Customer wants to keep goods, but not pay

[woodworker]

Hi everyone, sorry to duplicate this, I already posted it in the tradesmen forum, but there are some legal aspects of the situation I'd like to see where I stand on, perhaps some of you in this forum could shed some light.

Today, I dropped in unexpected on a customer who wouldn't pay me for some work I did for them a month or so ago, to collect some tools that I had left behind, which they said they would post to me, but didn't, and as it turns out actually gave them to their builders. They were a bit shocked to see me.

The job I did was a carved section of continuous handrail, to join some landing handrail double backing on itself down to some pitched handrail.

I quoted them £487.00 + vat for materials and labour.

Deposit required: £224.40 (inc vat)

Balance on completion:£360 (inc vat)

They were happy with this price so transferred the deposit, and when it showed in my account, I ordered the materials.

It took me three days to make, before I couriered it to them for the on site carpenter to fit, as agreed.

A few days later, I got a call from the client saying the carpenter was unable to fit it, due to being the wrong size. This is never what you want to hear, but after wondering about the realistic capabilities of the carpenter, I agreed to visit the site to fit it myself.

When I got there, I must admit that the carved section did indeed need a little trimming to get it to fit correctly, which I did in about 2 hours.

This is where the dispute starts.

I visited the site the very next day, and at the inconvenience of another client I had booked in, to go and do a job that someone who said they could do it....couldn't.

In my view, i was within my rights to ask for more money.

Their argument was: "It should fit exactly without any trimming"

My response: "Carving wood is an inexact process, and some trimming is nearly always required. I am not sure that your carpenter is as qualified for this particular job as he said he was"

Their response: "If it took you, the specialist woodworker, two hours, how was he ever going to be able to do it?"

My response: "I don't know him, or his capabilities, but he said he could do it and that is what we agreed. While I was doing the job he was supposed to do , he was taking care of other duties on site for your benefit. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask to be paid for my time."

Their response: "Well I'll have to speak to my husband"

My response: "Fine, when will that be"

Her response: "He's in meetings this morning, it'll have to be this afternoon."


And we left it at that. I cleared up my tools, all but two clamps, loaded up the van and left.

Later I got a call from her husband ready for a debate about what had happened. His argument was largely the same as what she said, and they refused to pay any extra, because "it should have been perfect".

Due to being very busy with other jobs, I decided I wouldn't waste my energy on this and said "Fine, just pay what we agreed, but would you please put my clamps in the post, as I live more than and hour away from you, and I travelled to you immediately to solve your problem for free"

He said "Ok"

Then later, I got another call;

"There's a problem with the handrial, it's a bit thinner that the rest"

What could I do?

"Right... ok... I'll offer you a discount. What would seem reasonable to you?"

Him: "No thats not good enough, it's got to be right, I want another one"

Me: "....... that is going to be very difficult, I am extremely busy..."

Him: "Well when can you do it"

Me: "I am booked solid until November" (This was in September 2012)

Him "Well I suppose that will have to do"


So it's gone from "It doesn't fit" to "I don't want to pay" to " I want another one and won't pay anything else until I get one"

I agree this probably seems like something I should honour, but honestly, in my opinion, the handrail was not a bad job. Yes it was slightly different from the rest, but nothing drastic. I really had a strong feeling they were fishing for a freebie. It was towards the end of their renovation project, and they had probably splashed out a bit to much, and were look for ways to cut costs.

After that conversation finished, I prowled around the workshop for a bit muttering and swearing, and then became quite angry. What if they didn't like the next one??!!, how MUCH TIME was i going to waste here?

I decided to cut my losses. I called him back and asked him for his account details to arrange a refund for their deposit, so that I could wash my hands of them.

It was hard to do, but it felt like the best thing to do was cut and run, and try to forget about them getting some beautiful handrail for free, no matter how much I couldn't get the image of them gloating over it with their dinner guests at their housewarming party.

So that was it, they won, I lost.

All that was left was my two clamps. They said they would send them, but after a couple of weeks, nothing. I texted them to ask if they would be sending my clamps, they replied yes, but another two weeks, still nothing.

So today I was in the area, and finished a job early. I thought I would go and see if I could get the clamps.

I arrived, rang the doorbell, and you should have seen her face!

I said "Hi! Can i grab my clamps please??"

She stammers "Y..yes I'll just go and look"

Me: "Great thanks."

While she's looking, I wander in and notice that my handrail has not been removed and replaced with one from another joiner, and has actually been sanded and polished instead, and actually looks bloody good, if I don't say so myself.

I questioned her about it, and she said that getting a new one is on their snagging list. I find this hard to believe. Does she really expect me to believe that after they have stained and polished the one I did for them, laid the expensive looking carpets, and had all the decorating done, that they are going to fork out for another piece of handrail, get the trades back into their house now they've moved into and rip out my handrail to have a new one put in, which involves sawing, gluing and sanding etc which will potentially make a whole new mess? I THINK NOT.

Much easier is: "Hee hee hee, we got a freebie!!"

But I'm onto them.

The clamps were not at their house, and I left it to them to get in touch with me once they had located them.

Ten minutes after I left, she called me saying she'd found them, they were with some builders on another job not too far from their house. I got the address, pulled a U turn and went to collect my clamps, which is something at least.

SO WHAT TO DO???!!!!

They have complained so much about the work I did for them that I eventually surrendered and refunded them every penny.

I had my doubts, but how can you argue with someone saying they don't like your work? One persons concept of quality is not necessarily the same as anothers. I had to believe that they would use the money they allowed for the handrail to go elsewhere for a "perfect" one.

But over a month later they haven't got a new one, my one is still there, sanded, stained and polished.

Does anyone else think they should pay me? They SAY they are not happy with the handrail, but not unhappy enough to not keep it.

How much time should they be allowed to replace the faulty one with a perfect one? A month? A year? Two years? That's enough time to get used to something and never do anything about it. And it was free.

This is my first post on here, and I skipped the introductions, my apologies.

If anyone can offer any advice on what to do about this I'd be very grateful.
I have a feeling it will end up in small claims court... unless anyone can tell me in advance that I would do better to steer clear of court?

I guess the first thing to do is to email them and enquire further about when they intend to replace my handrail?

Should I demand to see an invoice and photos of the new one if and when they buy it?

How long are they legally allowed to carry on using what I have supplied without paying for it?


Thanks in advance for any help.

Someone should make a website called checkacustomer

 

[swankypants69]

Couple of points

They never asked for a refund, you offered a refund

You offered a refund without condition that it would be returned or replaced

I don't have any legal experience, however a lot of law is about reasonable actions etc

I don't think by the sounds of it they have been particularly unreasonable, and also you have been too accommodating

I don't imagine there is any legal recourse you can now take, apart from what I said earlier on that you could probably take back what is rightfully yours

I can see why the situation is frustrating, but you have contributed partly to your predicament, but as a sole trader myself I do sympathise with you

You could perhaps write a letter noting that they have decided to keep the handrail, and as such you would appreciate payment for your work, but I wouldn't imagine it is worth spending any money pursuing this issue with legal action

 

[woodworker]

Thanks for the response swankypants69. Would an email work as well as a letter?

 

[Homer J Simpson]

Couple of points

They never asked for a refund, you offered a refund

You offered a refund without condition that it would be returned or replaced

I don't have any legal experience, however a lot of law is about reasonable actions etc

I don't think by the sounds of it they have been particularly unreasonable, and also you have been too accommodating

I don't imagine there is any legal recourse you can now take, apart from what I said earlier on that you could probably take back what is rightfully yours

I can see why the situation is frustrating, but you have contributed partly to your predicament, but as a sole trader myself I do sympathise with you

You could perhaps write a letter noting that they have decided to keep the handrail, and as such you would appreciate payment for your work, but I wouldn't imagine it is worth spending any money pursuing this issue with legal action

Either you completely misunderstood the OP's post, or I have!

Mind you it's 23:15 and I've had a few beers......,,

I read it as the OP was asking for more money for having to visit the site and fit item himself after two hours of trimming.

If that's the case, honestly, as the customer I would not be willing to pay more. I'd pay what was agreed as I would also have expected it to fit.

I don't see the problem, you made it too big, they told you, you fixed it, end of story - no additional payment needed. Just the agreed price.

 

[swankypants69]

I would imagine an email is just as effective as a letter

Keep it short, sweet, non-confrontational and let it act as a request for payment

It might be worth outlining that perhaps an option for removal is to be considered, or that might be worth saving for a follow up email if required

 

[swankypants69]

Without reading the post again, the customer only ever paid the deposit, never even the original full amount, never mind the extra requested by woodworker

And he has refunded the full deposit, so at the moment he has received zero and the customer has the product

Everything else I have said still stands, but like you say its now 23.25 and am very much ready for bed

 

[Matt1959]

you mention the new bit is not quite the same size or rather I think they did? they said its thinner? If I were the customer and someone made something to match an original I would not be happy if it were say on a width, more than 2mm out overall and thats allowing for 1mm each side as a 2mm step on one side would be excessive. How much thinner is it? that would define for me whether what you have produced is ok. I would say its either right or its wrong. If its wrong, its in the hands of the customer as to whether they accept it or not and also down to your negotiating skills in persuading them that newly fitted pieces are never the same

Personally I dont see how you will be able to march in and cut their handrail section out

They are obviously compromising on the end result (if its not identical) so logically there should be a compromise on the final price. Whether that involves getting more than the already paid deposit depends on how bad the match is IMHO

 

[Suzuki]

Easy to say with hindsight but I'd have pulled out a hacksaw and took a chunk of it with me as I left....

you're never going to get paid or get any tools back or get any more work from them so you might as well have left with the satisfaction that you destroyed the freebie you gave them.

 

[Spongebob]

Woodworker,

Sorry mate, but I'm afraid you've blown it.

I do have some sympathy as I am in a very similar line business myself and dealing with the public on bespoke projects can sometimes be stressful, but your first big mistake was in trying to charge extra for tweaking the handrail to make it fit.

You should have apologised for the slight mismatch and cheerfully put it right. A couple of hours with a block plane, a chisel, and some sandpaper is not worth falling out with your customer over when in all truth it should have been right first time. You could perhaps have built in some on-site adjustment time into your original quote; you really can't expect a site chippy to correct your error as part of his job. Many will, but you can't expect it.

Your petty-minded demand for more money to put right your own 'mistake' understandably antagonised your customer. This is always a very bad idea - particularly before you've been paid!

Your second big mistake was in refunding the deposit. By doing that you relinquished completely any negotiating position you had and by leaving the handrail in position in effect you gave it to the customer free of charge. Of course they didn't replace it with another one made elsewhere - they already had a perfectly good handrail in place at no cost!

You really have only yourself to blame in all this. Learn from the experience and do not repeat your mistakes.

 

[Spongebob]

I've just gone over to the Trades forum where you started an identical thread. Talk there is about you removing the handrail as "it belongs to you".

Be very careful. Legally speaking as soon as an item is fixed in place in someone's home or premises it becomes part of the fabric of the building and ownership of that item transfers to the owner of the property. Whether or not it has been paid for is irrelevent.

The handrail is now indisputedly the property of the customer. Whether or not they owe you money is a completely seperate matter and can only be established through negotiation or ultimately through the courts.

If you were to enter the customer's home and remove the handrail without permission you would be guilty of theft and/or vandalism. If however, the handrail was simply sitting in the hallway awaiting installation you might well have a claim over it.

The relevent point in law is whether the item in question has been afixed in place and is now part of 'the fabric of the building'.

My business is in fitted furniture so I have to know the legal niceties. Why do you think most kitchen companies insist on payment for the kitchen units before fitting takes place? As soon as they are screwed into position legal ownership transfers to the householder.

 

[Spongebob]

Does anyone else think they should pay me? They SAY they are not happy with the handrail, but not unhappy enough to not keep it.

How much time should they be allowed to replace the faulty one with a perfect one? A month? A year? Two years? That's enough time to get used to something and never do anything about it. And it was free.


I have a feeling it will end up in small claims court... unless anyone can tell me in advance that I would do better to steer clear of court?

I guess the first thing to do is to email them and enquire further about when they intend to replace my handrail?

Should I demand to see an invoice and photos of the new one if and when they buy it?

How long are they legally allowed to carry on using what I have supplied without paying for it?


Thanks in advance for any help.

There may be a moral reason why they should pay you, but there is no legal reason. Paying them back their deposit was tantamount to gifting them the handrail. Any contract you had with them ended at this point in time.

You should definitely steer clear of court. It will cost you money, stress and time - and you will lose!

There is no reason why the customer should be expected to replace the 'faulty' handrail with a new one. Ever. The choice, like the handrail, is theirs!

They are legally allowed to use what you have supplied without paying for it permanently.


As I pointed out initially - you've blown it!


Sorry for so many posts but Mrs Spongebob brought me my Full English, causing me to miss the ten minute editing cut-off!

 

[Homer J Simpson]

Ah, it was me (bad the beers), I didn't click the 'more' button on the Tapatalk app so only read half the OP's post, I didn't see he refunded the deposit etc.

I'd say just leave it, you gave them their money back because you didn't want the hassle, but now you're thinking about small claims court etc.

 

[cts1975]

If I was in your position I would draw a line under this. The time, money and patience this situation requires would be better spent elsewhere.

If you are not happy to draw a line under it maybe call them and say that you accept they are not happy with it. Then ask them when can you collect the handrail as you can use it for another job/customer?

May be in future, factor in the fitting and travel as part of the cost to the customer. The last thing you want is to hand over your carefully made handrail to another tradesman, too pick faults in. For me having it designed, made and fitted by the same person would suggest that any issues would be ironed out earlier on in the process.

Good luck either way.

 

[Cylon]

If anyone can offer any advice on what to do about this I'd be very grateful.
I have a feeling it will end up in small claims court... unless anyone can tell me in advance that I would do better to steer clear of court?

I'm sorry to say after studying your opening post theres very little you can do but walk away and chalk it down to bad decisions and supplying a product that didn't match the specifications.

I'm not sure how thinner what you supplied was than the original it had to match up to but I'm sure the difference will have been sanded out before polishing.

I do symphasise with you on this as your customer appears to have got away with a free hand rail and although you have contributed to the situation by asking for a charge to fit the handrail (its at this point the customer was put on the back foot) it wouldn't be too unreasonable a request if the chippy they hired in didn't have the skill set to fit your hand rail, but when you said it took two hours I can only surmise that the hand rail needed quite a few alterations.

Anyway all we can do is learn from our mistakes, maybe next time you quote offer a fitting service as well so you can not only make a bit more profit but also be assured that your craftsmanship has been given the best treatments and any issues won't be bought to the notice of the client.

Hindsight tells me you would have been better refunding the deposit once the bannister was removed and back in your possesion but thats life.

We all make mistakes and I make more than most so hopefully you can walk away from this as I can't envisage any court action that would result in a favourable conclusion.

 

[arcon5]

That poor customer was treated terribly... Not only was the product defective, her workman tried to overcharge her for rectifying his own mistake!! It ended well for them though and I doubt they have any sympathy for the workman who in their eyes tried to diddle them.

They could have in fact , up on discovering they was defective, rejected the goods and got a full refund.

Had you wanted the goods back you should have made this clear when you decided to refund the money.

I think the customer has benefitted from a catalogue of mistakes and failures on your companies behalf.

Less learnt... Move on and forget about it

 

[allthat]

Woodworker,

I sympathise with you, having been in the trade myself, if it makes you feel any better....then here goes.

(long story cut short)

A customer rang me and said they had a break in the night before and so wanted me to quote to build and install some high gates to the side of their house.
I quoted for two options, (1) 6ft high double gates fixed to existing posts, but not as sturdy/secure, (2) 6ft high double gates fixed to more sturdy/secure posts that would be concreated in - option 2 would cost more and take longer for posts to set & costs of posts etc.

Customer went for cheaper option 1.

I made the gates (huge could just get into van!) turned up and started fixing them into place etc, customer (who had been out all day at work) arrived home got out of car and said what the hell are you doing! Rather taken aback I said what are you talking about? He said that's no good I want them concreated in, I explained that he had gone for the cheaper option and that I was fixing them to the existing posts that was there as we had discussed. Because this was a emergency job nothing had been written down, no contract, bill of sale etc, so it was my word against his I suppose.

I can only presume that he either didn't like the look of them , or was trying his luck, knowing that I had paid for the materials etc (if I remember rightly I paid £100 for the timber, t-hinges, drop bolts, padlock, glue, screws) not to mention a days labour! and that I would bow to his wishes. I think the latter, because option 2 would have seen me there digging two holes and setting in posts two days prior to that day.

So, after a few heated words either way, me and my collegue set about taking the gates down and loading them back into the van, we put all the tools away and left, with the guy coming out asking what's going on, I am taking them back to the workshop for adjustments I said. Needless to say I was down in money, but up in satisfaction. I drove by a few weeks later and saw that he had a couple of fence panels up for gates! (obviously a cheap skate that couldn't afford my craftmanship!).

The moral of all this, stand your ground, get paid for what you do, not what someone would LIKE you to do.

Just my two pennith.

 

[Spongebob]

me and my collegue set about taking the gates down and loading them back into the van, we put all the tools away and left, with the guy coming out asking what's going on, I am taking them back to the workshop for adjustments I said.

Exactly what I've done on one occasion in the past when up against a totally unreasonable and unrealistic customer. I took away 2 bedrooms worth of doors and drawers "for adjustment" when it became clear that the only way I was ever going to get paid the final balance of a big job I was doing very well was if I jumped through a succession of ridiculous hoops set purely to satisfy the over-inflated ego of the client.

When he phoned me a week or so later demanding to know when I was going to return to finish off I took great delight in telling him to "F*** off".

Having insisted on stage payments as the job unfolded I was out of pocket only slightly and the satisfaction derived from being able to do this was immeasurable.

 

[maxine]

Hi

Unfortunately I think this went wrong when you decided to ask for adjustment money as the contract at that time excluded this.

It's also been a sub standard product and experience from your customers perspective

It was also your fault that you left the clamps there.

When you refunded the rail you didn't impose conditions at that time so it's unfair to now.

I think you also need to be careful about turning up unannouced in case it is intimidating to this customer

Let it go but work on changing things with your terms and conditions in future

 

[Homer J Simpson]

The last two replies before Maxine are all good and well if the customer was taking the pi$$. However, I think the OP is to blame on this one. Firstly it wasn't the right size (admitted in post when OP arrived and spent two hours sorting them), then OP tried to charge more (it seems because he felt the customer was getting 'free' work of either himself or the other carpenter getting on with other work).

These two alone would have made me send him packing, but of course if he then refunded my money and didn't say he wanted the rail back, what did he expect them to do?

They were not happy to have paid good money for poor workmanship, but it was free so thy kept it. Most likely not to pi$$ the OP off, but because they could live with it being slightly the wrong size if they didn't pay almost £500 for it.

Same as if you go to a nice place to eat and get really poor food/service. You'd feel cheated paying top price for it, but if the manager let you have it all for free, you'd be happy. I'd didn't change what happened, it changed how you felt about it.

Same as if OP had gone there and seen rail had cut back out and in the skip, he'd feel gutted, but not cheated.

It's all to easy to get annoyed with the customer and forget what they are feeling like.

And yes, I've had to deal with some very pedantic customer, I did it with a smile and now I've got more work from it.

Had the OP apologies and offered to replace & fit at no extra charge, I'm sure the customer would be more than happy to pay as well as recommend him.

 

[internetspaceships]

As Sponge and Homer have said, I'm afraid you screwed the pooch here OP.

I'd suggest you learn from this and draw a line under it. At least then you'll gain something from the whole sordid episode. Trying to charge for the time it took to trim the item was a serious fubar on your side.

Compounding this with refunding the deposit and then taking a long time to go and get your tools makes it all worse. Whilst I respect your candour in bringing this up on the forum I hope you're albe to take the constructive criticism it's resulted in.

Don't make any of the same mistakes again and you'll make back far more than you lost on this job. Look on the bright side, it wasn't a job worth ten grand!

Regards

Jon

 

[termsandconditions]

.....This is where the dispute starts.

I visited the site the very next day, and at the inconvenience of another client I had booked in, to go and do a job that someone who said they could do it....couldn't.

In my view, i was within my rights to ask for more money.

Their argument was: "It should fit exactly without any trimming"

My response: "Carving wood is an inexact process, and some trimming is nearly always required. I am not sure that your carpenter is as qualified for this particular job as he said he was"

Their response: "If it took you, the specialist woodworker, two hours, how was he ever going to be able to do it?".....

Hi woodworker. Sorry that you have conceded so much to your grasping and ungrateful client - time, money, materials, heartache. But I have to agree with others who say that as you have returned the deposit, any court action is now compromised even though you have complied with the Supply of Goods & Services Act 1982 by spending two hours refitting the original piece.

It is possible to protect your business cash flow against spurious and highly subjective complaints especially as your material is wood and much of your work is hand-crafted. Whilst your work still has to be 'fit for purpose' you can use your terms and conditions to remind customers that the organic material and bespoke nature of your work mean that look and appearance of the final product cannot be guaranteed. This may insulate you against future claims for defects.

It might also be sensible to include a Variations Clause in your terms of trade whereby the client agrees beforehand that any changes to the job will incur a change in the Price. If this is a common problem then you could augment this with a Variation Form with your terms on the reverse that you can use when the client asks you to do additional work or asks you to commit to additional expense whilst on the job. Keep a small stack in the van. There's nothing like a signature on a document to head off client arguments, misunderstandings and quibbles.

Best Regards