Do not mess with a Judge

[Steve Sellers]

For all you legal bods - this is what happens when you mess with a judge!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULcZmSQ7Ibs

(mods feels free to move to TO, just thought this for the legal bods in here who would enjoy, and dont normally go in TO).

 

[Nuno]

I'm probably wrong but seem to recall reading a couple of years ago that official guidance to Magistrates is to ignore any obscenities and name calling directed to them by defendants, especially if the defendant has been found guilty and is being sent down.
If this is right I think the American system better: the law should be respected and that includes those involved in the justice system.
Bring back Judge Jeffreys.

 

[Steve Sellers]

I'm probably wrong but seem to recall reading a couple of years ago that official guidance to Magistrates is to ignore any obscenities and name calling directed to them by defendants, especially if the defendant has been found guilty and is being sent down.
If this is right I think the American system better: the law should be respected and that includes those involved in the justice system.
Bring back Judge Jeffreys.

If I am honest, I am not too familiar with the contempt rules. But he was absolutely spot on. He even smiled at one point and forgave her childishness, she forced him into the position and he came across as a very reasonable man who was pushed too far. Good on him I say!

 

[MrCloser]

Doh! it has been taken down

 

[Steve Sellers]

Doh! it has been taken down

Try this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BwTgC-Fs7c

 

[MrCloser]

Got it, she was doing her little girl lost charm act trying to manipulate the judge, he saw straight through it and promptly corrected her.

Xanax is prescription med, but maybe not so different legally than buying a few viagra on the black market. Also it was possession, not dealing and with no previous in uk would probably get just a caution.

The judge acted well out of order imo. Adios is hardly the worst insult, I guess he has dealt with much worse people. Those yanks just love locking people up

 

[Steve Sellers]

I think it was the tone of her voice she said it. To be fair to the judge I think he humored her for a while. If you are up on charges you would think it would be no laughing matter. He came down on her like a ton of bricks, and hopefully it will make her realise the seriousness of her situation.

 

quite Judges who spend all their time in mcDonalds tend to be like that.

Saying bye bye to her is on a par with her saying adios.

Neither being a formal term one expects in a court.

Hence the judge set the tone for her response.

She can't help being young and pretty.

But the judge could do something about being a fat slob with a speech impediment..

 

[MrCloser]

I can't work out if she was stoned, or just naturally dizzy. Either way it was inappropriate in any courtroom.

off topic...

Here is an angry song that really summarises my opinions on the USA private prison system, I really hope the UK doesn't go this way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAJi-W9o7uU

 

[Steve Sellers]

But the judge could do something about being a fat slob with a speech impediment..

She wasn't young and pretty she looked like a druggie. And he didn't have a speech impediment, it was his accent laddie.

Mods I should have posted this in TO, I knew it would descend into nothingness!

 

[MrCloser]

Seems a valid discussion to me. I guess she was held in custody for a few hours pre-bail hearing, maybe she really was that dizzy?

There's wealthy closet cokeheads and smackheads holding down powerful jobs, they don't all conform to the trainspotting stereotype. Even our PM doesn't want to discuss it !

 

She wasn't young and pretty she looked like a druggie. And he didn't have a speech impediment, it was his accent laddie.

Now if I go into an English speaking court I would hope that at least the judge could speak and understand English clearly.

Not to mention a history of losing his temper rather easily.

Not exactly the qualifications one wants in a judge.

Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely



http://katzjustice.com/underdog/

 

[Cylon]

It maybe amusing but the Judge abused his position by rising to it. A person in his position should know better.

The girl looked like any other typical teenager without make up (albeit a bit on the pale side), yes she should have shown respect but the Judge did nothing to demonstrate any suitable behaviour becoming of someone in his position.

I would go as far as to say he was showing off and his actions have done nothing to give him credibility, in fact I dare say in hindsight he felt a bit stupid but no-doubt shows the youtube video to his mates a lot.

Judges need to set an example not act like stroppy teenagers.

 

[Steve Sellers]

Now if I go into an English speaking court I would hope that at least the judge could speak and understand English clearly.

Not to mention a history of losing his temper rather easily.

Not exactly the qualifications one wants in a judge.

Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely



http://katzjustice.com/underdog/

Earl it sounds like you are being racist because of his routes. I hope not.

 

[Nuno]

His speech is clear to me.
He might be overweight, but not grossly so.
Calling him a slob is merely abusive. There is no evidence about his mobility, that is you grasping at straws to support your abuse.
Can you link to the document that details a history of his losing his temper? You claim it is "documented", where is the document?

These are corrections to your claims, which (again) might be based on racism; mild Hispanic accents are not difficult to understand.

I stand by my accusation that you are trolling. Whether this is intentional or through stupidity I don't know.

 

[Steve Sellers]

Seems a valid discussion to me. I guess she was held in custody for a few hours pre-bail hearing, maybe she really was that dizzy?

Dude, have you ever been in a gaol, or prison? Drugs are easier to get than on the streets........

 

[Steve Sellers]

His speech is clear to me.
He might be overweight, but not grossly so.
Calling him a slob is merely abusive. There is no evidence about his mobility, that is you grasping at straws to support your abuse.
Can you link to the document that details a history of his losing his temper? You claim it is "documented", where is the document?

These are corrections to your claims, which (again) might be based on racism; mild Hispanic accents are not difficult to understand.

I stand by my accusation that you are trolling. Whether this is intentional or through stupidity I don't know.

By far the best comment I have read on these forums in a very long time. If I could thank the post twice I would.

 

[arcon5]

Seems the video has been taken down

 

Jog on Earl. Nobody wants to hear it. You don't have any idea of what peoples skin colour or nationality is on here. So why don't you show some respect, and take your insidious comments elsewhere.

The whole point is the judge decided to make the case personal after firing the first shot by saying bye bye in a frivolous way but thought he should be the only comedian in his court.

The TOM TOM refers to sat nav as you seemed to think something was wrong with his routes.

Or did you perchance mean "Roots"

Respect is something that is earnt by a persons actions,not by right or position.

 

[Cylon]

Its possible to pinpoint the exact moment the judge lost the plot, right at the beginning when he was asking for clarification on 'b...a...r...s', that will be 'bars' then Judge.

In any case I thought the girl was showing great respect by addressing the judge (Jorge Rodriguez-Chomp) in his mother tongue.

Was justice done- I doubt it.

 

[Cylon]

Oh and are we in time out yet- definitely like to continue this topic down there.

 

[Steve Sellers]

Cylon and Earl, slapping each others backs.....hmmm

 

[simon field]

Cylon and Earl, slapping each others backs.....hmmm

Who brought hmmm into it? He was in time out last time I looked

 

Cylon and Earl, slapping each others backs.....hmmm

Common sense is not totally confined to the working classes,but its rare to find it amongst academics.

 

[cjd]

It was rather obvious that the judge was on a treadmill dealing with a whole line of people for a few minutes at a time who had been banged up in prison cells awaiting processing.

She was unrepresented too.

It looked like the girl was still under the influence of something - which was why he asked her if she'd taken anything in the last 24 hours.

He overreacted and if it was the UK he'd lose any appeal.

 

[kulture]

I have moved this to time out because of the nature of the comments and posts are far more Time Out style than Legal. Its unfortunate because I understand Steve's intent to get a serious legal discussion on this matter rather than comments about the judge's waist size or accent. Feel free to drag the thread back to serious matters, or to open a serious version of this thread in Legal.

I have also flagged this whole thread for discussion with the other mods.

 

[trebor8]

His speech is clear to me.
He might be overweight, but not grossly so.

A fat pig if ever i saw one and I'm not just talking about his physical weight

 

[Steve Sellers]

He overreacted and if it was the UK he'd lose any appeal.

I can see the argument that he over reacted, although personally I think if he has the power to do it then he was right to come down on her (in my opinion).

Now I am not so sure he would lose an appeal, over here. Certainly not on the contempt sentence, but maybe on the bail increase.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/contempt_of_court/

And

R v Osbourne [1993] 14 Cr. App. R. (S) 265 - sentence having been passed in the Crown Court on the appellant's girlfriend, he walked after the female solicitor for the prosecution and made remarks such as "you will not be smiling any more". Sentence reduced to two months, which effectively secured immediate release.

 

I understand Steve's intent to get a serious legal discussion on this matter rather than comments about the judge's waist size or accent.

Very relevant IMHO as it is for very many other health carers.


Dangerous Mental Effects of Obesity

Many only worry about the physical effects of obesity and tend to forget about the mental and social effects it can create.


Research has shown that being overweight or obese can lead to obvious body image issues and other major psychological problems.



In fact, the mental health and social effects of obesity can sometimes be as equally damaging as the physical effects.


Being overweight can affect one’s emotional and mental health in many ways.



Some of the effects of obesity can include low self-esteem, social discrimination, and depression and in some severe cases even suicidal thoughts.

 

[Steve Sellers]

Back on topic. After a bit more research:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/49/section/12

12 Offences of contempt of magistrates’ courts.

(1)A magistrates’ court has jurisdiction under this section to deal with any person who—

(a)wilfully insults the justice or justices, any witness before or officer of the court or any solicitor or counsel having business in the court, during his or their sitting or attendance in court or in going to or returning from the court; or

(b)wilfully interrupts the proceedings of the court or otherwise misbehaves in court.

(2)In any such case the court may order any officer of the court, or any constable, to take the offender into custody and detain him until the rising of the court; and the court may, if it thinks fit, commit the offender to custody for a specified period not exceeding one month or impose on him a fine not exceeding [F1£2,500], or both.


Further case law

http://www.doughtystreet.co.uk/files/Brian Haw.pdf

The conclusion of which:

42. Our conclusion therefore on the points can be summarised as follows:
i) An appeal lies to the Crown Court from a conviction or a sentence under s. 12
of the Contempt of Court Act 1981 at the Magistrates’ Court.
ii) There is no right of appeal against a conviction or sentence under s.12 of the
Contempt of Court Act 1981 to the High Court under s.13 of the
Administration of Justice Act 1960.
iii) An appeal to the High Court lies by way of case stated and proceedings for
judicial review can be brought where appropriate


Now given the first case I quoted earlier, I would put forward that a 4 week sentence for abusing a magistrate in that manner would be reasonable, and if it were in the crown court it would certainly be far more. The jist of the case law is that any appeal would be based on fact, as in - did the words used or conduct amount to "abuse" in the ordinary use of the word, if so it is not for a higher court to substitute judgment and the sentence would stand. This is my initial view on reading only a few cases, so I am open to the other position still.

Really quite interesting actually, guess what I will be doing this avo!

 

[cjd]

A UK magistrate would be happy to see someone like that leave the court and not make anymore trouble or work for themselves and the rest of the court. JPs tend to be very pragmatic people.

My view of the incident was that the judge said bye bye in a provocative way and he got a cheerful 'adios' in response. If she's also Spanish or, more likely, Mexican, it would be hard to prove that her response was contempt at all - certainly not 30 days worth.

 

[Nuno]

She didn't get 30 days for contempt because of the 'adios' comment. She got it for telling the judge to eff off, and giving him the finger, (flipping the bird in American slang).

The adios comment got her bail doubled from $5000 to $10,000, which might or might not be acceptable legal practice in that jurisdiction, I have no accurate idea. Profanity and rude gestures are held as contempt of court there.

Whether a JP sitting on an English bench would react in the same way might be interesting but is irrelevant to what happens in American courts.

 

[Steve Sellers]

A UK magistrate would be happy to see someone like that leave the court and not make anymore trouble or work for themselves and the rest of the court. JPs tend to be very pragmatic people.

Hmm, my experience would suggest otherwise. I'm no criminal bod, but I did spend a fair amount of time sat behind qualified solicitors and counsel in various levels of criminal courts. A UK magistrate would have sent her to the cells just for laughing, in the hope she would calm down. In the crown she would get the same treatment. I have seen a young lad thrown in the cells for laughing when his charges were read out.

My view of the incident was that the judge said bye bye in a provocative way and he got a cheerful 'adios' in response.

Agree with the first part, not so sure she was cheerful like. The fact is though, she is a little scroat who needs to be punished. I am sick of these little wozzers, as they are known local to me, doing "minor" crime and getting slapped on the wrists. Hang em high!

Whether a JP sitting on an English bench would react in the same way might be interesting but is irrelevant to what happens in American courts.

A District judge of above would not put up with it, nor would a stipendiary magistrate. I guess it is all down to the mood of the JP or judge and whther or not her indoors is giving him rubbish.

 

[cjd]

Hmm, my experience would suggest otherwise. I'm no criminal bod, but I did spend a fair amount of time sat behind qualified solicitors and counsel in various levels of criminal courts. A UK magistrate would have sent her to the cells just for laughing, in the hope she would calm down. In the crown she would get the same treatment. I have seen a young lad thrown in the cells for laughing when his charges were read out.

A Uk JP would not behave like that and if they did, any defence lawyer in court would have a duty to make a formal objection. The judge provoked the woman then overreacted. Saying 'adios' in response to bye bye, was not enough to be contempt and in a UK court would have simply got a shake of the head in return.

Agree with the first part, not so sure she was cheerful like. The fact is though, she is a little scroat who needs to be punished. I am sick of these little wozzers, as they are known local to me, doing "minor" crime and getting slapped on the wrists. Hang em high!

Well I guess that's why Judges in the UK must conform to sentencing guidelines and not deliver whatever random punishment they feel like

A District judge of above would not put up with it, nor would a stipendiary magistrate. I guess it is all down to the mood of the JP or judge and whther or not her indoors is giving him rubbish.

A DJ IS a Stipendiary Magistrate ;-)

To avoid random acts like his, UK JPs sit as a bench of three - the DJs tend to deal mostly with long or complex trials not the day-to -day dross like this one was doing - much to his obvious annoyance.

Generally, I've found that UK judges deal with people with care and respect no matter what they've done and it takes an awful lot of very obvious contempt to make them react. Certainly they'd never get away with his behaviour.

 

[Steve Sellers]

Not certainly, in your opinion.

DJ describes a group of judges that sit across courts, a stipend mag is a very specific type of DJ, and describes one that actually sat in the mags. Which given I was describing differences between mags and crown should be quite palpable.

Have you any point to add that isn't your own personal opinion passed off as "certainty". Perhaps you could expand on your experience....Are you a mag? It would explain you blowing rays of sunshine up their.....

PS you mention sentencing guidelines, have you even read those for contempt? Like I say, im open to change my mind if you can put forward a legal argument and not your own opinion.

 

[cjd]

DJ describes a group of judges that sit across courts, a stipend mag is a very specific type of DJ, and describes one that actually sat in the mags. Which given I was describing differences between mags and crown should be quite palpable.

DJs used to be called Stipediary Magistrates - because they were paid, as opposed to JPs or Magistrates, which are unpaid volunteers. DJs are simply the modern name for them. Look it up if you doubt me.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/contempt_of_court/

PS you mention sentencing guidelines, have you even read those for contempt? Like I say, im open to change my mind if you can put forward a legal argument and not your own opinion.

The Sentencing Guidelines are public documents:

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/contempt_of_court/

Yes, I've read them. Contempt is a serious offence but it's reserved for serious actions and avoided if possible - he provoked her and her origional 'adios' was not contempt any reseasobale judge would have shrugged and got on with the next defendant.

I'd happily defend her appeal on the evidence of the video.

Of course after that, it was inevitable.

 

[Steve Sellers]

Thats better lol.

I see why you are being pedantic, but you are missing my point. My point is thus:

A Ferrari is a type of car, as is Land Rover. But you wouldn't ride the ferrari off road. A Stipend(as formally known) is a type of DJ that sits in the mags. Whereas judges in crown 1st level are known as DJ's. They are not the same thing, even though they are both DJ's. I differentiated the two to separate the two very different roles they do, and to identify they sit in specific courts.

Now thanks for the guidelines. Did you read the case where someone got 2 months for talking out of turn to an officer of the court? What he said seems far less serious than telling the Judge to f off.

 

[Cylon]

It appears the Judge in this case after an apology has removed the contempt charge:

http://www.wtsp.com/news/watercooler/article/297006/58/Woman-apologizes-for-flipping-off-judge

Eighteen-year-old Penelope Soto admitted Friday she was under the influence of Xanax and alcohol when she made the obscene middle- finger gesture and rude comments earlier this week directed at Circuit Judge Jorge Rodriguez-Chomat. Video of the confrontation quickly went viral.

Soto tearfully apologized to the judge, who said the episode should be a lesson in how to properly treat people. Rodriguez-Chomat said Soto would have been a convicted felon if he allowed the contempt charge to stand.

The irony of the bolded statement is not lost one me and I can't help feel the Judge should also apologise in private for inciting the flipping of said middle finger after an over-reaction to the word 'adios'.

 

[Nuno]

I think the Police should apologize for inciting a pretty party girl to appear in court just because they arrested her when she was off her face.

Oh wait. Maybe the legislators should apologize for inciting her to break the law by passing a law against drug abuse.

Or maybe the Pharmaceutical company should apologize for inciting her to take a very effective anti-depressant when they should have known she might not be a sufferer of depression or panic attacks.

Never the scrote's fault is it? Always someone else. Feh.

 

I think the Police should apologize for inciting a pretty party girl to appear in court just because they arrested her when she was off her face.

Oh wait. Maybe the legislators should apologize for inciting her to break the law by passing a law against drug abuse.

Or maybe the Pharmaceutical company should apologize for inciting her to take a very effective anti-depressant when they should have known she might not be a sufferer of depression or panic attacks.

Never the scrote's fault is it? Always someone else. Feh.

Or maybe the powers that be should ask why the drug is freely available without perscription in the US.?:|