Business Link is dead – error riddled Gov.uk site takes over

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Yes you access the data on another computer but its then copied over to you so you can see it on your screen. (Those are the temporary files that you delete when you clear out the data in your browser options). Thats why in the old days of 28.8k modems you would curse if you hit a page with lots of pictures on it that had no relevance to the content and had to wait as they sssslllloooowwwwllllyyyy loaded.

Its hard to be too judgemental about the use of a US company for the distribution service as the biggest all are. In fact I can't think of a British company that does it at all. (Waits for someone to correct me in 3...2...1...)

ah yes well as I said my knowledge was from some time ago and I am getting old

 

[Paul_Rosser]

Totally confused - don't these two statements contradict each other :|:|:|:|:|:redface:

Emer

Can you check with Skyscape if the data is hosted in the UK please

Sorry thought you had established that the amazon EC2 cloud was being used for hosting.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Just because Amazon don't have a POP (point of presence) in the UK, it doesn't mean they don't have a company over here selling the use of it to UK based firms.

Any UK based company can use Amazons EC2 cloud for hosting.

So let's put it another way (bearing in mind I am an accountant ) who ultimately gets paid for hosting it and do they pay UK tax on the payment from the gov.uk customer, albeit that payment may have gone via a third party such as Skyscape and are UK jobs being created / safeguarded as a result of the ultimate supplier having the gov.uk business?

Thank you

 

[Paul_Rosser]

Yes you access the data on another computer but its then copied over to you so you can see it on your screen. (Those are the temporary files that you delete when you clear out the data in your browser options). Thats why in the old days of 28.8k modems you would curse if you hit a page with lots of pictures on it that had no relevance to the content and had to wait as they sssslllloooowwwwllllyyyy loaded.

If it's a decent cloud solution using thin client technology then no data is ever copied to your machine, which has to be the case when data is being accessed from outside the UK or the DPA kicks in and it's a whole load of trouble.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Sorry thought you had established that the amazon EC2 cloud was being used for hosting.

No the Government tell us "Our site is hosted, and all the data stored, by a UK based company called Skyscape" and "None of the site content resides on EC2."

Paul - please help a very confused and old accountant who is losing the will to stay balanced :redface::redface:

 

[Paul_Rosser]

So let's put it another way (bearing in mind I am an accountant ) who ultimately gets paid for hosting it and do they pay UK tax on the payment from the gov.uk customer, albeit that payment may have gone via a third party such as Skyscape and are UK jobs being created / safeguarded as a result of the ultimate supplier having the gov.uk business?

Thank you

It will depend on how they are structured. If they have a UK company taking orders and making money, then CT should be paid on any profits.

However I'm sure Amazon would cross charge for hosting to the UK based company, reducing it's profits and therefore reducing the CT to pay (if any).

So Amazon Ireland get all the cash and will pay very little tax I would imagine as the Irish government give some very nice tax breaks for tech firms who setup bases there.

There is a very good reason why Amazon chose Ireland to be their POP for the whole of the EU and I'm betting it's a financial one!.

 

[Paul_Rosser]

No the Government tell us "Our site is hosted, and all the data stored, by a UK based company called Skyscape" and "None of the site content resides on EC2."

Paul - please help a very confused and old accountant who is losing the will to stay balanced :redface::redface:

Sorry yes I saw that, I thought everyone had decided it was on the EC2.

You would need to know which companies they use for hosting, where they are based etc to work out where tax is paid.

Don't make me read the whole thread!!! Which site are we talking about ? And I'll have a look.

 

[AT Accounting]

I think I am being a bit dumb here - the gov.uk site is hosted by these skyscapre people who seem to have outsourced it all to Akamai who use Amazon sites and there is nto one of those in the UK according to ...

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=275355

So the chain looks like ...

gov.uk (UK based) - Skyscape (UK based) - Akamai (not UK) - Amazon (not UK - nor paying much UK tax)

Have I got the chain right?

So to put it another way ....

gov.uk (UK based) - Amazon (not UK - nor paying much UK tax)

Or have I made that too simple?

Being slightly unfair. Have a read of the Gov blog posts on Skyscape in the comments section for the Skyscape concerns.

Gov have used Skyscape to host their content. They are a UK company. Emer said that the data was hosted in the UK which suggests Skyscape either have their own servers on contract space on a UK server farm. I've only had a quick look round their site right now and have seen nothing to confirm or deny that. I assume (for the moment) that Gov procurement have checked that.

Gov or Skyscape have contracted Akamai to ensure continuous service worldwide. And Akamai have rented space from the Amazon datacentre in Ireland as a European base.

Amazon may be dodgy or not in the UK dealings but in this case its an Irish company dealing with a US company that just happens to have a UK client. Bit of a stretch to blame the gov in that case.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

I wasn't blaming the Govt sweetie - just trying to establish a clear stream of payments, profits and taxes.

I do think we should know this.

 

[Paul_Rosser]

Right then.

www.gov.uk resolves to IP address 46.137.92.159

When you do a lookup on this IP address it's show as belonging to -

Amazon Web Services, Elastic Compute Cloud, EC2, EU

When you do a lookup on the GOV.UK domain it also shows the same



GOV.UK - Geo InformationIP Address46.137.92.159 Hostgov.ukLocation

IE, IrelandCity-, - -OrganizationAmazon Web Services, Elastic Compute Cloud, EC2, EISPAmazon Data Services Ireland Ltd

So at least in the first instance the website is hosted on Amazons EC2 cloud.

It's possible the EC2 cloud is just used as the "first point of entry" and then depending on what page you access, where you are etc then it's hosted on other providers.

But yes www.gov.uk uses amazons EC2 cloud, which for the UK is hosted in Ireland.

Unless anyone can provide some technical information to show different ?

 

[andygambles]

If it's a decent cloud solution using thin client technology then no data is ever copied to your machine, which has to be the case when data is being accessed from outside the UK or the DPA kicks in and it's a whole load of trouble.

The DPA kicking in does not cause any trouble provided your registration says data may be exported outside the EU.

The fact is if you use email you should set your ICO registration as exports data worldwide since you have no control over where emails are routed when you send them nor do you have any control over where your connection to an internet website takes you.

A user in Yorkshire could connect to a Server In Manchester via a POP in the USA if the host is using a particularly bad network routing.

 

[Paul_Rosser]

The DPA kicking in does not cause any trouble provided your registration says data may be exported outside the EU.

The fact is if you use email you should set your ICO registration as exports data worldwide since you have no control over where emails are routed when you send them nor do you have any control over where your connection to an internet website takes you.

A user in Yorkshire could connect to a Server In Manchester via a POP in the USA if the host is using a particularly bad network routing.

True but the clue is 'you have no control' so would be very difficult for you to be held responsible. Deciding to move all your servers to India along with sensitive data would be your choice so would need to be managed properly to ensure no DPA issues arose.

We did a very big outsourcing project at a firm I worked out and we were advised that if indian staff logged in via citrix that as no data left the UK we would be ok.

 

[talkinpeace]

or to put it another way,

the consultants have made a stack of money setting up complicated hosting systems for a website containing a load of junk data replacing a perfectly good website

and chances are the money being paid to most of the parties is NOT incurring UK taxes.

 

[andygambles]

True but the clue is 'you have no control' so would be very difficult for you to be held responsible. Deciding to move all your servers to India along with sensitive data would be your choice so would need to be managed properly to ensure no DPA issues arose.

We did a very big outsourcing project at a firm I worked out and we were advised that if indian staff logged in via citrix that as no data left the UK we would be ok.

So how was the data displayed on the screen then?

 

[AT Accounting]

Right then.

www.gov.uk resolves to IP address 46.137.92.159

When you do a lookup on this IP address it's show as belonging to -

Amazon Web Services, Elastic Compute Cloud, EC2, EU

When you do a lookup on the GOV.UK domain it also shows the same



GOV.UK - Geo InformationIP Address46.137.92.159 Hostgov.ukLocation

IE, IrelandCity-, - -OrganizationAmazon Web Services, Elastic Compute Cloud, EC2, EISPAmazon Data Services Ireland Ltd

So at least in the first instance the website is hosted on Amazons EC2 cloud.

It's possible the EC2 cloud is just used as the "first point of entry" and then depending on what page you access, where you are etc then it's hosted on other providers.

But yes www.gov.uk uses amazons EC2 cloud, which for the UK is hosted in Ireland.

Unless anyone can provide some technical information to show different ?

But the hosting company is Skyscape, so its them which use EC2 not technically gov.uk. Not really surprising as most hosting companies don't have their own servers and Amazon are such a huge player in the cloud hosting these days.

That said it does show a gap in the knowledge that the department has. Maybe they assumed that because the hosting company is based in the UK thats where the data was. Rather behind the times.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Why use a third party then so they add a slice of profit? Why not go direct to Amazon?

 

[Paul_Rosser]

Well no lots of companies etc choose to use someone else to host their IT infastructure and a lot of these firms actually host with one of the bigger boys (amazon, rackspace etc) so they get a much better network than they could afford to build themselves.

Regardless of who they use and where they then choose to stick the site, gov.uk is hosted outside the UK, but does it really matter ? A UK based host could have everything sitting on their own UK network and yet still pay no UK tax through clever use of international tax.

 

[Paul_Rosser]

Why use a third party then so they add a slice of profit? Why not go direct to Amazon?

If they did this they would first have to build their own platform using amazon's service, I'm assuming they went with a 3rd party who had already done this and are using it to host gov.uk

 

[AT Accounting]

From Skyscape's website

http://www.skyscapecloud.com/assurance/sovereignty

Sovereignty

Skyscape is a UK registered company owned exclusively by UK domiciled shareholders. All our secure operational centres and data centres for UK Public Sector clients are sited within the UK in highly secure data centres. A significant competitive differentiator is our focus on the integrity of our client’s data, including protection from potential access by overseas legislation including the US Patriot Act.

Now for obvious reasons Amazons data centres street address is not easy to track down but we have rough GPS co-ordinates of 53N 8W Which is in the middle of Eire.

So as Peter suggested is the front page hosted on EC2 and then you are passed to other locations?

 

[andygambles]

Why use a third party then so they add a slice of profit? Why not go direct to Amazon?

The same reason you don't buy your cereals direct from Kelloggs.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

From Skyscape's website

http://www.skyscapecloud.com/assurance/sovereignty



Now for obvious reasons Amazons data centres street address is not easy to track down but we have rough GPS co-ordinates of 53N 8W Which is in the middle of Eire.

So as Peter suggested is the front page hosted on EC2 and then you are passed to other locations?

Blimey it like a blooming James Bond movie

I think 007 Emer needs to clarify as so far this is more complicated than the new Child Benefit Tax Charges

My list of questions on this is growing - can't wait for the session we are supposed to be having

 

[Paul_Rosser]

So how was the data displayed on the screen then?

Using citrix, which our very expensive lawyer told us did not count as taking data out of the UK, provided the offshore staff were not able to print, take screenshots or use cameras to capture the data.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

The same reason you don't buy your cereals direct from Kelloggs.

I am a porridge lady

 

[Paul_Rosser]

So as Peter suggested is the front page hosted on EC2 and then you are passed to other locations?

Possibly, but without knowing a lot more about their network than you can get "legally" it's going to be impossible to know exactly how it's hosted, where everything is etc

 

[andygambles]

Using citrix, which our very expensive lawyer told us did not count as taking data out of the UK, provided the offshore staff were not able to print, take screenshots or use cameras to capture the data.

Again how is the data displayed on a screen in another country without sending data to that screen?

 

[AT Accounting]

Why use a third party then so they add a slice of profit? Why not go direct to Amazon?

The hosting company provides other services on top of just providing webspace. I would assume its more cost effective to use a 3rd party than for gov.uk to employ in house people.

Interestingly the Gov.uk website is built on the GitHub code base. This is an open source platform so much cheaper than a bought in system. I was expecting Drupal which is very popular in Government circles (many different departments in the UK, almost the entire US Governement web presence).

From what I can see the reason for the choice seems to be the better collaboration and feedback systems. Functionality which has been very useful this week!

 

[Paul_Rosser]

Again how is the data displayed on a screen in another country without sending data to that screen?

The data itself is not sent to the screen, a graphical representation of a virtual application running on a server in the UK is.

In effect all the offshore user gets is a series of images, which do not count as sending the actual data out of the UK.

This was verified by a number of legal folk, including some who specialise in data protection.

 

[andygambles]

The data itself is not sent to the screen, a graphical representation of a virtual application running on a server in the UK is.

In effect all the offshore user gets is a series of images, which do not count as sending the actual data out of the UK.

This was verified by a number of legal folk, including some who specialise in data protection.

So if I printed out the screen in the UK and then posted that to someone in India that is not exporting data because it is an image?

If I viewed a companies ICO registration and it said data exports "Non outside of the EU" but then when I called customer services I spoke to an Indian call centre that had my details would you imagine I would be a little confused?

 

[Paul_Rosser]

So if I printed out the screen in the UK and then posted that to someone in India that is not exporting data because it is an image?

If I viewed a companies ICO registration and it said data exports "Non outside of the EU" but then when I called customer services I spoke to an Indian call centre that had my details would you imagine I would be a little confused?

No as it wouldn't be classed as an image but a hard copy of personal data.

Also the person in India would actually have a copy of the data, we had to ensure the workstations would not enable printing, data capture etc

This is the method used by TATA to allow for offshore support staff and the legal document they produced to back this up was about 1000 pages so guessing they did their research.

 

[andygambles]

No as it wouldn't be classed as an image but a hard copy of personal data.

Also the person in India would actually have a copy of the data, we had to ensure the workstations would not enable printing, data capture etc

This is the method used by TATA to allow for offshore support staff and the legal document they produced to back this up was about 1000 pages so guessing they did their research.

Just to quote the ICO (My bold)

Processing, in relation to information or data, means obtaining, recording or holding the information or data or carrying out any operation or set of operations on the information or data, including –

(a) organisation, adaptation or alteration of the information or data,

(b) retrieval, consultation or use of the information or data,

(c) disclosure of the information or data by transmission, dissemination or otherwise making available, or

(d) alignment, combination, blocking, erasure or destruction of the information or data.

Personally I would just state data is exported worldwide in my registration and allow for that in my terms and privacy policy.

 

[Paul_Rosser]

Just to quote the ICO (My bold)



Personally I would just state data is exported worldwide in my registration and allow for that in my terms and privacy policy.

Think you should go work for the UK's biggest airline then as their legal folk checked everything and said it was all ok.

P.S. Anyway I just did the IT side but know the Data Protection bit took them about 12 months to sort out and in the end we had to use citrix as a workaround.

 

[andygambles]

Think you should go work for the UK's biggest airline then as their legal folk checked everything and said it was all ok.

Doesn't make them right. You'd also think the UKs biggest search engine would get it right .

 

[Paul_Rosser]

True, all I know is it that it was a real PITA!

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

So to get this back on track - can I summarise all of that technical stuff.

We are told by "the Government" that the site is hosted in the UK by Skyscape. Emer said:

“Our site is hosted, and all the data stored, by a UK based company called Skyscape ....None of the site content resides on EC2.”
​

The Skyscape web site says ...

Sovereignty

Skyscape is a UK registered company owned exclusively by UK domiciled shareholders. All our secure operational centres and data centres for UK Public Sector clients are sited within the UK in highly secure data centres. A significant competitive differentiator is our focus on the integrity of our client’s data, including protection from potential access by overseas legislation including the US Patriot Act.
​

But the technical type people here (thank you to Paul Rosser) say ...

“www.gov.uk resolves to IP address 46.137.92.159

When you do a lookup on this IP address it's show as belonging to -

Amazon Web Services, Elastic Compute Cloud, EC2, EU

When you do a lookup on the GOV.UK domain it also shows the same

GOV.UK - Geo InformationIP Address46.137.92.159 Hostgov.ukLocationhttp://n1.dlcache.com/flags/ie.gif IE, IrelandCity-, - -OrganizationAmazon Web Services, Elastic Compute Cloud, EC2, EISPAmazon Data Services Ireland Ltd
So at least in the first instance the website is hosted on Amazons EC2 cloud.

It's possible the EC2 cloud is just used as the "first point of entry" and then depending on what page you access, where you are etc then it's hosted on other providers.

But yes www.gov.uk uses amazons EC2 cloud, which for the UK is hosted in Ireland.”
​

I am so glad that I am a mere accountant as my head is spinning with this.:redface::redface:

So let me try to ask a straight question so that I can get a straight answer from Emer Coleman ...

Question

Emer – can you confirm that no information, data, code or any part of the gov.uk website whatsoever is held on EC2 Amazon (as per your original post) and that this is just a network point of entry back to the UK based data hosted on technology owned and managed by Skyscape?

I am sorry to have to ask again but there does seem to be some confusion raised. Thank you

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

Just for information I have asked this question of Emer via tweeted although I had to shorten it to 140 characters .....

Emer – can you please confirm that the HMRC web site (and of course all of the content on it) is NOT within the scope of the gov.uk project and that the HMRC web site will NOT be replaced by content on gov.uk – now or at any time in the future.

Can I also widen the scope here to include the same question for the Companies House web site.

Thank you

 

[AT Accounting]

Can I also widen the scope here to include the same question for the Companies House web site.

You could do but that resolves back to NTL (or Virginmedia these days) hosted in of all places Cardiff.... (Well Barry but close enough)

 

[Paul_Rosser]

The beta of gov.uk at least was hosted using Amazon's EC2 setup - http://digital.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/2012/01/24/hosting-the-beta-of-gov-uk/

This is a quote from the technical lead working on gov.uk, which would confirm that the beta was hosted on amazon and at the moment the live site looks like it still is.

Nick #
Doesn't hosting on cloud services where data will be stored outside of the EU go against EU data protection regulations?

James Stewart#
We're not storing any significant amounts of personal data (some user accounts for team members, but that's it) which definitely simplifies these considerations for the time being.But we've also been very careful to ensure that the amazon services we use are in their EU-West-1 region, so all the data is stored (and code is running) within the EU.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

You could do but that resolves back to NTL (or Virginmedia these days) hosted in of all places Cardiff.... (Well Barry but close enough)

I meant that they are not replacing Co House with gov.uk - did that not read like that from my question?

 

[AT Accounting]

I meant that they are not replacing Co House with gov.uk - did that not read like that from my question?

Oops yes sorry got mixed up with all the postings.

 

[elaine@cheapaccounting]

So could it be then that it isn't on Skyscape technology yet ....

"For short-term expediency, we chose Amazon Web Services (AWS) because for our immediate needs it offers the right balance of stability, high quality tools we could easily integrate into our scripts, a range of complimentary services and excellent technical support. Critically, however, we are not using any unique AWS components or services which we could not easily migrate to a new supplier. Once the G-Cloud framework is up and running we switch as quickly as is prudent to most suitable product in that framework."

​

I guess only Emer can clarify all of this although I do hope that the information is gave yesterday was correct.



I am a bit of a blooming stickler for accurate information as most of you on here will know. :redface: