Business qualifications

[Ivanzyt]

What is everyone's thoughts on business qualifications like business studies degrees or MBA's?

While they are not necessary for success in business my personal view is that they are a useful complement to practical experience. I would look more favorably on someone with experience and relevant domain expertise if they had an MBA than if they didn't, for example.

Of course, if it were a blank choice between academic qualifications or hands-on experience then experience wins every time, obviously.

 

[Newchodge]

What is everyone's thoughts on business qualifications like business studies degrees or MBA's?

While they are not necessary for success in business my personal view is that they are a useful complement to practical experience. I would look more favorably on someone with experience and relevant domain expertise if they had an MBA than if they didn't, for example.

Of course, if it were a blank choice between academic qualifications or hands-on experience then experience wins every time, obviously.

Do you mean for an employee or for a supplier?

 

[fisicx]

Depends on the business and the role. If you need someone to stack shelves it's not needed. If you need a graphic designer it's not relevant. If you need someone to get new clients you just need a proven track record.

 

[Mark T Jones]

Whilst it's currently fashionable to play down academia, there is a lot of benefit to learning and understanding stuff beyond the trial and error approach.

I'd say the optimum is learning mixed with hands on experience

Faced with either/or, then it would entirely depend on the role

 

[Ivanzyt]

Do you mean for an employee or for a supplier?

For an employee and for a management / senior role.

 

[Ivanzyt]

Depends on the business and the role. If you need someone to stack shelves it's not needed. If you need a graphic designer it's not relevant. If you need someone to get new clients you just need a proven track record.

Sure.

 

[Ivanzyt]

Whilst it's currently fashionable to play down academia, there is a lot of benefit to learning and understanding stuff beyond the trial and error approach.

I'd say the optimum is learning mixed with hands on experience

Faced with either/or, then it would entirely depend on the role

Yes, I too have noticed the anti-academia trend as part of an overall anti-intellectual trend. It's a bit worrying to me.

 

[cjd]

More relevant to large companies than small, owner managed businesses.
Useful for an employee hoping to progress.
Interesting to do as an individual.
More valuable to the individual than the business unless your in consultancy where the strategy jargon is a requirement.

 

[Ivanzyt]

More relevant to large companies than small, owner managed businesses.
Useful for an employee hoping to progress.
Interesting to do as an individual.
More valuable to the individual than the business unless your in consultancy where the strategy jargon is a requirement.

Hmmmm I'm not sure agree. I use my MBA stuff all the time in my owner-managed business. It gave me a more balanced perspective on business as I came up through the sales side of things and until I did my MBA I didn't really have much exposure to HR or accounting or other back office functions. Whilst those studies certainly didn't make me an expert in those things it gave me enough knowledge to at least know if I was being bullshited by a supposed expert (which is an important thing)

But I guess it is how you define "small" if it's under 10 people the I guess there is limited scope for deploying such things.

 

[cjd]

My employer paid for my MBA (full time on full salary at Warwick - fools!). I really enjoyed it and learned a lot - most of it useless but interesting anyway.

One thing I do remember is the car park filling up with very, very expensive cars as a load of self-made millionaires arrive for an afternoon of marketing lectures from one of our reasonably famous lecturers. It did make me think - who's teaching who?

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

You dont need it to make a business a success if fact some of these people are a total liability

Something different from me
The degree is not for building a business but I would say important for social standing these days

 

[WaveJumper]

I once worked for a company (I was not aware at the time when applying) they interviewed 1,010 people took on 12 and i was one of them. We sat in a room and did the usual round the group meeting thing (again at this point i was still unaware) they all had first degree honer pass's in something or the other apart from dear old me who had previous management experience and one other who was an internal promotion.

I thought oh sh**t I am out of my depth here until the head of training pointed to the others and said "look after these two sitting over there as you are going to be relying on them a lot over the coming 18 months as you have no idea what's coming".

She was right they had absolutely know common sense or life skills at all. I could write a book about those 18 months it was a real eye opener. We spent one whole morning teaching them how to work out percentages.

Personally I believe (nailing my colours to the mast now) the universities are just a huge money making machine, selling the dream, ok some professions may require a degree of some sort but as an example "Theme Park Management" give me a break.

So as they say pay's your money and make your choice but nothing in my book beats a bit of common sense, and maybe more emphasis on the many forms of work experience availble out there.

 

[Newchodge]

I once worked for a company (I was not aware at the time when applying) they interviewed 1,010 people took on 12 and i was one of them. We sat in a room and did the usual round the group meeting thing (again at this point i was still unaware) they all had first degree honer pass's in something or the other apart from dear old me who had previous management experience and one other who was an internal promotion.

I thought oh sh**t I am out of my depth here until the head of training pointed to the others and said "look after these two sitting over there as you are going to be relying on them a lot over the coming 18 months as you have no idea what's coming".

She was right they had absolutely know common sense or life skills at all. I could write a book about those 18 months it was a real eye opener. We spent one whole morning teaching them how to work out percentages.

Personally I believe (nailing my colours to the mast now) the universities are just a huge money making machine, selling the dream, ok some professions may require a degree of some sort but as an example "Theme Park Management" give me a break.

So as they say pay's your money and make your choice but nothing in my book beats a bit of common sense, and maybe more emphasis on the many forms of work experience availble out there.

That would make me worry about the abilities of the other 998 people!

 

[fisicx]

Getting trained for a specific role/purpose makes sense (eg Crane operator) but I not sure employing someone because of a generic business or management qualification is always sensible. If they had 10 years as a senior manager in some corporation and had an equivalent qualification then you could well have a winner.

There is a thread here about someone doing a high level coaching and mentoring qualification without a history of coaching and mentoring. Get the experience first then advance through a series of suitable qualifications.

 

[Ivanzyt]

Personally I believe (nailing my colours to the mast now) the universities are just a huge money making machine, selling the dream, ok some professions may require a degree of some sort but as an example "Theme Park Management" give me a break.

I partially agree. I think there are many micky mouse degrees these days which are basically pointless as they lack rigor. But there are still plenty of good academic degrees worth doing. What a good academic degree gives is not so much specific knowledge to do something useful but the discipline of structured thinking and problem-solving. Some degrees obviously are vocational and deliver domain-specific knowledge (law for example) but for the most part the benefit of a good degree is not what you learn but how you learn. It's about learning to learn.

My undergrad degree was in physics and philosophy. I didn't use much of the "stuff" I learned in either discipline in my early career which was in sales. Later I did start to use the physics as I moved into an engineering company but even then it was only really the basic stuff. But what has always been useful is the structure of thinking and writing and problem solving studying these disciplines gave me. I have noticed that sometimes even very experienced managers who lack an academic background struggle to structure their thinking well, especially in written reports.

The other thing that a STEM degree will give you is an understanding of maths, stats and data. It shocks me to this date how poor most people are at interpreting data! Even people with fancy MA degrees can't seem to read a graph properly. In this data-driven world if you don't know how to interpret data anyone is wide open to manipulation. As the saying goes "There are lies, dammed lies, and statistics" stats can be manipulated but if you know how stats work those manipulations can be spotted.

 

[Annoying Donkey]

... but nothing in my book beats a bit of common sense...

And that's something that can't be taught...

 

[Chris Ashdown]

The universities teach one to investigate and explore area's outside your present experience , all education has its place, but universities nowadays are only interested in making as much money as they can making courses that are nearly irrelevant. I did not go to university as straight into the armed forces at 15. It's only 12 years later in civvy street that I went ack to college to understanding Hydrographic Surveying that gave me the in-depth knowledge to understand the subject in further depth

The same knowledge could have been obtained by the Open university over time, alternatively you could spend 3 years of your life at a traditional university and spending very little time on the subject and more time selling big macs.

Big companies use the excuse that the ability to study at university is a easy way to sort out their requirement for new staff and all that matters is the holder has some sort of degree be it nuclear physics or the ability to know about Shakespeare or maybe Latin all with knowledge that has no bearing on the vacancy
Open university may well be a far better investment in the long run

 

[Newchodge]

I partially agree. I think there are many micky mouse degrees these days which are basically pointless as they lack rigor. But there are still plenty of good academic degrees worth doing. What a good academic degree gives is not so much specific knowledge to do something useful but the discipline of structured thinking and problem-solving. Some degrees obviously are vocational and deliver domain-specific knowledge (law for example) but for the most part the benefit of a good degree is not what you learn but how you learn. It's about learning to learn.

My undergrad degree was in physics and philosophy. I didn't use much of the "stuff" I learned in either discipline in my early career which was in sales. Later I did start to use the physics as I moved into an engineering company but even then it was only really the basic stuff. But what has always been useful is the structure of thinking and writing and problem solving studying these disciplines gave me. I have noticed that sometimes even very experienced managers who lack an academic background struggle to structure their thinking well, especially in written reports.

The other thing that a STEM degree will give you is an understanding of maths, stats and data. It shocks me to this date how poor most people are at interpreting data! Even people with fancy MA degrees can't seem to read a graph properly. In this data-driven world if you don't know how to interpret data anyone is wide open to manipulation. As the saying goes "There are lies, dammed lies, and statistics" stats can be manipulated but if you know how stats work those manipulations can be spotted.

Understanding stats and data is not limited to a STEM degree. My degree in archaeology and anthropology included a great deal of statistical analysis.

 

[Mark T Jones]

I'd throw in a couple of points here

Firstly - to differentiate between education and qualifications - ideally qualifications are the outcome of education. This works if the qualifications haven't been obtained by paying, shortcuts or cheating.

Secondly - in a nutshell, I don't believe anyone who says what they were taught has never been of use (this includes the idea that school maths is no use in life). If you've studied with intent to learn , it will be of value throughout your life & career.

To come full circle though, there will always be a juggling act between education & experience.

 

[fisicx]

I did my degree with the OU. But didn't start until I was much older. It made the process much easier as I had a bit of nous. Going straight from GSCE to A-levels - University is all wrong. There really should be a gap year to discover life outside education. That way you find out if you really do want to go to Uni. Or you might be lucky and get the company to pay for your degree.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

Most people that do an MBA are on a career path, however, it can help in some small businesses/startups.

The issue comes from people taking these degrees that have no real world experience and then act like they know it all. My best friend, who was brought up in a family business, did a late MBA and then became a senior director in banking and insurance. He had a total shock when he decided to buy a business. Sure, the big picture planning and approach can be applied, however, what to do when several of your staff resign, a contract is going t!ts up or a local council is being a pain isn't something it helps with!

 

[cjd]

In the days when only 5% of the population had a degree there was some point in non-relevant study, an employer could start with the knowledge that someone at least has a level of IQ, the ability to learn and a given standard of literacy and numeracy.

But with half of the potential workforce going to university it then matters much more which university, what degree and whether you got a first or not. At least 25% of kids going to university have wasted time and money and are being lumbered with an unnecessary and long-term debt most of which won't be paid back and the taxpayer will eventually foot. It's a very strange and counter-productive process.

As an employer I employ young people without qualifications, test them for aptitude and personality and then train them. They have opportunities to progress internally if they show the talent. For more senior positions we require relevant experience and again we test for it. Academic qualifications can be useful but we value ability, experience and personally over everything. Out of 40 staff - bus admin, customer service, tech support, coders, network operators, senior managers, supervisors - I suspect we only have 4 with degrees. At least two of which are directly relevant.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

At least 25%

At least.

It is now seen as standard practice to go to uni, like primary to secondary. This is possibly the primary reason that we have growing shortages of trades!

 

[fantheflames]

At least.

It is now seen as standard practice to go to uni, like primary to secondary. This is possibly the primary reason that we have growing shortages of trades!

Absolutely, Paul! As an employer, I carefully evaluate qualifications regardless of whether they were earned through an online programme or at a university. What really matters to me is the broader spectrum of skills and practical experience. Personally, I find it crucial to request a brief trial or a small project to gauge their abilities based on their CV. Going to university is irrelevant, I'm more concerned about the skills they've obtained and technical qualifications.

 

[BubbaWY]

University used to be for the high achievers. Now it is viewed as an entitlement.

Im not saying that is necessarily a bad thing, but in some ways it has devalued the achievement of gaining a degree regardless of the hard work put in to gain it.

 

[Gecko001]

Back in the day there was a saying doing the rounds that, those do it MBA, could write their own pay cheques when they qualify. That is no-longer true, but is it because an the MBA course is no-longer rigorous and demanding, or its content is all irrelevant to business today? There is a place for the MBA and I would hazard a guess, that some who have done it have found it totally relevant to the job they end up doing, but it is not a passport to instant riches any more, if it ever was that. BTW I have not got an MBA.

 

[Ivanzyt]

I did my degree with the OU. But didn't start until I was much older. It made the process much easier as I had a bit of nous. Going straight from GSCE to A-levels - University is all wrong. There really should be a gap year to discover life outside education. That way you find out if you really do want to go to Uni. Or you might be lucky and get the company to pay for your degree.

Did my undergrad at a traditional university and my MBA through the OU. For me both worked at different stages of my life. If I had taken a year out between a-levels and uni I probably would have just smoked even more pot than I did and wasted a year of my life, I was a bit of twat when I was 18! But then the OU also worked as there was no way I could go back to uni full time once I was working and in my thirties because it just would not have worked financially or logistically, so the OU was great for that (big fan of the OU)

 

[IanSuth]

Actually th

.

Personally I believe (nailing my colours to the mast now) the universities are just a huge money making machine, selling the dream, ok some professions may require a degree of some sort but as an example "Theme Park Management" give me a break.

Actually the building next to ours pre covid housed a theme park management consultancy, they became part of this lot https://leisuredevelopment.co.uk/ also i used to deal with a company who created yield management software for the hotel world - lots of complicated maths to basically help you optimise your room and food pricing strategies to maximise profit (no point having 100% occupancy as you could have charged a bit more, had 90% full, made the same income for less work and if someone rocks up offered them a full price room etc)

 

[IanSuth]

In the days when only 5% of the population had a degree there was some point in non-relevant study, an employer could start with the knowledge that someone at least has a level of IQ, the ability to learn and a given standard of literacy and numeracy.

But with half of the potential workforce going to university it then matters much more which university, what degree and whether you got a first or not. At least 25% of kids going to university have wasted time and money and are being lumbered with an unnecessary and long-term debt most of which won't be paid back and the taxpayer will eventually foot. It's a very strange and counter-productive process.

As an employer I employ young people without qualifications, test them for aptitude and personality and then train them. They have opportunities to progress internally if they show the talent. For more senior positions we require relevant experience and again we test for it. Academic qualifications can be useful but we value ability, experience and personally over everything. Out of 40 staff - bus admin, customer service, tech support, coders, network operators, senior managers, supervisors - I suspect we only have 4 with degrees. At least two of which are directly relevant.

The other big issue is the set of stats used by unis to justify why you should go to uni basically compares a bunch of people who graduated in the 1950's with their peers who didnt over their careers - that is using stats from the period you mentioned when 5% did degrees (and usually went into the professions) to try and justify now when 50% do

 

[japancool]

I like my doctors to have a degree, preferably in medicine.

 

[Annoying Donkey]

I like my doctors to have a degree, preferably in medicine.

Oh, come on, how hard can it be...

 

[Newchodge]

I like my doctors to have a degree, preferably in medicine.

You old traditionalist, you.

 

[IanSuth]

be careful then as lots of those in GP practices you think are Dr's are really Physician Associates trained to a lower level

 

[Chris Ashdown]

The 650 people who get elected to run the country and have the ability to take us to war, don't need any qualification, No business experience, and get elected by many people who have no or little knowledge of the persons ability, Strange old world is it.

 

[HFE Signs]

Any qualification or formal training is worthy of some credit and should be advantageous in business to some degree, however being an entrepreneur is a mindset and can’t be taught. My higher qualifications are Electrical Engineering and micro processor design – that said, at the age of 13 I was building rabbit hutches out of scrap pallets and selling them faster than I could build them

 

[MarkOnline]

Yes, I too have noticed the anti-academia trend as part of an overall anti-intellectual trend. It's a bit worrying to me.

Our universities are churning out masses of students with irrelevant qualifications (in the most part) get them trained in practical skills, there are only so many jobs for people with degrees in any subject which ends in "Social studies". Most degree students in my area drive a bus or a tram.
IMO our academia has turned into woke "everyone's a winner" feelings trump facts brigade. I must be a fascist..

 

[fantheflames]

Some strong opinions on this thread. I agree, overall, that qualifications should not be the most important factor for hiring someone. It's more about the skills and experience. But a university degree is helpful also.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

There is definitely a place for degrees, but one side effect of having a degree is that once in a position to hire staff the degree holders tend to demand new employees are only selected by degree holders and exclude other possible suitable contestants

 

[IanSuth]

Some strong opinions on this thread. I agree, overall, that qualifications should not be the most important factor for hiring someone. It's more about the skills and experience. But a university degree is helpful also.

Depends on the degree

I did economics & accounting. The most useful bit about it was the first year end stop course in law covering contract and tort. I have used that more in business than anything else i learned in the 3 years. Accounting is 10% maths 90% understanding law/standards, i was persuaded to take it by a careers teacher saying i should do something more vocational than pure maths. He was wrong.

Going on what i enjoyed and the companies i enjoyed working with (vacancies i identified with), my 2nd place uni/course would have been mush better. Computer Science & Accounting at Southampton and then gone to work for a nascent finance software house in applications support

 

[Ivanzyt]

Some strong opinions on this thread. I agree, overall, that qualifications should not be the most important factor for hiring someone. It's more about the skills and experience. But a university degree is helpful also.

I see university degrees (good ones) as training in structured thought. It does not matter too much what the subject matter is, it is the process of structuring thought that is the main skill they give. I have noticed that often even very experienced people without a formal education struggle with structured thinking. This is not really a problem for many jobs but once you get into strategic planning, report writing, product development, and the like it can be an issue. All these "higher level" business functions require structure of thought, otherwise, it's just a mess.

Now, the good news is that anyone can learn and practice structured thinking and you certainly don't need a degree to do this. And it is also the case that many micky mouse degrees do not teach that basic skill either, so a degree is no guarantee that the person will have the ability to structure their thought well.

Skills and experience are definitely the most important thing but combine that with an ability to think in a structured way and you have someone who can really do great things. Again, to be absolutely clear, I am not suggesting for one second that only people with degree's can think in a structured way. But a good academic degree is some evidence of this skill.