- Original Poster
- #1
Hi everyone,
Today, I dropped in unexpected on a customer who wouldn't pay me for some work I did for them a month or so ago, to collect some tools that I had left behind, which they said they would post to me, but didn't, and as it turns out actually gave them to their builders. They were a bit shocked to see me.
The job I did was a carved section of continuous handrail, to join some landing handrail double backing on itself down to some pitched handrail.
I quoted them £487.00 + vat for materials and labour.
Deposit required: £224.40 (inc vat)
Balance on completion:£360 (inc vat)
They were happy with this price so transferred the deposit, and when it showed in my account, I ordered the materials.
It took me three days to make, before I couriered it to them for the on site carpenter to fit, as agreed.
A few days later, I got a call from the client saying the carpenter was unable to fit it, due to being the wrong size. This is never what you want to hear, but after wondering about the realistic capabilities of the carpenter, I agreed to visit the site to fit it myself.
When I got there, I must admit that the carved section did indeed need a little trimming to get it to fit correctly, which I did in about 2 hours.
This is where the dispute starts.
I visited the site the very next day, and at the inconvenience of another client I had booked in, to go and do a job that someone who said they could do it....couldn't.
In my view, i was within my rights to ask for more money.
Their argument was: "It should fit exactly without any trimming"
My response: "Carving wood is an inexact process, and some trimming is nearly always required. I am not sure that your carpenter is as qualified for this particular job as he said he was"
Their response: "If it took you, the specialist woodworker, two hours, how was he ever going to be able to do it?"
My response: "I don't know him, or his capabilities, but he said he could do it and that is what we agreed. While I was doing the job he was supposed to do , he was taking care of other duties on site for your benefit. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask to be paid for my time."
Their response: "Well I'll have to speak to my husband"
My response: "Fine, when will that be"
Her response: "He's in meetings this morning, it'll have to be this afternoon."
And we left it at that. I cleared up my tools, all but two clamps, loaded up the van and left.
Later I got a call from her husband ready for a debate about what had happened. His argument was largely the same as what she said, and they refused to pay any extra, because "it should have been perfect".
Due to being very busy with other jobs, I decided I wouldn't waste my energy on this and said "Fine, just pay what we agreed, but would you please put my clamps in the post, as I live more than and hour away from you, and I travelled to you immediately to solve your problem for free"
He said "Ok"
Then later, I got another call;
"There's a problem with the handrial, it's a bit thinner that the rest"
What could I do?
"Right... ok... I'll offer you a discount. What would seem reasonable to you?"
Him: "No thats not good enough, it's got to be right, I want another one"
Me: "....... that is going to be very difficult, I am extremely busy..."
Him: "Well when can you do it"
Me: "I am booked solid until November" (This was in September 2012)
Him "Well I suppose that will have to do"
So it's gone from "It doesn't fit" to "I don't want to pay" to " I want another one and won't pay anything else until I get one"
I agree this probably seems like something I should honour, but honestly, in my opinion, the handrail was not a bad job. Yes it was slightly different from the rest, but nothing drastic. I really had a strong feeling they were fishing for a freebie. It was towards the end of their renovation project, and they had probably splashed out a bit to much, and were look for ways to cut costs.
After that conversation finished, I prowled around the workshop for a bit muttering and swearing, and then became quite angry. What if they didn't like the next one??!!, how MUCH TIME was i going to waste here?
I decided to cut my losses. I called him back and asked him for his account details to arrange a refund for their deposit, so that I could wash my hands of them.
It was hard to do, but it felt like the best thing to do was cut and run, and try to forget about them getting some beautiful handrail for free, no matter how much I couldn't get the image of them gloating over it with their dinner guests at their housewarming party.
So that was it, they won, I lost.
All that was left was my two clamps. They said they would send them, but after a couple of weeks, nothing. I texted them to ask if they would be sending my clamps, they replied yes, but another two weeks, still nothing.
So today I was in the area, and finished a job early. I thought I would go and see if I could get the clamps.
I arrived, rang the doorbell, and you should have seen her face!
I said "Hi! Can i grab my clamps please??"
She stammers "Y..yes I'll just go and look"
Me: "Great thanks."
While she's looking, I wander in and notice that my handrail has not been removed and replaced with one from another joiner, and has actually been sanded and polished instead, and actually looks bloody good, if I don't say so myself.
I questioned her about it, and she said that getting a new one is on their snagging list. I find this hard to believe. Does she really expect me to believe that after they have stained and polished the one I did for them, laid the expensive looking carpets, and had all the decorating done, that they are going to fork out for another piece of handrail, get the trades back into their house now they've moved into and rip out my handrail to have a new one put in, which involves sawing, gluing and sanding etc which will potentially make a whole new mess? I THINK NOT.
Much easier is: "Hee hee hee, we got a freebie!!"
But I'm onto them.
The clamps were not at their house, and I left it to them to get in touch with me once they had located them.
Ten minutes after I left, she called me saying she'd found them, they were with some builders on another job not too far from their house. I got the address, pulled a U turn and went to collect my clamps, which is something at least.
SO WHAT TO DO???!!!!
They have complained so much about the work I did for them that I eventually surrendered and refunded them every penny.
I had my doubts, but how can you argue with someone saying they don't like your work? One persons concept of quality is not necessarily the same as anothers. I had to believe that they would use the money they allowed for the handrail to go elsewhere for a "perfect" one.
But over a month later they haven't got a new one, my one is still there, sanded, stained and polished.
Does anyone else think they should pay me? They SAY they are not happy with the handrail, but not unhappy enough to not keep it.
How much time should they be allowed to replace the faulty one with a perfect one? A month? A year? Two years? That's enough time to get used to something and never do anything about it. And it was free.
This is my first post on here, and I skipped the introductions, my apologies.
If anyone can offer any advice on what to do about this I'd be very grateful.
I have a feeling it will end up in small claims court... unless anyone can tell me in advance that I would do better to steer clear of court?
I guess the first thing to do is to email them and enquire further about when they intend to replace my handrail?
Should I demand to see an invoice and photos of the new one if and when they buy it?
How long are they legally allowed to carry on using what I have supplied without paying for it?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Someone should make a website called checkacustomer.
Today, I dropped in unexpected on a customer who wouldn't pay me for some work I did for them a month or so ago, to collect some tools that I had left behind, which they said they would post to me, but didn't, and as it turns out actually gave them to their builders. They were a bit shocked to see me.
The job I did was a carved section of continuous handrail, to join some landing handrail double backing on itself down to some pitched handrail.
I quoted them £487.00 + vat for materials and labour.
Deposit required: £224.40 (inc vat)
Balance on completion:£360 (inc vat)
They were happy with this price so transferred the deposit, and when it showed in my account, I ordered the materials.
It took me three days to make, before I couriered it to them for the on site carpenter to fit, as agreed.
A few days later, I got a call from the client saying the carpenter was unable to fit it, due to being the wrong size. This is never what you want to hear, but after wondering about the realistic capabilities of the carpenter, I agreed to visit the site to fit it myself.
When I got there, I must admit that the carved section did indeed need a little trimming to get it to fit correctly, which I did in about 2 hours.
This is where the dispute starts.
I visited the site the very next day, and at the inconvenience of another client I had booked in, to go and do a job that someone who said they could do it....couldn't.
In my view, i was within my rights to ask for more money.
Their argument was: "It should fit exactly without any trimming"
My response: "Carving wood is an inexact process, and some trimming is nearly always required. I am not sure that your carpenter is as qualified for this particular job as he said he was"
Their response: "If it took you, the specialist woodworker, two hours, how was he ever going to be able to do it?"
My response: "I don't know him, or his capabilities, but he said he could do it and that is what we agreed. While I was doing the job he was supposed to do , he was taking care of other duties on site for your benefit. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask to be paid for my time."
Their response: "Well I'll have to speak to my husband"
My response: "Fine, when will that be"
Her response: "He's in meetings this morning, it'll have to be this afternoon."
And we left it at that. I cleared up my tools, all but two clamps, loaded up the van and left.
Later I got a call from her husband ready for a debate about what had happened. His argument was largely the same as what she said, and they refused to pay any extra, because "it should have been perfect".
Due to being very busy with other jobs, I decided I wouldn't waste my energy on this and said "Fine, just pay what we agreed, but would you please put my clamps in the post, as I live more than and hour away from you, and I travelled to you immediately to solve your problem for free"
He said "Ok"
Then later, I got another call;
"There's a problem with the handrial, it's a bit thinner that the rest"
What could I do?
"Right... ok... I'll offer you a discount. What would seem reasonable to you?"
Him: "No thats not good enough, it's got to be right, I want another one"
Me: "....... that is going to be very difficult, I am extremely busy..."
Him: "Well when can you do it"
Me: "I am booked solid until November" (This was in September 2012)
Him "Well I suppose that will have to do"
So it's gone from "It doesn't fit" to "I don't want to pay" to " I want another one and won't pay anything else until I get one"
I agree this probably seems like something I should honour, but honestly, in my opinion, the handrail was not a bad job. Yes it was slightly different from the rest, but nothing drastic. I really had a strong feeling they were fishing for a freebie. It was towards the end of their renovation project, and they had probably splashed out a bit to much, and were look for ways to cut costs.
After that conversation finished, I prowled around the workshop for a bit muttering and swearing, and then became quite angry. What if they didn't like the next one??!!, how MUCH TIME was i going to waste here?
I decided to cut my losses. I called him back and asked him for his account details to arrange a refund for their deposit, so that I could wash my hands of them.
It was hard to do, but it felt like the best thing to do was cut and run, and try to forget about them getting some beautiful handrail for free, no matter how much I couldn't get the image of them gloating over it with their dinner guests at their housewarming party.
So that was it, they won, I lost.
All that was left was my two clamps. They said they would send them, but after a couple of weeks, nothing. I texted them to ask if they would be sending my clamps, they replied yes, but another two weeks, still nothing.
So today I was in the area, and finished a job early. I thought I would go and see if I could get the clamps.
I arrived, rang the doorbell, and you should have seen her face!
I said "Hi! Can i grab my clamps please??"
She stammers "Y..yes I'll just go and look"
Me: "Great thanks."
While she's looking, I wander in and notice that my handrail has not been removed and replaced with one from another joiner, and has actually been sanded and polished instead, and actually looks bloody good, if I don't say so myself.
I questioned her about it, and she said that getting a new one is on their snagging list. I find this hard to believe. Does she really expect me to believe that after they have stained and polished the one I did for them, laid the expensive looking carpets, and had all the decorating done, that they are going to fork out for another piece of handrail, get the trades back into their house now they've moved into and rip out my handrail to have a new one put in, which involves sawing, gluing and sanding etc which will potentially make a whole new mess? I THINK NOT.
Much easier is: "Hee hee hee, we got a freebie!!"
But I'm onto them.
The clamps were not at their house, and I left it to them to get in touch with me once they had located them.
Ten minutes after I left, she called me saying she'd found them, they were with some builders on another job not too far from their house. I got the address, pulled a U turn and went to collect my clamps, which is something at least.
SO WHAT TO DO???!!!!
They have complained so much about the work I did for them that I eventually surrendered and refunded them every penny.
I had my doubts, but how can you argue with someone saying they don't like your work? One persons concept of quality is not necessarily the same as anothers. I had to believe that they would use the money they allowed for the handrail to go elsewhere for a "perfect" one.
But over a month later they haven't got a new one, my one is still there, sanded, stained and polished.
Does anyone else think they should pay me? They SAY they are not happy with the handrail, but not unhappy enough to not keep it.
How much time should they be allowed to replace the faulty one with a perfect one? A month? A year? Two years? That's enough time to get used to something and never do anything about it. And it was free.
This is my first post on here, and I skipped the introductions, my apologies.
If anyone can offer any advice on what to do about this I'd be very grateful.
I have a feeling it will end up in small claims court... unless anyone can tell me in advance that I would do better to steer clear of court?
I guess the first thing to do is to email them and enquire further about when they intend to replace my handrail?
Should I demand to see an invoice and photos of the new one if and when they buy it?
How long are they legally allowed to carry on using what I have supplied without paying for it?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Someone should make a website called checkacustomer.
