Customer requesting a refund for work carried out in 2019

[Colourmy]

Hi there. I have received some communication from a previous customer stating that the work we did has an issue with a leak. We have been back twice and sorted two issues since we did the work and now there is another leak.
Up until December 2020 , she was happily emailing or calling, ( 3 times since March 2019 and each time we attended) suddenly she isn't and has copied and pasted loads of things from CAB or DAS law website onto a letter and sent to me in the post.
She is requesting a full refund for the work carried which consisted of creating a roof from individual materials. She has had a builder out recently, who questioned our work to her, I subsequently sent someone over to take a look and prove that the builder was in fact talking rubbish.
I suspect she is being led down this path by this builder ( in the hope he gets the work) and is now sending me letters and not emailing or ringing me. I sent her a letter back stating my concerns and that the only course of action i'll be taking is to source and repair the leak.
She has sent another letter, not acknowledging my reply, with another demand for a refund.
I'm pretty sure I should be given the option to sort out ( she wouldn't get a refund anyway!) from a legal/ civil viewpoint prior to all this Copy and Paste rubbish she's sending.

The roof ( as any roof is i'd have thought) is a bespoke product made from individual components and at this point, any of those components could be faulty and i'm sure I should be given the the courtesy of eliminating and faulty issues? I have no problem with the customer, nor have I ever had a problem with her- our communication has always been polite and cordial.

Any pointers will be greatly appreciated

Many thanks
Steve

 

[kulture]

Roofs should not leak. From what you say it has leaked before and you have gone back twice to repair it. It still leaks. Based on what you say, I would be going to a new builder and asking for a full refund off you too.

 

[Colourmy]

Roofs should not leak. From what you say it has leaked before and you have gone back twice to repair it. It still leaks. Based on what you say, I would be going to a new builder and asking for a full refund off you too.

Ha Ha. Very good. I was trying to condense a lot into a short post.
At this point, the water is coming in above a Upvc window, NOT the roof as such but water finds it's way downwards so it could be nothing to do with us but as we were the last ones to do anything substantial, it is probably right to assume it's us I suppose.
I asked her if anyone had been on the roof, she was a bit sheepish and said no but I was doubtful about her reply. She has admitted to filling a crack above her Upvc window internally with silicone- again, I asked why did she seal anything and not call us.
We have been back and replaced the flashing and removed a few tiles from the front to check for damp beneath them but not an issue, so there are two more things to check- behind the guttering if someone has been resting ladders on it and deformed the plastic.
I'm happy to resolve the problem- no qualms at all, even if it isn't " our " problem but feel that all avenues should have been exhausted prior to sending letters.
Kulture- Storm damage might also be the problem from recent weather, without going there, I cannot see one way or another.

 

[Awinner2]

I would reply that you are willing to attend again and await her reply. That's if you feel obliged to. Otherwise, ignore her.

 

[Colourmy]

I would reply that you are willing to attend again and await her reply. That's if you feel obliged to. Otherwise, ignore her.

I'm a nice man and I'll happily sort it, given the chance. I just don't like the sudden change of tone, it smacks of someone interfering.

 

[Mr D]

I'm a nice man and I'll happily sort it, given the chance. I just don't like the sudden change of tone, it smacks of someone interfering.

Like she has mentioned it to someone else and they told her .....?

Either it is your problem or it is not.
If not then explain that to her.

 

[The Byre]

Legally and ethically, the situation is very simple. If the work is deemed defective, you must fix it. If on fixing the problem, you ascertain that the problem is not a result of anything you did, but the water ingress came from another source, you are entitled to invoice her for your hours spent finding and (if she agrees) fixing the problem.

As she seems to have the fixed idea that you are responsible, video the evidence and have a witness. If possible, show her where the water is coming from - though many housewives do not want to climb roofs, especially in Winter. There may be a reason for that, but I have not yet found out what it is.

The same applies to other contracts such as your telephone connection. Your wires defective - your problem and if BT fixes them, you pay! BT's wires defective, their problem and they fix it. Simples!

It helps if you put a clause to that effect in your T&Cs, despite the fact that the situation is covered by law - it does make things clear to the customer.

Water and roofs - in this weather with repeated freezing and melting, water can migrate through some pretty strange places and snow does and can travel uphill and then melt - often as a result of stupid architectural features that are not needed - or bodged home 'improvements' done years earlier using inappropriate materials (e.g. tin instead of lead). Explaining that to one of the thicker species of punter can test the most patient tradesman!

 

[Mr D]

Legally and ethically, the situation is very simple. If the work is deemed defective, you must fix it. If on fixing the problem, you ascertain that the problem is not a result of anything you did, but the water ingress came from another source, you are entitled to invoice her for your hours spent finding and (if she agrees) fixing the problem.

As she seems to have the fixed idea that you are responsible, video the evidence and have a witness. If possible, show her where the water is coming from - though many housewives do not want to climb roofs, especially in Winter. There may be a reason for that, but I have not yet found out what it is.

The same applies to other contracts such as your telephone connection. Your wires defective - your problem and if BT fixes them, you pay! BT's wires defective, their problem and they fix it. Simples!

It helps if you put a clause to that effect in your T&Cs, despite the fact that the situation is covered by law - it does make things clear to the customer.

Water and roofs - in this weather with repeated freezing and melting, water can migrate through some pretty strange places and snow does and can travel uphill and then melt - often as a result of stupid architectural features that are not needed - or bodged home 'improvements' done years earlier using inappropriate materials (e.g. tin instead of lead). Explaining that to one of the thicker species of punter can test the most patient tradesman!

BT charge you if they cannot find the problem at their end.
Even though the problem is at their end.

 

[Colourmy]

Legally and ethically, the situation is very simple. If the work is deemed defective, you must fix it. If on fixing the problem, you ascertain that the problem is not a result of anything you did, but the water ingress came from another source, you are entitled to invoice her for your hours spent finding and (if she agrees) fixing the problem.

As she seems to have the fixed idea that you are responsible, video the evidence and have a witness. If possible, show her where the water is coming from - though many housewives do not want to climb roofs, especially in Winter. There may be a reason for that, but I have not yet found out what it is.

The same applies to other contracts such as your telephone connection. Your wires defective - your problem and if BT fixes them, you pay! BT's wires defective, their problem and they fix it. Simples!

It helps if you put a clause to that effect in your T&Cs, despite the fact that the situation is covered by law - it does make things clear to the customer.

Water and roofs - in this weather with repeated freezing and melting, water can migrate through some pretty strange places and snow does and can travel uphill and then melt - often as a result of stupid architectural features that are not needed - or bodged home 'improvements' done years earlier using inappropriate materials (e.g. tin instead of lead). Explaining that to one of the thicker species of punter can test the most patient tradesman!

And therein lies the issue. She sent a letter last week stating she requires a refund, I responded by mail and she would have had that on Saturday or Monday and then today I receive another request dated 26/1 with more legal copy and pasted text- no mention of my letter or acknowledgement.
Foe whatever reason she feels that our 10 year guarantee- that we have to issue by law, somehow becomes irrelevant after 23 months and she can just ask for a refund like it is a thermos flask from Sainsburys!
The water ingress from her description and photo is at the top of some Upvc frames, so there is a possibility it is nothing to do with us and all to do with cheap Upvc windows that have no reinforcement and have warped in the heat and now it's cooler, the plastic doesn't fit right.

We have replaced flashing, checked eaves guards and front tiled edge, we need to check tracking back water behind guttering and fascia and then the frames themselves as is expected of us and we are more than happy to go and get to the bottom of it.

To ask for a refund under the Consumer Rights act of 2015 like it's a faulty DVD player, just seems odd to me considering her roof was once a pile of individual building materials that was turned into a roof, she seems to think it is something that just slides in and out and is disposable.
I am not going to refund on principle but if I did, I would then remove my " pile" of building materials and she'd be left with a gaping hole and a leak above her window now would seem like a bowl of cherries to what she'd be left with then.

Just seems odd and I thought everyone was meant to be given the opportunity to resolve and repair, particularly after nearly 2 years.
Thanks All.
Steve

 

[Rekkovitch]

I would be very unhappy if I were the customer and it kept leaking after your work. There must be a problem somewhere so, yes they are within their rights to ask for a refund if you can't fix the error.

Clearly you will be naturally putting your side forward in a good light but at the end of the day think of the stress on the customer for a poor job you have done.

Leaks cause so much damage , I would be furious myself

 

[Rekkovitch]

Your post comes across as quite bullish and confrontational. I'm guessing you see them as an 'inconvenience' because you are having to rectify a mistake that you have made?

At best you might strike lucky and they give up asking, at worst your company name and finances go through the mud all because of your attitude ?

Of course I could be wrong and you might be a lovely chap but your posts suggest very different !

 

[Colourmy]

I would be very unhappy if I were the customer and it kept leaking after your work. There must be a problem somewhere so, yes they are within their rights to ask for a refund if you can't fix the error.
Clearly you will be naturally putting your side forward in a good light but at the end of the day think of the stress on the customer for a poor job you have done.

Leaks cause so much damage , I would be furious myself

This leak has manifested itself 3 times in 3 years above plastic frames. The leak is very likely something to with us, an errant screw, a gap, undressed lead- I’m not disputing any of that, I’m questioning the request to go straight for a refund without giving us further opportunity to get to the bottom of it.
You say refund if we can’t fix it- that’s just the problem, we need the opportunity to do so.

We do 100 of these types of roof a year, we aren’t idiots.
Does a house builder refund the selling price of the house because of a snag list?
If your 2 year old car goes into limp mode after 20k miles , do you ask for your money back?
I’m suggesting that legally I’ve got a right to resolve as I have never ignored or dismissed her requests.
Am I right?
That’s all I’m asking.

 

[Rekkovitch]

Yes mistakes happen , most of us can hold our hands up to that including me. But to be honest you have had chances to sort it and have failed. If you are unable to resolve it why should the customer suffer?

I have used many trades people over the years , quite a few I have called back to sort issues and most of them resolved without drama. The ones that didn't or refused / ignored ended up with a negative review or me following up with action.

I dont pretend to be an expert on roofing as I am not. Equally I'm not an expert on cars or insurance but not my trade so thats why I would call in an expert. I would expect that person to be able to complete the job that I am paying for to my satisfaction.

If I take my van to the garage for a oil issue and they pop fairy washing up liquid in it maybe I should just say ' ah no worries ' ?

 

[Mr D]

This leak has manifested itself 3 times in 3 years above plastic frames. The leak is very likely something to with us, an errant screw, a gap, undressed lead- I’m not disputing any of that, I’m questioning the request to go straight for a refund without giving us further opportunity to get to the bottom of it.
You say refund if we can’t fix it- that’s just the problem, we need the opportunity to do so.

We do 100 of these types of roof a year, we aren’t idiots.
Does a house builder refund the selling price of the house because of a snag list?
If your 2 year old car goes into limp mode after 20k miles , do you ask for your money back?
I’m suggesting that legally I’ve got a right to resolve as I have never ignored or dismissed her requests.
Am I right?
That’s all I’m asking.

Yes, its normal to give the person a chance to resolve the matter.

After that .... the customer can get someone else in to correct the matter and chase you for payment. Have seen that happen a few times.

To go for refund? Is the problem that bad?

 

[Colourmy]

Your post comes across as quite bullish and confrontational. I'm guessing you see them as an 'inconvenience' because you are having to rectify a mistake that you have made?

At best you might strike lucky and they give up asking, at worst your company name and finances go through the mud all because of your attitude ?

Of course I could be wrong and you might be a lovely chap but your posts suggest very different !

Your post comes across as quite bullish and confrontational. I'm guessing you see them as an 'inconvenience' because you are having to rectify a mistake that you have made?

At best you might strike lucky and they give up asking, at worst your company name and finances go through the mud all because of your attitude ?

Of course I could be wrong and you might be a lovely chap but your posts suggest very different !

I find your two responses quite personal and borderline rude but I accept them because I’m asking for a legal stance viewpoint on the internet- I’m probably asking for it but because I’m not showing any emotion or empathy to a work transaction and you may well be likening this situation to something that has gone on in your life and made your own conclusions. That is your prerogative of course.
Im asking for some advice on a factual level, we aren’t in the habit of supplying inferior services, so not au fait with the legal side of things.
Leaks aren’t something that will often be fixed on one visit, unless there’s a gaping hole, it’s a process of elimination and a sprinkle with a hose doesn’t replicate an October storm.
So that elimination process may need 3 or 4 visits if it’s not straight forward.
Thanks

 

[Rekkovitch]

Boarderline rude ? OK if you say so , I'm guessing because I didnt pander to you and say ' there there its all going to be ok '?

Either way its you that have to deal with a problem you created and I would suggest you take on board feedback however blunt or 'rude' you feel it is and learn from it.

If I were you I would pay them , accept you got it badly wrong and move on...

 

[Rekkovitch]

Yes, its normal to give the person a chance to resolve the matter.

After that .... the customer can get someone else in to correct the matter and chase you for payment. Have seen that happen a few times.

To go for refund? Is the problem that bad?

Agree with Mr D , customer is within their right to go elsewhere , rectify fault with another builder and, upon receipt / inspection bill you for the remedy

 

[DontAsk]

just seems odd to me considering her roof was once a pile of individual building materials that was turned into a roof,

Just like any roof then.

she seems to think it is something that just slides in and out and is disposable.

To the customer it's a roof and should do what a roof is supposed to do. It doesn't matter whether you used trusses made off-site or hand crated a cut roof on site.

Were the uPVC windows fitted after the roof?

 

[Colourmy]

To go for refund? Is the problem that bad?[/QUOTE]

No, it is minor but still a leak that apparently is worse when the rain is heavier.
To be expected of course!

Boarderline rude ? OK if you say so , I'm guessing because I didnt pander to you and say ' there there its all going to be ok '?

Either way its you that have to deal with a problem you created and I would suggest you take on board feedback however blunt or 'rude' you feel it is and learn from it.

If I were you I would pay them , accept you got it badly wrong and move on...

Kind of what you wanted to say in your first post isn't it? ;-)
Thankfully you aren't me, or more to the point I'm not you
So I thank you if you did offer any advice based on my question and if you didn't, thanks anyway, I hope I helped you in some way.

Let me stress this, I'm not looking for any wannabe Martyn Lewis types, or those with a terrible experience, just clarification on my feeling and view that we have a right to resolve under our guarantee terms.
Thanks to the couple of posters who understood and answered accordingly.
I appreciate it.
Thanks

 

[Colourmy]

Just like any roof then.


To the customer it's a roof and should do what a roof is supposed to do. It doesn't matter whether you used trusses made off-site or hand crated a cut roof on site.
I think it does in the main and hence why she/they decided at one point to silicone above the frames to stop the "odd drip" and it has acted as a roof for nearly two years.


Were the uPVC windows fitted after the roof?
No, old and very cheap from what I recall too with opening issues at the time. Very possibly from distortion.

 

[Colourmy]

Agree with Mr D , customer is within their right to go elsewhere , rectify fault with another builder and, upon receipt / inspection bill you for the remedy

That isn't what she wants though. She wants a refund now for the roof. She doesn't want to communicate ( was fine in December) .
We offer a guarantee for 10 years. Customers also have an insurance backed guarantee - none of these are instant cash, they are there for the customer to call upon if required.
She's had a builder around to tinker or do something, she's sealed her own frames against water ingress, we could quite easily say we are steering well clear but we aren't, we absolutely want to fix for her.
My view is that we have every right to resolve and if we can't, THEN we discuss the alternatives.
Thanks

 

[Rekkovitch]

Just like any roof then.


To the customer it's a roof and should do what a roof is supposed to do. It doesn't matter whether you used trusses made off-site or hand crated a cut roof on site.

Were the uPVC windows fitted after the roof?

Exactly; a roof should do what a roof is supposed to do.

Unless of course you are the author of this post and want the roof to do what it likes and the owner to quietly disappear so you can move onto the next poor sod

Have fun !

 

[MBE2017]

I would suggest you take legal advice for your own protection, and consider offering to pay for an independent building surveyor to attend and prepare a report. I would even offer to pay for the report initially or if you are at fault in anyway.

You need to try and get a dialogue going again ASAP, provide a large list of surveyors and suggest she chooses the one to use, with a copy being sent to both of you.

 

[Colourmy]

Exactly; a roof should do what a roof is supposed to do.

Unless of course you are the author of this post and want the roof to do what it likes and the owner to quietly disappear so you can move onto the next poor sod

Have fun !

Thankfully we have managed to escape this rogue trader brush you are clearly tarring us with and have about an 85% recommendation rate.
Again, iI'm sorry that someone has hurt you in the past but you can't keep taking it out on strangers on the t'interweb, it's unhealthy!
Peace out!

 

[swankypants69]

I personally think you are being professional and reasonable and you want to fix the problem

So I think some of the criticism on here is a little unfair, there’s probably not a lot of tradesman on here

I’m not a builder, but have had a few extensions done. Even the best of tradesman make mistakes. Like you point out finding where water is coming from can be hard work

Sometimes a bad storm can blow water into places that it has no right to get to

I think a refund is out of the question, but I can see why your customer is a bit annoyed

The suggestion of an independent building surveyor might be a good way forward, even if it costs a few hundred quid

If he says it’s not your work that’s the problem, if he identifies the problem, and it’s a cheap fix, do it for free

If it’s not, quote to fix it

Forget about the profit you made on it first time round, and just look to come out evens on the job with a happy customer

But like another member said, you need to try and get open dialogue going again

Phone up all nicey nicey, explain you want to fix the problem and have a positive outcome all round, but it won’t include a full refund

I’m pretty sure once materials form part of a building, you can’t really remove them as they become part of the fabric of the building, or something along those lines

 

[Financial-Modeller]

Given everything you have said here @Colourmy , it seems obvious that your customer has rightly given you several opportunities to fix the problem, which you haven't done to her satisfaction. She has sensibly asked for another opinion, and is now asking you for a refund, before she pursues you for the refund plus costs through the court system. Given the insight that you have provided my money would be on her winning.

You will probably consider this news to be rude, and equally will complain to everybody that being sued is unjustified.

Your choices at this stage would seem to be do everything you can to ensure that her property is watertight, or refund her in full.

 

[Rekkovitch]

Given everything you have said here @Colourmy , it seems obvious that your customer has rightly given you several opportunities to fix the problem, which you haven't done to her satisfaction. She has sensibly asked for another opinion, and is now asking you for a refund, before she pursues you for the refund plus costs through the court system. Given the insight that you have provided my money would be on her winning.

You will probably consider this news to be rude, and equally will complain to everybody that being sued is unjustified.

Your choices at this stage would seem to be do everything you can to ensure that her property is watertight, or refund her in full.

There you go , another person who agrees with me , I guess this person must also be 'rude' as they too think your inadequacy to remedy unsatisfactory work you conducted

 

[Rekkovitch]

Thankfully we have managed to escape this rogue trader brush you are clearly tarring us with and have about an 85% recommendation rate.
Again, iI'm sorry that someone has hurt you in the past but you can't keep taking it out on strangers on the t'interweb, it's unhealthy!
Peace out!

Lol! That reply actually cracked me up ! Is the 85% made up of family and friends and the 15% the other customers ? Only one who seems hurt is your customers , not me!

 

[Colourmy]

Given everything you have said here @Colourmy , it seems obvious that your customer has rightly given you several opportunities to fix the problem, which you haven't done to her satisfaction. She has sensibly asked for another opinion, and is now asking you for a refund, before she pursues you for the refund plus costs through the court system. Given the insight that you have provided my money would be on her winning.

You will probably consider this news to be rude, and equally will complain to everybody that being sued is unjustified.

Your choices at this stage would seem to be do everything you can to ensure that her property is watertight, or refund her in full.

I appreciate you taking the time to reply but as alluded to earlier, it can take 3 or 4 attempts to find a small water leak. On the last occasion it was raining so what the guys attempted was probably futile. The next I heard was the first letter last week.
We will always resolve a leak. If it needed 100 visits, we’ll still get it in the end. I don’t want anyone to have a leak. When your business is roofs having leaks can be quite detrimental!
I do get the impression that most are just assuming I’m trying to wriggle out of my commitment to this customer but that is just wrong and a bit unfair but it’s the internet and I’ll take it on the chin but the veiled assumption I’m some sort of rogue trader are way off beam.
I might not have pointed out but the information passed on from her builder was mis information regarding lead flashing. We pointed this out to her last time with photos so I’m not being difficult but it seems to me that the builder has his sights set on something and MAY be encouraging her down this path as though I’ve ignored her and can’t be contacted. Nothing could be further from the truth, every call I’ll answer or at least call back. I save very few numbers so I have no idea who is calling me most of the time.
I also understand that most service oriented professionals have little time for rough arsed builders so I am not offended by your opinion.

 

[Colourmy]

Lol! That reply actually cracked me up ! Is the 85% made up of family and friends and the 15% the other customers ? Only one who seems hurt is your customers , not me!

Now you are just desperate for me to engage with you.
Try local community groups , I’m too busy for any stalkers!

 

[Colourmy]

There you go , another person who agrees with me , I guess this person must also be 'rude' as they too think your inadequacy to remedy unsatisfactory work you conducted

You mean another person that didn’t read the question asked and was too keen to make assumptions in the reply.
So answer me a question please?
If you bought a car 18 months ago and it developed a fault. You took it back to the garage and it wasn’t fixed, you returned on two more occasions and that didn’t resolve it. Do you demand your money back and go silent or do you listen to the dealership when they tell you it will be resolved but we need more hours with your car?
I think I know what you are going to try and suggest you’d do but the reality is, no one would be getting their money back for a mystery rattle or squeak and any court in the land would side with the dealership to get it resolved and if it can’t, come up with an alternative solution.
This notion that refunds are just something that can be demanded as and when is just fantasy.

 

[Colourmy]

I personally think you are being professional and reasonable and you want to fix the problem

So I think some of the criticism on here is a little unfair, there’s probably not a lot of tradesman on here

I’m not a builder, but have had a few extensions done. Even the best of tradesman make mistakes. Like you point out finding where water is coming from can be hard work

Sometimes a bad storm can blow water into places that it has no right to get to

I think a refund is out of the question, but I can see why your customer is a bit annoyed

The suggestion of an independent building surveyor might be a good way forward, even if it costs a few hundred quid

If he says it’s not your work that’s the problem, if he identifies the problem, and it’s a cheap fix, do it for free

If it’s not, quote to fix it

Forget about the profit you made on it first time round, and just look to come out evens on the job with a happy customer

But like another member said, you need to try and get open dialogue going again

Phone up all nicey nicey, explain you want to fix the problem and have a positive outcome all round, but it won’t include a full refund

I’m pretty sure once materials form part of a building, you can’t really remove them as they become part of the fabric of the building, or something along those lines

Thanks. I’m not looking for sympathy, just realistic viewpoints of which yours is , so thanks For taking the time to reply.
Thanks

 

[Red Wood]

A full refund is unlikely to be awarded if it were to go down the legal route in most cases unless you have done a real pig of a job. An independent surveyor as mentioned above is the way to go.

What the surveyor reports back will then determine which way to proceed. If they find the work is not fit for purpose you are going to have a headache, however if they find anything other than not fit for purpose, you can remedy the issue and that'll be the end of it regardless of how many legal type letters the client sends.

Speak to a solicitor in the mean time and plan ahead for every possible outcome regardless of which way the liability may fall.

Keep all evidence, correspondence and proof you have showed willing.

 

[The Byre]

Speak to a solicitor in the meantime and plan ahead for every possible outcome regardless of which way the liability may fall.
Keep all evidence, correspondence and proof you have showed willing.

That is probably the only sensible advice you should pay heed to - ignore the rest as uninformed drivel.

 

[Awinner2]

Ask your solicitor for their advice and then act on it. Show them what she has posted to you. Solicitor could send a letter for you laying out what you are prepared to do to resolve the situation (if they think that is the correct way forwards).

 

[Frank the Insurance guy]

I wouldn't necessarily go spending on legal advice as yet.

Check your Insurance policy - many will give you free telephone legal advice on any business related matter.

You have been reasonable in being clear that you are prepared to revisit and rectify any issues. There is little more you can do if she will no longer communicate with you.

I would suggest replying to each letter you receive with a simple "...as per my previous letter, we are happy to visit to investigate the issue and if relating to our work, will carry out any remedial action needed".....

I understand the onus is on them to give you the opportunity to rectify any problems with your work (I'm not sure how many changes you get to do this!)

If they want to sue you, they will have to:
1. Prove your poor workmanship
2. Prove their "financial loss" - this could be the cost of repair, or in the case of a complete failure, could be a full refund of the work!...But they have to prove you are to blame!

I wouldn't spend any money on surveyors etc to carry out formal inspections. It is them that have to prove it, so let them appoint and pay for a surveyor if they think that will help them prove things on their side.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

To clarify, you say you've previously been called out to deal with two issues and this latest is the third. Is this two separate issues in two different areas or the same area causing a repeat problem?

I have some sympathy...
3 years ago we sat in bed with water dripping on our faces and determined it was getting past the flashing around the chimney that sat in a valley. Re-pointed, sorted the flashing but it took 2 years and a stroke of luck to find the problem!

It turned out that a minimal amount of Moss that was knocked off the roof was sliding into the valley and had been prevented from being washed away by a 1/2" deep piece of broken chimney pointing mortar some 10 ft from the point of ingress. The water was backing up and finding it's way under the tiles. This was only happening in very severe downpours, flash floods. We were only checking and testing when it was dry!