipated such an event? They have considered the request and said no for good reason. Why should they incur extra costs of recruitment, training and sub level service to customers because of one employees tantrum? What happens when it is Christmas eve and everyone wants time off and will recall this instance when so-and-so took the time off anyway without any consequences? Is the employer expected to close the business or suffer financial losses because of staff dictating to them how their business should run?

2 weeks notice where half the staff already had holiday booked is niaive. Perhaps there should have been more communication and planning prior to this ie; when they started or at the beginning of the year or a few months ago, make people aware that only 2 out of 4 could be off at any one time.

You could also ask them how many jobs they've had in the last 2 years and also that if their place of employment caught fire would they p**s on it?

There are not that many good people about - once you have them it's worth a bit of trouble to keep them. Most businesses get the employees they deserve.

You could but this is not relevant. The point I was making is that there are plenty of industries that either have to plan for service levels to remain in business or who choose to do so to make their business successful.

There are loads of good people about. This is not an employees market. Look at all the people working 3 to 4 day weeks and ask them whether they would have stuck two fingers up to their boss in this way when they are struggling to put food on their tables. I do agree that businesses get the employees they deserve and I do actually believe it is worth a bit of trouble to keep people but I don't believe that this is one of those instances. I think it demonstrates complete lack of consideration for the business, the business owners, the rest of the staff on every level. What if the last remaining employee for this week goes off sick? Is the employer supposed to have a shut down?

Good luck to the op

 

[Magsite]

You've got 4 weeks notice to find cover, (she could have gone off on the sick, which would have been even worse)

At least she's been honest, getting time off with your partner is essential but difficult if you both work

 

[yankee candleman]

Shocked look!

Firstly, do you have contracts in place which stipulate when they can take holiday? If so, then they must abide by the terms they have agree to. If you have said no and your employee is still saying she is going, she is not a good employee I am afraid and it is a sign of things to come.

My advice is to join the FSB if you are not already and get free legal advice before you do anything.

If it was me though, I would let her go and not just for the holiday.

 

Well, I do think there should be a minimal level of respect in as much as to be given an explaination that 2 out of 4 staff are already away during that particular week and a 3rd absence would have a detrimental consequences. To go and book it regardless is sticking two fingers up to the job.

Respect is something that has to be earnt ,its not a condition of employment.

Having a business or more money than someone else does not qualify for instant respect.

I would much prefer people to like me than respect me,cause I think its a much more valuable thingy.

Earl

 

[yankee candleman]

Earl, do you employ people?

 

[*Lexxy*]

hail to Maxine, who has said everything i was thinking, but much better than me!

i truly cannot believe some of the opinions being expressed here.

i'm very much for workers rights but in a small company, there HAS to be a bit of give n take on both sides otherwise it can just fall apart.

i've had a lot more years as an employee than an employer & i respected the terms of my employment as they were explained to me. nothing to do with living in the 1800's.

i hope the OP get's it all sorted, let us know how you get on.

 

[yankee candleman]

Sadly the attitude of some employees these days is that they are doing you the favour. I recently had a member of staff leave me after a year of working for us and she text us to say she had found another job and did not want to work her notice period as it would be too stressful for her! We had to go through a grievance procedure to complete her end of employment as the law states anyone who leaves and does not want to work their notice is filing a grievance against you.

I would not have been that bothered if we had not taken her on from volunteer work from the Mental Health association as she had previously had a breakdown and was declared unfit to work. She was offered a job by a "friend" who's establishment we use to frequent after work.

This girls was always late and never the perfect employee but we liked her and put up with a few things we did not have to. Lesson learned there.

I also had to kerb an uprising when our staff were disgruntled about the amount of time they were allowed for lunch. One said that it was a legla requirement to be given a 1 hour lunchbreak. I copied the Governemnt guidelines which state they are only entitled to 20 mins paid lunchbreak and I paid them for 30 so did they want a 30 minute lunchbreak paid or 1 hour with 40 minutes unpaid?

I am all for fair working rights etc but fair means both parties are happy, not just one.

 

Earl, do you employ people?

Not anymore there a pain in the ass.More co-operatives these days

I used to be the managing director of an electrical contracting company employing 200 people.

We had plenty of mutual respect there.

I respected that the lads worked hard and were skilled.

And they respected the fact that they averaged 1k a week over 10 years ago.

Earl

 

[yankee candleman]

£1k a week, would hate to go back to that.

Things change, people change and attitude changes as well. We employed three people 3 months ago when the shop expanded, one quit after 4 weeks as she did not realise working in a shop would mean standing up all day, the other was a friend and thought she could not turn up, not call us to let us know she wasn't turning up and still have a job after the third time this happened. The other is still there but has a dodgey sickness record.

We have a 15 year old lad working for us as a volunteer one day a week on a retail experience course and he is the best worker of them all, we pay him much better than minimum wage when he does work other days (school permission has been given) and he has our respect regardless if he respects us.

Our full time manager worked for New Look for 10 years and is brilliant, she works round us and we also offer the same back when she needs it but I would never put up with a person insisting they took a holiday in a period where it would leave us understaffed and would hope that they had enough respect of the job to never put me in that position.

 

[maxine]

Respect is something that has to be earnt ,its not a condition of employment.

Having a business or more money than someone else does not qualify for instant respect.

I would much prefer people to like me than respect me,cause I think its a much more valuable thingy.

Earl

I do still think there should be a minimal level of respect. Call me old fashioned if you like

 

[Geoff T]

I do still think there should be a minimal level of respect. Call me old fashioned if you like

ok - thanks...consider it done!!!

not that I'm saying it's a bad thing, but you set 'em up Max...(one of us) will knock 'em out of the park...

 

[Mister B]

Well, I'm firmly in the "don't let her get away with it camp."

As well as all of the reasons put forward already, to allow her to get away with it would be setting a precedent.

What happens in a years time? Do they all have August off?

Mister B

 

[BusinessDeli]

Yup, sorry but I'd agree. Tell her to enjoy her holiday and to not worry about coming back; then start recruitment proceedings for her replacement.
A small company just cannot have 75% of staff off and put in a good show.

*If* another member of staff going on holiday were willing to postpone to swap holiday dates then it might work out but to be fair they would have booked time off first and I'd still give a warning to the woman.

 

[Alicatt]

We have a similar set up - 5 staff in an ecommerce business and can't really afford more than one person off at a time.

We state in the staff handbook that it's one person at a time - 1st come, 1st served. We will try to be flexible if its just an odd day or so. All holidays are on a wall planner so people can check who is off when. And I start nagging in January for those who want time off in August to get their dates sorted!

I would definitely speak to Lime One - you need to take some action if only to prevent future problems.

 

[a1isp]

She should have asked earlier. Start looking for her replacement.

If she doesn't want to play the employee game, then the world of self-employment will let her take holidays whenever she wants!

 

She should have asked earlier. Start looking for her replacement.

If she doesn't want to play the employee game, then the world of self-employment will let her take holidays whenever she wants!

yep but in the words of the OP "she is a good member of staff "

Can't replace them easily in this day and age.

Earl

 

[yankee candleman]

Sorry Earl, disagree and would sack her.

I want loyalty and if it is not there I would not want them.

Loads of good people out there who would give you 100% in return for your money.

 

Sorry Earl, disagree and would sack her.

I want loyalty and if it is not there I would not want them.

Loads of good people out there who would give you 100% in return for your money.

Well in my book ability far surpasses loyalty.

My cats loyal ,but totally useless at SEO.

Earl

 

[Shauni]

Afraid this is 2009 not 1809 Think again.

A month is reasonable notice or should they wait till the weather is peeing down.

An employer should expect staff to want there holidays during the better weather periods.

Earl

But 75% of the staff are off at the same time. Excuse me if I am wrong but this would be poor planning to let this happen in normal circumstances would it not? As it happens this employee has left the OP in the mire and as such I would have no hesitation of getting rid as they do not value the OP as a responsible employer or as a decent person.

 

[lockie]

It might be a case that her husbands job can only give him that time off and he is in no position to do what she has done as hes the main bread winner. Personally i would have asked and gone sick in their position. WHY ? Well its only a job at the end of the day and in this day and age very few employers reward loyalty and family is much more important.Her choice is no family holiday or take a chance and go on one.
You cant take back that family time you miss but you can get another job, which how i reckon she is how shes thinking.

Not exactly an employer friendly view i know but trying to see it through her eyes.
This thread highlights why i work for myself, to avoid all this nonsense and enjoy quality family time.

 

[DuaneJackson]

Crossda, sirearl - I hope the summer on your planet is better than it is here!

*shakes head in despair*

 

[woodss]

It's down to hierarchy in my view... the employer employs the employee - if the employer says no, or has policies in place that say "no if such and such situation arises..." then the answer is no - or leave.

If the employee decides to stick two fingers up at the answer or the policy, then they have zero respect for having a job, zero respect for the employer who pays their wages, and zero respect for any rules that are there to ensure a productive workplace for all of the employees, not just themselves.

In short - she's out of line, and should be dealt with as such. Whether that be a warning, or a boot up the backside, is for you to decide.

Turning a blind eye will open the floodgates and actually, lose you some of the respect that your other employees have for both you and your company.

 

[FireFleur]

Most companies end up making the holiday schedule really obvious to everyone, and in fact that is a good interview question to ask just before you hire someone.

Thinking about it, the first few places I worked back in the days when HR was personnel, I was always asked. But later on that stopped, just when personnel became HR, interesting.

If she is a good worker, and she returns a profit to the company you would be a fool to get rid of her. And it is more a case of looking at how you handle holidays of your employees, you need to make it fun and make sure they sort it out themselves (and you review it) and ensure that happens, then ensure they all know with a wallchart or intranet page.

 

[crossdaz]

Crossda, sirearl - I hope the summer on your planet is better than it is here!

*shakes head in despair*

I think it must be? I should point out that I've had days in the past where I've had a dozen new starters at 8 am and by 12 noon there has only be one left. I have no qualms whatsoever dispensing with rubbish and can do it with ruthless efficiency.

The point you are missing that it is crucial to get the right people from day one and then do everything you can to keep them. The inference was that the employee was a good one.

People will turn up and take your money if you keep them in line - very few people will actually work for you if they have no respect for you or dislike you.

As earl said - you can earn respect, you don't just deserve it because you are the boss?

 

[FireFleur]

Then if people muck around, and take holidays at peak times, well you come down on them like a ton of bricks. Because at that point you have done everything to stress the importance of it.

You still make it flexible, but even if they win a holiday if the company is busy and needs them, then they should forgo the holiday, but if its quiet and wouldn't be a problem, ask to accompany them

 

[yankee candleman]

It might be a case that her husbands job can only give him that time off and he is in no position to do what she has done as hes the main bread winner. Personally i would have asked and gone sick in their position. WHY ? Well its only a job at the end of the day and in this day and age very few employers reward loyalty and family is much more important.Her choice is no family holiday or take a chance and go on one.
You cant take back that family time you miss but you can get another job, which how i reckon she is how shes thinking.

Not exactly an employer friendly view i know but trying to see it through her eyes.
This thread highlights why i work for myself, to avoid all this nonsense and enjoy quality family time.

A job is a job, if you do not like it leave. I would sack you for taking sickness when I knew you wanted holiday and to be honest, I think that attitude sums up the type of employees I would not want to work for me.

I am very fair to my employees and pay higher than minimum wage as I believe in a fair wage for a fair days work but I would want to see that reciprocated in attitude.