Dragons Den back

[Team Leith Training]

I agree to a point internet, but many have done well out of dragons den as well. Who invested in reggae sauce
?
Admittedly you need to sort the chaff from the wheat but you've had some good ventures out of it too

 

[Philip Hoyle]

Yes, like how to add up, and how to know how much your turnover is, and what the difference between a quote and an order really means

Sadly, with the constant dumbing down, that kind of thing is actually quite useful to a lot of people. I certainly have to go right back to basics with some new clients - even those who are supposedly "educated" - things like teaching them how to calculate simple percentages. Also those who get confused between "turnover" and "profit". Down at the coal face, lots of people have very poor basic numeracy ability.

 

[ecenica]

I watched Dragons Den on the iPad iPlayer last night. One of the neat features of the iPlayer is you can easily skip forward through the dull bits.

The fact I manged to condense the program into about ten minutes, and the highlight was a fella miming their teams pitch says it all really.

If the interview with the Innocent Smoothies co-founder in the Sunday Times is anything to go by, his new program Be Your Own Boss could be more entertaining.

Rich

 

[10032012]

Yeah, but you don't watch a wildlife, science or history programme where the host is completely clueless just on the concept of people at home having no understanding of it. That is why they watch it - to learn. Why should this be any different?

Reminds me of Discovery channel.. used to be great before they dumbed it down to go mainstream.

Back on the subject of DD... the woman on the hair extensions bars, unless i am mistaken, didnt need investment if her figures were true - but no dragons raised this?

 

[Simon-M]

didnt need investment if her figures were true - but no dragons raised this?

Some of them aren't really looking for investment, they just want the expertise and the kudos of working with one of the dragons.

 

[10032012]

I watched Dragons Den on the iPad iPlayer last night. One of the neat features of the iPlayer is you can easily skip forward through the dull bits.

The fact I manged to condense the program into about ten minutes, and the highlight was a fella miming their teams pitch says it all really.

If the interview with the Innocent Smoothies co-founder in the Sunday Times is anything to go by, his new program Be Your Own Boss could be more entertaining.

Rich

I am inclined to disagree. Be Your Own Boss will be rubbish. Why? Its on BBC Three a part-time channel that continuously repeats the same few shows over and over again. They still have to resort to buying up the rights to family guy and american dad and repeats them daily to fill up a couple of hours space.

I am sure if its hyped as much as it is, they will be repeating the first episode twice daily.

Despite the low-budget-like nature of the channel... they still manage to burn billions of licence payers money a year. There has only ever been a few good shows on there.

If this smoothie man had any credibility (as in terms of the show) he would be given a BBC 1 slot. The fact he has not to me appears a reason why, despite BBC Three being full of rubbish 99% of the time, there is likely not to be another series.

I will watch it but its the basic nonsense of "He has set aside up to a MILLION pounds to invest in big ideas." I read it as ... "He has set aside UP TO a million pounds to invest in big ideas." With only 6 episodes and a likely cap to the amounts he will be willing to invest (unless BBC gave him a budget of 1 million), its probable that he will not spend half that. In fact, although I don't have a million quid in my bank account, a million pound isn't much in business terms for a serious investor.

 

[garyk]

Despite the low-budget-like nature of the channel... they still manage to burn billions of licence payers money a year. There has only ever been a few good shows on there.

What awesome shows like:

Hotter than my daughter
Dont tell the bride
snog marry avoid



Actually I quite like B3/4 because they do a number of music industry/artist documentaries.

I think the show being referred to is on late at night as well, I guess its just a pilot.

Gary

 

[jane p]

bea london from london.

 

[kalooki]

The Yanky version of it Shark Tank is a lot better they give them a much harder time rip them to shreds a lot of the time and mostly want 51% or to get rid of the entrepreneur and just pay them a royalty whilst they take over the company.

I think it used to be on Dave but not sure if it's still on.

Tom

 

[Hedgie]

I thought the boxer bloke was hilarious. Invest in my belt or I'll see you later in the car park to give you a free belt

 

[internetspaceships]

Some of them aren't really looking for investment, they just want the expertise and the kudos of working with one of the dragons.

That's a very good point and I'm with Simon on this one.

If I went on there I'd say exactly that. I'd happily give 50% of my Company to one of the dragons if they could show that it would quadruple the business with their expertise and resources.

 

[JamieM]

The Yanky version of it Shark Tank is a lot better they give them a much harder time rip them to shreds a lot of the time and mostly want 51% or to get rid of the entrepreneur and just pay them a royalty whilst they take over the company.

I think it used to be on Dave but not sure if it's still on.

Tom

Agreed. I enjoy it. Kevin O'Leary is brilliant. Canada one is good too.

I thought the boxer bloke was hilarious. Invest in my belt or I'll see you later in the car park to give you a free belt

I met him a few years ago. We both pitched products on The Apprentice. His previous product was The Lovers Lead, a dog lead for two people to walk the dog.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Hi Jamie,

Sorry to bother you, but just noticed the watch link you have.

Do you only do the watch in Black for the younger generation? - I'm assuming that the watch itself is "smaller" than the adult version?

 

[ecenica]

I am inclined to disagree. Be Your Own Boss will be rubbish. Why? Its on BBC Three

Can't disagree with comments about burning cash and BBC. Although I wouldn't say BBC Three is any better/worse than any other of the State-funded channels. (eg all equally poor).

From what I read BBC3 is occasionaly used as a proving ground for programs that BBC decide are mainstream enough for their core BBC1 demographic.

Considering BBC 1 also shows program's like The Voice, One Show, Eastenders and Cash In The Attic it I'm not sure what this says about a program's credentials...

Besides. Who here actually has time/energy to watch TV?

The only program I try to catch Jeff Randal on Sky News. It was fun watching Richard Branson splutter about profits and trains earlier this week.

Rich

 

[JamieM]

Hi Jamie,

Sorry to bother you, but just noticed the watch link you have.

Do you only do the watch in Black for the younger generation? - I'm assuming that the watch itself is "smaller" than the adult version?

No we do it in 10 colours but out of stock on pink, purple and blue in Jr right now. Have a look here. Yes the Jr one has a smaller face and band. If I can help further just let me know.

 

[Fred_the_frog]

How many people on here would be able to recall the exact figures from memory that the dragons ask for? It's a bit unfair on those who use accountants

 

[Mick.H]

I liked the abs pack. I would buy that if it went on sale for around a tenner.

As for the quality of the Beeb. I haven't had a tv license for around 10 years now. I refuse to pay for the drivel when we already have to pay for services that offer far better.

 

[andygambles]

How many people on here would be able to recall the exact figures from memory that the dragons ask for? It's a bit unfair on those who use accountants

You mean those complicated figures like turnover, profit and overheads?

 

[Fred_the_frog]

You mean those complicated figures like turnover, profit and overheads?

Ones like what were your staffing costs last year for each shop. If you have three shops, then you've got to remember each one. If you have an accountant i'd expect that's fairly hard to remember. (Along with the added pressure of being in front of 5 famous multi millionaires and bright lights and cameras)


I liked it when that woman said she makes a gross margin of 75%. Theo didn't believe her so he asked her what she was charging and how much the hair cost and he came up with 50%. Then he got a little angry when she told him she can do more than one head with one lot of hair ahaa.

 

[10032012]

That's a very good point and I'm with Simon on this one.

If I went on there I'd say exactly that. I'd happily give 50% of my Company to one of the dragons if they could show that it would quadruple the business with their expertise and resources.

I would love for an entrepreneur to do this on the den, but I cannot see it happen.

Someone who appears to UNDER-VALUE their business asking for like 50%... but on the condition that if they cant meet targets themselves that their stake will reduce to 5% on a sliding scale.

 

[UK Business Researcher]

Many of the entrepreneurs seem to be remarkably unprepared for a business presentation! They don't seem to know the basic financials of their businesses - it's like they've never seen it on TV. Whereas the Dragons only appear to be interested in backing horses that have basically already won the race. 'So, you've already done all the work and have stock in every department store in the World? Okay, I'm in! But I'll want at least 100% of the company.......'

I noticed the Dragons' disinclination to get into a bidding war last night. Opting instead to get the particular entrepreneurs to pick their Dragon(s) first before going into negotiations. A great way to maximise their equity!

 

[Fred_the_frog]

Whereas the Dragons only appear to be interested in backing horses that have basically already won the race. 'So, you've already done all the work and have stock in every department store in the World? Okay, I'm in! But I'll want at least 100% of the company.......'

This is very true! The only one they invested in last night was the one who have had a big order from boots with free advertising space or something. They are basically there but just need a little money to get moving. Those people very obviously very business savvy- they could have gone to any old investor and pretty much guaranteed an investment, but instead they decided to go on TV for some great free advertising, along with a celeb investor who has a twitter base of god knows how many thousands.

Hillary was the only one who attempted to back a 'not there yet' business, but 95% (leaving the two founders with 2.5% each) was a little bit of a joke!

 

[10032012]

It was awful to ask the entrepreneurs who to choose.

Its a popularity contest, all the dragons want to be named... good for their ego, but if their name isn't mentioned it gets their backs up.

It makes good TV... but the concept of staging that scenario goes against the principles of the show... basically: you pitch to 5 investors, they make an offer, or declare themselves out...

If I was in the Den for hours pitching a business and they refused to make an offer or to declare themselves out... I would have walked. "Thank you Dragons ... (then summarise the dragons all individually in a positive light to build them all up) However, as you aren't prepared to make me an offer, I am declaring myself out... (smiles before walking away)"

(Ok, you didn't get the investment (but advertised product and business on TV and would get offers from better investors) however it would be frowned upon...)

 

[10032012]

This is very true! The only one they invested in last night was the one who have had a big order from boots with free advertising space or something. They are basically there but just need a little money to get moving. Those people very obviously very business savvy- they could have gone to any old investor and pretty much guaranteed an investment, but instead they decided to go on TV for some great free advertising, along with a celeb investor who has a twitter base of god knows how many thousands.

Hillary was the only one who attempted to back a 'not there yet' business, but 95% (leaving the two founders with 2.5% each) was a little bit of a joke!

I would have dealt at 95%!

Its TV not a contract... subject to due diligence, I would have walked away from the deal after it was filmed with a big bit of PR of a slightly negative light for the dragon. (on the lines of "I was willing to give away such a high equity in the business in return for her experience, expertise and finance ... (moan on a bit about the double-dip recession) then recap afterwards saying she didn't have the time, relevant experience or the expertise")

Damn, imagine her face and ego boost thinking someone was stupid enough to give away 95%... only later for it to back fire, ending up in bad publicity (if that exists lol).

 

[Fred_the_frog]

I would have dealt at 95%!

Its TV not a contract... subject to due diligence, I would have walked away from the deal after it was filmed with a big bit of PR of a slightly negative light for the dragon. (on the lines of "I was willing to give away such a high equity in the business in return for her experience, expertise and finance ... (moan on a bit about the double-dip recession) then recap afterwards saying she didn't have the time, relevant experience or the expertise")

Damn, imagine her face and ego boost thinking someone was stupid enough to give away 95%... only later for it to back fire, ending up in bad publicity (if that exists lol).

Even if she did accept the 95%, it will go down the pan anyway. With her having 95% and probably putting hardly anything into it (other than a meeting every other month) then I can't see the two girls being motivated on 2.5% each.

If she owns 95%, would that mean she would be left with 95% of the debt if the company got into trouble? ...

 

[10032012]

You having a laugh it goes like this:-

1) you stick the equity into their name (i.e. issue shares)
2) you enter into a loan agreement with a third party, for the investment monies
3) you meet with a management company - and not with the dragons

 

[Moneyman]

just watched episode 2. that's it. the whole program has gone down the x factor route of "tell me about what this means to you "(please blub for the cameras). the actual business content which people could learn from has dropped series by series to almost less than 10%. I'm out.

 

[matt seymour]

I've never taken Dragons' Den seriously at all.

What I want to see is people with ridiculous inventions like that crazy old man with the exercise armchair from a few series back or the guy who invented a glove you wore to tell you which side of the road to drive on abroad.

I'm not interested in sensible inventions or the negotiations. Give me the nutters!

 

[Big Pete]

I've never taken Dragons' Den seriously at all.

What I want to see is people with ridiculous inventions like that crazy old man with the exercise armchair from a few series back or the guy who invented a glove you wore to tell you which side of the road to drive on abroad.

Oh that was a classic alongside the guy who had the number to ring for his help in London if your lost , and they rang the number and it went to answerphone or something priceless...

This week at first i thought here we go they have made a shampoo for babies ,like its NOT been done right , they won`t be interested , then you hear that Boots are taking it ??

Hmmm now why ?? because its got faces on it and given a name ?? wow.. Now correct me if i am wrong but if i was in charge of Boots and they came in and said hey , you must stock our babies - toddlers shampoo it gets kids wanting to bath etc etc.. I would look and say yea ok so its got kids theme , and within 20 seconds clock that all we need do is stick some stickers on our Boots range and give them names right ??

Sorted
So how long before Johnsons bring out the special kids range you think ?? 6 months maybe ?

Sack the Boots buyers for sure , Mr Boots CEO

 

[10032012]

Pete, probably what happened was:

a) BBC approached them
b) They sold to Boots too cheaply (its a shame they didn't mention these figures)
c) Boots were advised that they are due to appear on Dragons Den
d) Boots only places a minor "test the market" order... 2 per store (?)

Its now a tricky situation. If you are a small business Boots are awful to deal with. You negotiate the price with them... later on in a year or two they will knock off 15-40% from that wholesale price... its likely you withdraw and your product dies OR you agree to the huge price drops and you struggle to break-even.

Its not easy to get into big stores, anyone on this forum will understand that and probably got experience to back this observation up,... however, agreeing a test trading period at your expense (i.e. likely sale or return) for say a couple of weeks at a big store isn't the same as a real order monthly ot week-by-week. Its a significant step in the right direction and a good achievement, but there is no guarantee they will end up stocking it and in what volumes. I know DD is edited (might have been excluded) but you would have thought Theo would have known this.

 

[Moneyman]

Sorted
So how long before Johnsons bring out the special kids range you think ?? 6 months maybe ?

Sack the Boots buyers for sure , Mr Boots CEO

Nope it will probably go down the usual route. Brand builds very fast. J and J or some other decide it is cheaper to buy the brand than start again...exit stage left with a couple of milion.

 

[Fred_the_frog]

Pete, probably what happened was:

a) BBC approached them
b) They sold to Boots too cheaply (its a shame they didn't mention these figures)
c) Boots were advised that they are due to appear on Dragons Den
d) Boots only places a minor "test the market" order... 2 per store (?)

Its now a tricky situation. If you are a small business Boots are awful to deal with. You negotiate the price with them... later on in a year or two they will knock off 15-40% from that wholesale price... its likely you withdraw and your product dies OR you agree to the huge price drops and you struggle to break-even.

Its not easy to get into big stores, anyone on this forum will understand that and probably got experience to back this observation up,... however, agreeing a test trading period at your expense (i.e. likely sale or return) for say a couple of weeks at a big store isn't the same as a real order monthly ot week-by-week. Its a significant step in the right direction and a good achievement, but there is no guarantee they will end up stocking it and in what volumes. I know DD is edited (might have been excluded) but you would have thought Theo would have known this.

I think it was something like 75p to manufacture and they sold it to boots at £1.10 a bottle, with an RRP of £2.10 (I think!)

 

[HFE Signs]

The best program on TV, love it

 

[JamieM]

Pete, probably what happened was:

a) BBC approached them
b) They sold to Boots too cheaply (its a shame they didn't mention these figures)
c) Boots were advised that they are due to appear on Dragons Den
d) Boots only places a minor "test the market" order... 2 per store (?)

Its now a tricky situation. If you are a small business Boots are awful to deal with. You negotiate the price with them... later on in a year or two they will knock off 15-40% from that wholesale price... its likely you withdraw and your product dies OR you agree to the huge price drops and you struggle to break-even.

Its not easy to get into big stores, anyone on this forum will understand that and probably got experience to back this observation up,... however, agreeing a test trading period at your expense (i.e. likely sale or return) for say a couple of weeks at a big store isn't the same as a real order monthly ot week-by-week. Its a significant step in the right direction and a good achievement, but there is no guarantee they will end up stocking it and in what volumes. I know DD is edited (might have been excluded) but you would have thought Theo would have known this.

I think it was something like 75p to manufacture and they sold it to boots at £1.10 a bottle, with an RRP of £2.10 (I think!)

£0.65 to manufacture, cost price at £1.10 and retail at £2.99.

The order was for 41,000 units with in store promotion.

 

[10032012]

Thanks for the info guys.

Lets hope they don't limit themselves to just one chain. Once they be selling volumes (that is an if) at Boots, the price Boots are willing to pay will drop to around 79p... otherwise, they will refuse to continue selling it resulting in an e-commerce website as sole distribution of the product.

That is not a profit.. 65p manufacturing cost... you got salaries and overheads etc. Of course, they can hope the cost of manufacturing goes down with the volume.

Many big stores play by these tricks... allowing the small businesses to come accustomed to one price while the products grow in demand... then forcing them to accept at a lower price or kill off their brand (if everyone gets your product from Boots (no other distribution) probably only 2-8% will Google or go on your website, and then buy from you)

I don't know how Boots work internally, but I suspect many stores, after trialling a product determine how long it will last then work out costs. So if the business starts off with a good deal its likely the "losses" made at the start will offset in the future.

 

[imperial-imports]

Excited, I love Dragon's Den!

My cousin's cousin was on the show and managed to get the investment she asked for from Deborah!

 

[Big Pete]

Nope it will probably go down the usual route. Brand builds very fast. J and J or some other decide it is cheaper to buy the brand than start again...exit stage left with a couple of milion.

Yes very true good point.... possibly that could be the way it will go.. maybe thats what the Dragons figured ..

Thanks for the info guys.



That is not a profit.. 65p manufacturing cost... you got salaries and overheads etc. Of course, they can hope the cost of manufacturing goes down with the volume.

.

exactly it sounds great 41,000 units but its a low value product and that`s a lot to sell ,then you have the overheads as you say storage rents , transport, salaries , admin, etc etc . on a plus side there will be a lot of clean kids on the council estates for a few weeks

 

[ProjectAAE]

Damn, I'm excited about this

 

[JamieM]

Thanks for the info guys.

Lets hope they don't limit themselves to just one chain. Once they be selling volumes (that is an if) at Boots, the price Boots are willing to pay will drop to around 79p... otherwise, they will refuse to continue selling it resulting in an e-commerce website as sole distribution of the product.

That is not a profit.. 65p manufacturing cost... you got salaries and overheads etc. Of course, they can hope the cost of manufacturing goes down with the volume.

Many big stores play by these tricks... allowing the small businesses to come accustomed to one price while the products grow in demand... then forcing them to accept at a lower price or kill off their brand (if everyone gets your product from Boots (no other distribution) probably only 2-8% will Google or go on your website, and then buy from you)

I don't know how Boots work internally, but I suspect many stores, after trialling a product determine how long it will last then work out costs. So if the business starts off with a good deal its likely the "losses" made at the start will offset in the future.

I don't agree with this at all. Boots are getting a good margin and there is no need for them to squeeze them out of business. Business thrives on partnerships and currently the Shampooheads margin isn't a bad one by any stretch of the imagination.

The order is based on two per week per store but I suspect they will smash that now.

Dragons Den has a reputation of investors taking a big slice but I think this deal was a good deal for both (or all three) parties.

exactly it sounds great 41,000 units but its a low value product and that`s a lot to sell ,then you have the overheads as you say storage rents , transport, salaries , admin, etc etc . on a plus side there will be a lot of clean kids on the council estates for a few weeks

Are you serious Pete? It's only ONE order!!

Stop the cynicism people!!

 

[Fred_the_frog]

That wheel barrow extender thing. What about when you want to load it with bricks or soil. It won't hold it. Also, a full wheel barrow is pretty heavy. Add an extra 300% and you won't be able to move it!