Business Link is dead – error riddled Gov.uk site takes over

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Oops yes sorry got mixed up with all the postings.

oh that goodness it was you - I was hoping it wasn't me

 

[Paul_Rosser]

So could it be then that it isn't on Skyscape technology yet ....

"For short-term expediency, we chose Amazon Web Services (AWS) because for our immediate needs it offers the right balance of stability, high quality tools we could easily integrate into our scripts, a range of complimentary services and excellent technical support. Critically, however, we are not using any unique AWS components or services which we could not easily migrate to a new supplier. Once the G-Cloud framework is up and running we switch as quickly as is prudent to most suitable product in that framework."

​

I guess only Emer can clarify all of this although I do hope that the information is gave yesterday was correct.



I am a bit of a blooming stickler for accurate information as most of you on here will know. :redface:

As the announcment that they have signed with skyscape was only made a few weeks ago it's possible they haven't actually moved anything yet, which would explain why skyscape say all their stuff is in the UK, but the current site is sitting on Amazon in Ireland.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

As the announcment that they have signed with skyscape was only made a few weeks ago it's possible they haven't actually moved anything yet, which would explain why skyscape say all their stuff is in the UK, but the current site is sitting on Amazon in Ireland.

Yes of course - but surely that would have been checked before Emer gave the answer here yesterday else surely she would have posted that it was being stored temporarily on Amazon to be moved at a later date. I mean ... it would be so easy to check that information. :|



Anyway let’s wait to see what she tells us – we have to assume that what the Government tell us is correct and they have fully checked their facts before they respond or else where would we be. We wouldn’t be able to believe a word they say otherwise

 

[Paul_Rosser]

Yes of course - but surely that would have been checked before Emer gave the answer here yesterday else surely she would have posted that it was being stored temporarily on Amazon to be moved at a later date. I mean ... it would be so easy to check that information. :|

I have no idea who Emer is or how technical they are so it's possible they have been told that gov.uk is to be hosted with skyscape who are a UK provider, just no one actually said when this would happen.

But yes as someone who only got asked the question about where gov.uk is hosted last night we have all managed to find out, so you would have thought someone actually involved with the proejct would be aware.

Lets wait and see though.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

I have no idea who Emer is or how technical they are so it's possible they have been told that gov.uk is to be hosted with skyscape who are a UK provider, just no one actually said when this would happen.

But yes as someone who only got asked the question about where gov.uk is hosted last night we have all managed to find out, so you would have thought someone actually involved with the proejct would be aware.

Lets wait and see though.

Emer Coleman is ...

Deputy Director Digital Engagement Government Digital

From what I understand, she is "responsible" for the project (judging by the tweets in her time line).



So I would say that she can answer any questions on the project or can get someone to give her the correct information and then answer.

Her twitter account is:

https://twitter.com/emercoleman

 

[Paul_Rosser]

Emer Coleman is ...

Deputy Director Digital Engagement Government Digital

From what I understand, she is "responsible" for the project (judging by the tweets in her time line).



So I would say that she can answer any questions on the project or can get someone to give her the correct information and then answer.

Her twitter account is:

https://twitter.com/emercoleman

"Deputy Director Digital Engagement Government Digital" thats one hell of a title, but usually the longer the title of someone the less important to the process they are.

Hopefully was just an honest mistake and whilst the current site is sitting totally or in part on the Amazon Cloud they are planning to move it at some point in the future to a UK company.

Btw if anyone from the UK company is reading this, make sure you look into R&D tax relief as a project on this scale would most certainly have elements you can claim for ;-)

 

[EmerColeman]

I am having difficulty posting links in this forum (as have not contributed over 15 times) but to reiterate

GOV.UK is hosted, and all the data stored, by a UK based company called Skyscape, we have blogged on that on our Digital Cabinet Office bog. More details about hosting are on the Skyscape website

http gov (dot) uk does indeed currently point to EC2 in Ireland but this in
fact just redirects to https www (dot)gov(dot) uk None of the site content
resides on EC2

 

[Paul_Rosser]

Thanks for the claritifcation.

Silly question but why if amazon just redirect to skyscape why not have traffic going directly to them rather than amazon first ?

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Brilliant thank you - I knew that there must be an answer.

Seems then the easiest thing to do is to point gov.uk as the right server.

Isn't that a DNS type thing to do.

 

[Paul_Rosser]

Brilliant thank you - I knew that there must be an answer.

Seems then the easiest thing to do is to point gov.uk as the right server.

Isn't that a DNS type thing to do.

Yup is just a DNS change to point at skyscape rather than Amazon.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Yup is just a DNS change to point at skyscape rather than Amazon.

Well that would easily avoid any future confusion wouldn't it.

I know it's a really easy thing to do when you have a ISP - it takes a bit of time to resolve itself though (hours and days not days and weeks).

Can't Skyfall do that :|

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Ooops - sorry meant SkyScape.

I must have Daniel Craig on my mind

 

[fisicx]

I've just done a trace on the gov.uk and it stops in Ireland.

The point is that there is no need to involve Amazon at all in the process.

Why don't you reply to the feedback messages on the gov.uk website?

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

I've just done a trace on the gov.uk and it stops in Ireland.

Sorry - what does that mean? :|:|

Remember I am a simple accountant

Do you mean that it doesn't re-direct to Skyscape?

But it must do as Emer assures us it does. Are you sure on this :|:|:|

 

[Paul_Rosser]

If you inspect the home page itself then it's sitting on IP address 23.14.228.23, which looking at the last few hops would be in London.

7 24 ms 23 ms 24 ms xe-1-2-2.lon11.ip4.tinet.net [89.149.183.177]
8 24 ms 22 ms 23 ms a23-14-228-23.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com [23.
14.228.23]

Why the redirect from amazon to somewhere else though is a bit strange.

 

[Paul_Rosser]

Sorry - what does that mean? :|:|

Remember I am a simple accountant

Do you mean that it doesn't re-direct to Skyscape?

But it must do as Emer assures us it does. Are you sure on this :|:|:|

Thats incorrect, the entry point for the site is in Ireland, but all traffic is then re-directed back to the UK.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

If you inspect the home page itself then it's sitting on IP address 23.14.228.23, which looking at the last few hops would be in London.

7 24 ms 23 ms 24 ms xe-1-2-2.lon11.ip4.tinet.net [89.149.183.177]
8 24 ms 22 ms 23 ms a23-14-228-23.deploy.akamaitechnologies.com [23.
14.228.23]

Why the redirect from amazon to somewhere else though is a bit strange.

OK - so it is in London? All of it and not just the home pages?

Blimey - they say accountants can be confusing

 

[fisicx]

As I already posted, the cost of maintaining the existing contracts for Directgov and Businesslink would have been £36 million.

Is that per annum? How much is the new site going to cost per year?

This does not include the costs of individual departmental websites estimated at a further £50 - £70 million a year.

Those website still exist. Al you have done is take two sites and make them one. direct.gov.uk still exists as do all the departmental websites such as HMRC, justice, HSE, MOD, cabinet office and so on.

£18.5 million to launch is a huge amount of money when all you had to do was merge the two databases. The UI was fine on both sites. I can't find any of the businesslink content on the new site - it's all gone.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Thats incorrect, the entry point for the site is in Ireland, but all traffic is then re-directed back to the UK.

So for my simple mind that is like ....

if I am sitting in Marlow and want to get into London I would fly to Dublin, get on the next plane out from Dublin to Heathrow and get the train into London

 

[Paul_Rosser]

OK - so it is in London? All of it and not just the home pages?

Blimey - they say accountants can be confusing

Would have to go through every page to confirm, but been through a few and they are all on the same IP.

 

[Paul_Rosser]

So for my simple mind that is like ....

if I am sitting in Marlow and want to get into London I would fly to Dublin, get on the next plane out from Dublin to Heathrow and get the train into London

Pretty much, but it's only for the first request, once you are at the site all traffic will go directly to the UK.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

This is harder to understand than the new Child Benefit Tax Charge

 

[Paul_Rosser]

Lol it's not, it's very simple.

The domain Gov.uk points at an IP address in Ireland which shows as being on Amazons EC2 cloud, however when you actually visit gov.uk all traffic is redirected to a host in the UK.

Would be like having an address in Ireland and having all post redirected to a UK address, people may send post to you in Ireland but it would end up with you in the UK and to the sender they wouldn't necessarily know that their post is ending up in the UK.

 

[andygambles]

So for my simple mind that is like ....

if I am sitting in Marlow and want to get into London I would fly to Dublin, get on the next plane out from Dublin to Heathrow and get the train into London

That is how the internet works. Just because both you and the destination website are based in the same country you may still get routed via another country if that is the route chosen at that time.

 

[fisicx]

That is how the internet works. Just because both you and the destination website are based in the same country you may still get routed via another country if that is the route chosen at that time.

Yes, but why involve Amazon at all?

All the host needs to do is update the DNS with the new IP. That way when you do a whois check you will see the Servers in London rather than Ireland.

 

[KM-Tiger]

It depends whether you look up gov.uk, or www.gov.uk

gov.uk points to the amazon address in Ireland: 46.137.92.159

www.gov.uk points to an Akamai server in London: 23.54.68.23

Either way it will have to use a CDN (Content Distribution Network) much as Google, Twitter, BBC do if they are to provide service to the likely number of users.

 

[andygambles]

Yes, but why involve Amazon at all?

All the host needs to do is update the DNS with the new IP. That way when you do a whois check you will see the Servers in London rather than Ireland.

DNS doesn't do redirects you need to configure that server-side. They may be using a script on Amazon that handles all the incoming domains that need redirecting thereby reducing redirect requests to the main server.

They may be using Amazon to track traffic to the incoming domains prior to redirecting.

It may be they have not yet configured all the redirects on the main server and are currently setting this up before changing the DNS (so they work).

Could be a load balancing effort.

Without knowing the infrastructure and network set-up it is difficult to tell.

 

[Philip Hoyle]

The old Business Link website is available in the National Archive, so at least for the short term, it's valuable content is still available. Just have to remember that it won't be updated so the law and figures will become out of date. But still, highly useful for the factsheets, guidance, downloads, etc.

Perhaps if we all carried on using the archived BL website, the powers may sit up and take notice that the gov.uk is inadequate for business needs.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....073858808&r.l2=1073860617&r.s=b&r.t=RESOURCES

 

[RBS]

Why on earth tax dodgers/avoiders Amazon are involved in all this AT ALL?! Gov should have policies in place to forbid getting scammers like Amazon, eBay or Vodafone tax avoiders ANY gov contracts/money etc.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

A brilliant article at:

http://economia.icaew.com/Business/...criticised-over-new-business-information-site

Quotes from me and Phillip

 

[Philip Hoyle]

A new one on me. Apparently you can't use the VAT flat rate scheme if

"You can’t use the scheme if:
you use the VAT Cash Accounting Scheme"

https://www.gov.uk/vat-flat-rate-scheme/eligibility

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

"You can't use the scheme if:
you use the VAT Cash Accounting Scheme"

https://www.gov.uk/vat-flat-rate-scheme/eligibility

Bloody hell - they cannot even do a proper cut and paste job from the HMRC web site that clearly says ....

Who can't join the Flat Rate Scheme

You can't join the Flat Rate Scheme if:

• you were in the scheme and left during the previous 12 months
• you are, or have been within the previous 24 months
  • eligible to join an existing VAT group
  • registered for VAT as a division of a larger business
• you use one of the margin schemes for second-hand goods, art, antiques and collectibles, the Tour Operators' Margin Scheme, or the Capital Goods Scheme
• you have been convicted of a VAT offence or charged a penalty for VAT evasion in the last year
• your business is closely associated with another business

It is examples like this that show that the gov.uk is DANGEROUS

How are people supposed to know this is wrong?

How many more errors are there?

Yes we have seen the stats that say it is faster but getting to incorrect information faster in my book does not equal success!

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

And the same b****ks on the cash accounting pages where they say ...

Exceptions

You can’t use cash accounting if:

• you use the VAT Flat Rate Scheme

https://www.gov.uk/vat-cash-accounting-scheme/eligibility

Just how many more howlers do we need to show before someone makes a common sense decision and takes down these pages.

Really this is ludicrous

Business owners will be using and relying on this as fact. If we gave such duff advice we would be sued!

Yes I am outraged

 

[andygambles]

Unsure how a website costs £18m+

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Unsure how a website costs £18m+

Join the club

 

[kelvin1950]

Unsure how a website costs £18m+

£1m to develop it and £17m to set up the quango that runs it maybe?

 

[Tom McClelland]

I'm pondering how it is cheaper to design and commission a new website than it is to continue running a well-regarded one whose pages have already been created and which should therefore just need light maintenance and infrequent updates. Were the servers for the old site made of platinum?

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

I'm pondering how it is cheaper to design and commission a new website than it is to continue running a well-regarded one whose pages have already been created and which should therefore just need light maintenance and infrequent updates. Were the servers for the old site made of platinum?

also join the club

 

[RBS]

Unsure how a website costs £18m+

Easy - £1m for website & £17m in brown envelopes...

 

[cletusvanpuma]

Unsure how a website costs £18m+

I'd have done it for half that!