Brexit negotiations

Three and a half years ago I predicted that it is entirely reasonable to stop free movement but still have access to the single market
But it's YOUR children who will be denied access to workplaces in over 30 countries. It's YOUR children who will not be able to study in Germany or France or other EU countries. It is YOUR children whose qualifications will not be recognised.

Not my children but your own children and their grandchildren and their children whose life-chances have been reduced. Not mine - YOURS!

My children and my grandchildren can live, work and study anywhere in the EU - YOURS cannot.

Because my grandchildren are German, they can work and study (as part of an exchange programme) in many counties across the world inc. the US. YOURS cannot.

I can drive any car anywhere in Europe and do so for the rest of my life without any special paperwork. YOU and YOUR children cannot.

I can get a bank loan in the EU with one telephone call. YOU cannot.

I can even buy a house in the EU by telephone and actually live there. YOU cannot.

The advantages of the EU for the individual were not only never explained to the British, but even someone as well-informed as you is obviously hopelessly unaware of all those advantages that are now denied them. What have you gained? A few more herring and the remnants of the dying banking sector, soon to be replaced by DCEP and similar schemes.

Now explain again please what these great advantages are that the average British subject has gained by being isolationist.
 
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Clinton

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    And there we go, one black lining already! :)

    But it's YOUR children who will be denied access to workplaces in over 30 countries. It's YOUR children who will not be able to study in Germany or France or other EU countries. It is YOUR children whose qualifications will not be recognised.
    You're assuming my children would even be interested in any of that. I've never felt the urge to work or study in any EU country. Why do you assume they'd want to study in the EU? Have we run out of universities here in Blighty?

    And if they do want to study in the EU, they still can - I'll just have to pay for it. Like I would in the US or, for that matter, in the freaking UK!

    And I can still drive in the EU (if I ever develop a death wish and get behind a steering wheel in Paris).

    And I can get a bank loan in the UK. Why on earth is it a great loss to me to not be able to get one in Slovakia?

    What the hell are you on about?

    The topic isn't whether we should leave the EU, it's that we got a fantastic deal despite a bumbling buffoon of a PM. Just goes to show that the EU was full of bluster and BS. In the end, they caved. Like I always knew they would. Like we told you lot that they would.
     
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    You're assuming my children would even be interested in any of that. I've never felt the urge to work or study in any EU country. Why do you assume they'd want to study in the EU? Have we run out of universities here in Blighty?
    And why are you so keen to see your own children being denied those chances?

    Shouldn't that be their choice and not yours?


    As for good universities in the UK - I'm at the butt-end of those universities and good universities in the UK are getting few and far between. I regularly get CVs from music technology graduates who, on the interview, cannot even read a circuit diagram or a sheet of music. In fact, I would say that is most of them. I could go on and on, on that theme, naming various skills and the grinding lack of those skills here in the UK.

    Look Clinton - I don't really have a dog in this race, but the idea that the UK is going to enjoy the sunny uplands of a New Dawn is truly laughable.

    The storm clouds ahead look daunting. We have a wildly over-priced stock market, UK and US governments that are over-borrowed and printing money in true Weimar Republic style.

    Not everything within the EU is rosy either. Neo-Nazis are on the rise, Germany has a growing ultra-left movement and most EU governments hardly covered themselves with glory when dealing with C19.

    As for buying buildings, dealing with banks or any other business dealings, there are enormous advantages for every business in being able to do these things all across the EU.

    I can not only move money between the UK and the EU without paying any courtage or other fees, but I can move money between dollars, Euros and pounds. A UK-only company used to be able to do these things - it no longer can!

    That door of opportunity has now closed. Now they have to struggle with asinine paperwork and pay some company like Transferwise and all the others - who do what we do and have therefore zero costs other than internal overheads.

    These are the facts of commerce that any competent CFO would know - but they did not get to vote as they are nearly always not UK-based. Brains are nearly always international. Stupidity and bigotry are always local.

    The worst is yet to come - enjoy!
     
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    Mr D

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    Clinton

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    @The Byre , the debate about whether we should vote Leave ...is over. At that time I voted Remain so I still don't know what you're on about with respect making choices for my children.

    The issue now at hand is just enjoying the schadenfreude, not from the fact that we're leaving but from the fact that we're getting what all the Rabid Remainers said we would never, ever get.

    "The EU has all the power.
    "They are bigger than we are.
    "We are insignificant and unworthy.
    "They are our biggest export market but we are a small market for them
    "They won't give us access to the single market without free movement
    Duh, no they won't change their rules for us"
    Blah, blah, blah.

    There were also some thick people who refused to read / understand the valid points we were making, who insisted on getting all their news from within their Remain bubble, the Biased Broadcasting Corporation and the lunatic left wing Guardian that always talks Britain down and talks the EU up.

    Half the Remain crowd on here were actually rooting for the EU in talks. They were constantly criticising the UK, and hoping we'd get a bad deal. That they have egg on their faces is a great delight to me, yes.

    The worst is yet to come - enjoy!
    Not according the CEBR and other reputable "experts". Nice chap though you are, you must forgive me for taking their word over yours.
     
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    RobinBHM

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    @The Byre , the debate about whether we should vote Leave ...is over. At that time I voted Remain so I still don't know what you're on about with respect making choices for my children.

    The issue now at hand is just enjoying the schadenfreude, not from the fact that we're leaving but from the fact that we're getting what all the Rabid Remainers said we would never, ever get.

    "The EU has all the power.
    "They are bigger than we are.
    "We are insignificant and unworthy.
    "They are our biggest export market but we are a small market for them
    "They won't give us access to the single market without free movement
    Duh, no they won't change their rules for us"
    Blah, blah, blah.

    There were also some thick people who refused to read / understand the valid points we were making, who insisted on getting all their news from within their Remain bubble, the Biased Broadcasting Corporation and the lunatic left wing Guardian that always talks Britain down and talks the EU up.

    Half the Remain crowd on here were actually rooting for the EU in talks. They were constantly criticising the UK, and hoping we'd get a bad deal. That they have egg on their faces is a great delight to me, yes.

    Not according the CEBR and other reputable "experts". Nice chap though you are, you must forgive me for taking their word over yours.

    Interesting that the arguments you claimed were made by remainers are proven by the deal.

    "They won't change their rules for us"

    Well they haven't.

    The deal means the UK has to follow EU Level Playing Field rules for tariff free access to the Single Market.

    "We are insignificant and unworthy". Well the UK only negotiated a bare bones deal because that's all it was ever going to get.

    And all the concessions are on the UK side.


    Interesting Clinton conveniently forgets to mention this deal puts very significant barriers between UK and it's biggest trade partner that's on its doorstep.
     
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    The deal means the UK has to follow EU Level Playing Field rules for tariff free access to the Single Market.

    the UK only negotiated a bare bones deal because that's all it was ever going to get.

    And all the concessions are on the UK side.

    I think that the usual suspects would have moaned whatever deal was agreed on and only the terminally daft would have thought that we could leave the EU and everything that entails and carry on as if nothing had changed at all.
     
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    JEREMY HAWKE

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    I was surprised to see free trade on the boarders continue The completion of custom forms are a complete bind and a spanner in the works all in all .

    I hope customs inspections do not cause delay and this may cause a lot of problems for large scale manufacturers

    I look forward to working with people from countries I have never heard of before
     
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    Mr D

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    Interesting that the arguments you claimed were made by remainers are proven by the deal.

    "They won't change their rules for us"

    Well they haven't.

    The deal means the UK has to follow EU Level Playing Field rules for tariff free access to the Single Market.

    "We are insignificant and unworthy". Well the UK only negotiated a bare bones deal because that's all it was ever going to get.

    And all the concessions are on the UK side.


    Interesting Clinton conveniently forgets to mention this deal puts very significant barriers between UK and it's biggest trade partner that's on its doorstep.

    These significant barriers.
    They are smaller under the WTO agreement as compared to the current negotiated agreement to be voted on?

    Or are you simply rehashing the fact that the UK voted by a majority to leave the EU 4 years ago.
    Which is not currently up for stopping.
     
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    Mr D

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    I was surprised to see free trade on the boarders continue The completion of custom forms are a complete bind and a spanner in the works all in all .

    I hope customs inspections do not cause delay and this may cause a lot of problems for large scale manufacturers

    I look forward to working with people from countries I have never heard of before

    Can recommend buying a decent sized globe so these countries you have never heard of can be found, you may not want jobs that involve driving across deserts or over some peak called Everest.
     
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    On an important point of order -
    Not according the CEBR and other reputable "experts". Nice chap though you are, you must forgive me for taking their word over yours.
    The CEBR is just the banking sector talking to itself. You only have to look at their so-called research papers to see that they believe the old fallacy that economics is just about money.

    Money is a human invention. A construct. A construct that can and is manipulated - or even avoided, bypassed, or just ignored. In short, it is a Fugazi.

    In the world of money (i.e. banking) everybody is buzzing and getting excited over DCEP (Digital Currency Electronic Pay) the new Chinese digital currency. It is being rolled out across the entire world NOW and the implications for banks and governments are enormous.

    And because the banks and governments and even the media everywhere are sticking their fingers in their collective ears and singing "La! La! La!" including the recipients of banking largess at the CEBR, China will be able to dominate the world with a new and far more sophisticated construct.

    The BIG NEWS for 2020 was not Brexit, C19 or Trump's delusions, but DCEP.

    China launched the biggest infrastructure programme in human history largely unnoticed - One Belt - One Road. It has now launched an even bigger fundamental change that will destroy banks and banking over the next few decades and reduce governments everywhere except China to nominal figureheads.

    And what are we doing?

    Twitching like galvanised frogs over Brexit.
     
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    Mr D

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    On an important point of order -

    The CEBR is just the banking sector talking to itself. You only have to look at their so-called research papers to see that they believe the old fallacy that economics is just about money.

    Money is a human invention. A construct. A construct that can and is manipulated - or even avoided, bypassed, or just ignored. In short, it is a Fugazi.

    In the world of money (i.e. banking) everybody is buzzing and getting excited over DCEP (Digital Currency Electronic Pay) the new Chinese digital currency. It is being rolled out across the entire world NOW and the implications for banks and governments are enormous.

    And because the banks and governments and even the media everywhere are sticking their fingers in their collective ears and singing "La! La! La!" including the recipients of banking largess at the CEBR, China will be able to dominate the world with a new and far more sophisticated construct.

    The BIG NEWS for 2020 was not Brexit, C19 or Trump's delusions, but DCEP.

    China launched the biggest infrastructure programme in human history largely unnoticed - One Belt - One Road. It has now launched an even bigger fundamental change that will destroy banks and banking over the next few decades and reduce governments everywhere except China to nominal figureheads.

    And what are we doing?

    Twitching like galvanised frogs over Brexit.

    Wow. All that - and still trying to cope with their internal problems too.
    Perhaps such a great strategy that solves so many problems would get going quite easily.

    Unless it creates additional problems?
     
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    Chris Ashdown

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    So much negativity is not surprising these days, why look for good positive thinking when the old anti brigade are so stuck in their ways

    Even Byre who I respect but don't always agree with, cannot think of one positive thing , presumably he is still busy packing up his HQ and moving it to the EU

    When two sides form a agreement its hardly ever that there is no some give or take on both sides, so lets rejoice that we walked away with a agreement that for most people will mean no or little change to their everyday lives

    In 5 days time the EU does its own thing and we do ours, lets all start the new year on what positives we can agree on
     
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    Mr D

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    So much negativity is not surprising these days, why look for good positive thinking when the old anti brigade are so stuck in their ways

    Even Byre who I respect but don't always agree with, cannot think of one positive thing , presumably he is still busy packing up his HQ and moving it to the EU

    When two sides form a agreement its hardly ever that there is no some give or take on both sides, so lets rejoice that we walked away with a agreement that for most people will mean no or little change to their everyday lives

    In 5 days time the EU does its own thing and we do ours, lets all start the new year on what positives we can agree on

    Yep - so long as politicians don't now mess up the deal to be voted on.

    Its not a certainty it will go through our parliament even, never mind other countries agreeing to it.
     
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    Even Byre who I respect but don't always agree with, cannot think of one positive thing, presumably he is still busy packing up his HQ and moving it to the EU
    Why thank you Sir for the respect! I assure you it is mutual!

    Packing up? Not yet - I need to see what the economy does and how it will affect us - probably not much is my guess! But I have been pricing up houses in the Harz area. If we do move, the wife wants something small, manageable and modern. She told me in no uncertain terms that she will not put up with living in another building site.

    Rid of the EU a good thing? The EU is riddled with daft rules that make no sense whatsoever! Anything and everything from the CAP to the limit of 30 minutes recording time on certain types of camcorders (to protect an EU industry that ceased to exist over 15 years ago!)

    But the idea that the UK will be taking back control is illusionary. DSLRs and camcorders will still stop recording at 29 minutes and 59 seconds. Cars will still have to comply with EU rules on emissions and safety. Domestic vacuum cleaners will still have to be under 1.6kW. No manufacturer can afford to not comply with EU rules across their range and farmers will still need EU guest workers if the product is not to rot in the fields.

    Fishing? Thatcher sold out the fishing industry and now Johnson has done it again. 25% of EU boats' fishing rights in UK waters will be transferred to the UK fishing fleet, over a period of five-and-a-half years. That hardly sounds like taking back control to me! That sounds more like bending over backwards to get any kind of a deal by a team who were desperate and out of their depth.

    So all you have gained is the loss of the right for future generations to work outside the UK. The net result of Brexit was to fence-off the UK and prevent people from living outside of it, whilst still being subject to nearly all EU rules and regulations.

    Was that worth all this fuss?

    I would LOVE to be able to find something positive about leaving the EU. But I can't!
     
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    MBE2017

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    Too early to say my thoughts, but my initial take on the deal is the sell out expected by many. On fisheries, the UK is going to gain 2.35% of the catch in five years, plus the UK is still paying into the Euro defence fund until at least 2027.

    It doesn’t sound like a Nation state reclaiming control to myself, but it was obvious neither side had the kahunas to go for No Deal WTO.
     
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    Scott-Copywriter

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    Negatives:
    -No recognition of professional qualifications
    -No realtime access to fingerprint and other security data (access only when requested)
    -Fisheries - we didn't get the control we asked for over fish
    -No Erasmus (to be replaced by an alternative)
    -No right to live indefinitely in the EU (max 90 days without visa)
    -Few other bits and pieces

    - A part of our country (Northern Ireland) remains under the jurisdiction of the EU, with internal restrictions and checks between parts of the UK now required. That's a rather dramatic sacrifice of the sovereignty we seemed so keen to claw back. Or is this not a problem for you providing it doesn't impact you directly?

    - We've signed up to arbitration mechanisms to ensure that the EU can counteract certain actions we take that are deemed unfair. So to escape being a rule-taker, we've decided to take rules from someone else instead.

    - The Common Travel Area allows Irish citizens to freely live and work in the UK, and EU citizens can gain Irish citizenship after 5 years of residency, which then gives them a free movement path into the UK. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but it means that despite all the downsides of Brexit, we still haven't gained the "full control" of our borders that so many wanted.

    Just as a side note here, that means we haven't gained full sovereignty, full border control, or full control over our regulations, which were three of the biggest selling points apparently.

    - The right to use national identity cards to gain entry into the UK will expire next year. Some may say this is more secure, but most EU nationals don't have passports as their identity cards give them free movement access across the EU, so expect tourism (and the revenues from that) to decline substantially.

    - A huge negative that remains is the amount of bureaucracy businesses and individuals will have to deal with. Yes, there won't be tariffs or quotas, but there will still be customs declarations, carnets, checks and all sorts of other paperwork to do. It will be a colossal difference compared to the free market access we currently enjoy. Ask anyone with experience in these matters.

    - Now we don't have a seat at the EU table, we don't have any ability to influence its decisions (and we've done plenty of influencing in the past). We can therefore expect the EU to take more actions at our expense, which is a problem when its responsible for 50% of our trade and nearly surrounds us on all sides. We shouldn't underestimate the issues it can cause when the EU wants to do things that negatively impact us and no longer has to factor in our opinion.

    - We've left the EHIC scheme. Now we have to pay for travel insurance to avoid huge medical bills, which is relatively cheap, but it means we're now at the mercy of insurance providers in terms of what they cover and what can be voided under their policies. It's extremely hard/impossible, for example, to be covered for pre-existing conditions, which will create significant risks for many older people holidaying in the EU (this is something I wonder if older Brexit voters ever realised). Even now, due to FCDO advice, travel insurance doesn't cover Covid related illnesses while in the EU, so if you catch it while abroad, you're in for some big problems. Who knows when this advisory will be lifted.

    - We'll no longer have any protected right to even travel to the EU. This is more a point of principle than anything else, but think about it: the EU can now ban or restrict our travel however it pleases, and all we can do is reciprocate.

    - There's very little in the deal for financial services, which is one of our primary exports. We'll lose our passporting rights, and now enter another world of bureaucracy with time-limited equivalence rules. Basically, for continued access, we have to keep doing what the EU wants.

    As for the benefits of leaving the EU, they seem to have boiled down to:

    - Regulatory divergence - which we're still limited in doing.

    - International trade deals - We've rolled over a lot of existing deals on the same terms, and in our desperation to secure trade deals elsewhere, we're already bending to the USA's will to scramble together some kind of mini deal with them.

    - Investment - We can't afford to do anywhere near as much anymore as we've spent so much dealing with Covid, and we're still restricted by the deal even here as well.

    - Becoming a tax haven - Good luck selling tax breaks for corporations to the British public when they're already being hammered by the economic impact of Covid + Brexit + probable tax rises of their own.

    So that's less freedom, money, influence and rights; and more risk, tax, trade friction and uncertainty. And in exchange, we still didn't get full sovereignty, still didn't get full border control, still have to abide by many EU rules, and also had to create a trade barrier within the UK itself.

    Sounds super.
     
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    Clinton

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    Good luck to all your friends in the EU who have this free "Irish route" into the UK. All it'll take them is living 5 years in Ireland and getting Irish citizenship first before coming here? Yes, easy peasy.

    For all practical purposes, we've got back control of our borders and you whine that we haven't really ....because there is the Irish Route into the UK?!

    I don't have the time to deal with all your whining, you were always going to be disappointed no matter what the deal. There's no point arguing with you and @The Byre . I'm off to tell my kids not to worry about Erasmus because Turing gives them, and a vast swathe of underprivileged kids in the UK, the potential chance to go to non-EU universities like Harvard and Yale.
     
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    Mr D

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    - A part of our country (Northern Ireland) remains under the jurisdiction of the EU, with internal restrictions and checks between parts of the UK now required. That's a rather dramatic sacrifice of the sovereignty we seemed so keen to claw back. Or is this not a problem for you providing it doesn't impact you directly?

    - We've signed up to arbitration mechanisms to ensure that the EU can counteract certain actions we take that are deemed unfair. So to escape being a rule-taker, we've decided to take rules from someone else instead.

    - The Common Travel Area allows Irish citizens to freely live and work in the UK, and EU citizens can gain Irish citizenship after 5 years of residency, which then gives them a free movement path into the UK. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but it means that despite all the downsides of Brexit, we still haven't gained the "full control" of our borders that so many wanted.

    Just as a side note here, that means we haven't gained full sovereignty, full border control, or full control over our regulations, which were three of the biggest selling points apparently.

    - The right to use national identity cards to gain entry into the UK will expire next year. Some may say this is more secure, but most EU nationals don't have passports as their identity cards give them free movement access across the EU, so expect tourism (and the revenues from that) to decline substantially.

    - A huge negative that remains is the amount of bureaucracy businesses and individuals will have to deal with. Yes, there won't be tariffs or quotas, but there will still be customs declarations, carnets, checks and all sorts of other paperwork to do. It will be a colossal difference compared to the free market access we currently enjoy. Ask anyone with experience in these matters.

    - Now we don't have a seat at the EU table, we don't have any ability to influence its decisions (and we've done plenty of influencing in the past). We can therefore expect the EU to take more actions at our expense, which is a problem when its responsible for 50% of our trade and nearly surrounds us on all sides. We shouldn't underestimate the issues it can cause when the EU wants to do things that negatively impact us and no longer has to factor in our opinion.

    - We've left the EHIC scheme. Now we have to pay for travel insurance to avoid huge medical bills, which is relatively cheap, but it means we're now at the mercy of insurance providers in terms of what they cover and what can be voided under their policies. It's extremely hard/impossible, for example, to be covered for pre-existing conditions, which will create significant risks for many older people holidaying in the EU (this is something I wonder if older Brexit voters ever realised). Even now, due to FCDO advice, travel insurance doesn't cover Covid related illnesses while in the EU, so if you catch it while abroad, you're in for some big problems. Who knows when this advisory will be lifted.

    - We'll no longer have any protected right to even travel to the EU. This is more a point of principle than anything else, but think about it: the EU can now ban or restrict our travel however it pleases, and all we can do is reciprocate.

    - There's very little in the deal for financial services, which is one of our primary exports. We'll lose our passporting rights, and now enter another world of bureaucracy with time-limited equivalence rules. Basically, for continued access, we have to keep doing what the EU wants.

    As for the benefits of leaving the EU, they seem to have boiled down to:

    - Regulatory divergence - which we're still limited in doing.

    - International trade deals - We've rolled over a lot of existing deals on the same terms, and in our desperation to secure trade deals elsewhere, we're already bending to the USA's will to scramble together some kind of mini deal with them.

    - Investment - We can't afford to do anywhere near as much anymore as we've spent so much dealing with Covid, and we're still restricted by the deal even here as well.

    - Becoming a tax haven - Good luck selling tax breaks for corporations to the British public when they're already being hammered by the economic impact of Covid + Brexit + probable tax rises of their own.

    So that's less freedom, money, influence and rights; and more risk, tax, trade friction and uncertainty. And in exchange, we still didn't get full sovereignty, still didn't get full border control, still have to abide by many EU rules, and also had to create a trade barrier within the UK itself.

    Sounds super.

    And if we went with the WTO deal instead?

    Seems to be still some considerable negative feelings about the 2016 vote.
    That is over, decision made. So all we are left with is what agreement we can reach - which has been done.
    I note SNP are voting against it. Perhaps they find WTO deal better what with the massive fishing fleet and the seed potatoes.
    Everyone else, get onto your mp to encourage them to vote. For or against this deal.

    If it ends up being chucked out then we still go with the previously agreed plan.
    And still sell to the EU and buy from the EU.
     
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    Scott-Copywriter

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    Good luck to all your friends in the EU who have this free "Irish route" into the UK. All it'll take them is living 5 years in Ireland and getting Irish citizenship first before coming here? Yes, easy peasy.

    For all practical purposes, we've got back control of our borders and you whine that we haven't really ....because there is the Irish Route into the UK?!

    Sure, it's a barrier. But to claim we have full control of our borders simply isn't true, is it? Nor is the claim of full sovereignty, full regulatory control or full escape from ECJ jurisdiction.

    I don't have the time to deal with all your whining, you were always going to be disappointed no matter what the deal. There's no point arguing with you and The Byre.

    If you don't have time to deal with my "whining" then perhaps you shouldn't have tagged me in your post and de facto invited me to respond to what you said.

    You're right, I was always going to be disappointed no matter what the deal. You know why? Because these issues could be seen from a mile off. The Irish border problem was always going to mean that we (at least in part) still had to abide by EU laws. And in exchange for tariff-free access, we were always going to be limited in terms of regulatory divergence, and we were always going to accept some kind of arbitration mechanism which means we can't just do whatever we want.

    So yes, I'm disappointed that we've sacrificed an awful lot to get relatively little in exchange that will do us much good, but this was always on the cards, so call me disappointed, but not surprised.

    I'm off to tell my kids not to worry about Erasmus because Turing gives them, and a vast swathe of underprivileged kids in the UK, the potential chance to go to non-EU universities like Harvard and Yale.

    The jury is still out on this one, as it depends entirely on what degree other countries and their universities wish to cooperate.

    And so far, the numbers don't add up. The Government has pledged around £100m for the scheme to send 35,000 students abroad. That's £2800 each. Good luck getting into Harvard with that. It wouldn't even cover basic living expenses.

    Anyway, while I think this deal is markedly worse than just staying in the EU, at least it's miles better than no deal and avoids the worse case scenarios of Brexit.
     
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    Clinton

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    For your reading pleasure:

    Very few PMs achieve great things, but Boris - like Margaret Thatcher - has proved that he's one of them

    Buffoon? No. Gambler? Yes. Now watch clever, crafty Boris seize the prize that will turn us all into winners

    The last-minute conclusion of the Brexit negotiations, on apparently better terms for Britain than the hapless Theresa May and Remainers foresaw, confirms that Boris, the unpredictable Gambler, outwitted impulsive rival players such as Emmanuel Macron, the French president, and Angela Merkel, the colourless German leader.

    Just like all his previous surprise victories – to become London's Mayor, win the Brexit referendum, seize the Tory Party leadership and storm to an 80-seat Commons majority – Boris allowed himself a smile but no chortling.

    Herald Scotland:
    But the biggest issues have been resolved. There will be no tariffs on British goods and services, and more importantly there will be no quotas on how much the UK can sell in Europe. These are massive wins. The PM is right to say that this is better than the Canada CETA deal where many tariffs and quotas apply.


    And do take a few minutes to read this: The small print of Boris’s Brexit deal makes for reassuring reading
    The Brexit deal takes things back to where they were before Maastricht. The EU is limited now in any meddling to very specific areas indeed. It ends the oddity where because circa seven per cent of UK business trade with the EU, 100 per cent have their laws made by the EU (although that is a bit more blurred in supply chains).

    In the small print of the deal, the remnants of failed EU attempts to fetter British sovereignty can be seen. Consider the ‘precautionary approach’. This slides in via footnote 49, disguising itself in footnote 52. But by the time it gets in as actual law (article 1.2 page 179) it’s clear that it has lost the battle; its words have no force. British negotiators seem to have seen to that. As long as one side has a plausible scientific argument, it may do as it likes. There are other failed EU power grabs in the text, none carrying force.
    The EU wanted to be able to subsidise EU industries while not allowing Britain to have the same rights to support companies here, like BiFab. That has gone too. The EU lost a lot of moral capital in the negotiations by its own attempts to have its cake and eat it.

    Go read something outside of the Sad Sack publications in your Remainer bubble.;)
     
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    Chris Ashdown

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    Regarding the fishing fleet, what else were we to do, the channel fleet is made up of lots on relatively new fishing boats from Denmark south, were we suggesting in 5 days time they would all be banned from our waters and forced to lay up terminally, five years does not seem that long in this case, and we don't have a fleet big enough to use the extra stocks that would be available anyway, and don't forget it was the UK boat owners who sold on the licences in the first place to Spanish and other operators
     
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    Mr D

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    Feb 12, 2017
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    Regarding the fishing fleet, what else were we to do, the channel fleet is made up of lots on relatively new fishing boats from Denmark south, were we suggesting in 5 days time they would all be banned from our waters and forced to lay up terminally, five years does not seem that long in this case, and we don't have a fleet big enough to use the extra stocks that would be available anyway, and don't forget it was the UK boat owners who sold on the licences in the first place to Spanish and other operators

    Course we weren't suggesting they lay up terminally.
    But yes they would have been banned unless we chose to let them use our waters. Thats what control of your waters gives you.

    They could of course continue to fish in EU waters. I imagine the other half of the channel could get a tad crowded....

    Of course the fact that we don't have a big enough fishing fleet to deal with our own waters is a minor consideration.
     
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    Paul Norman

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    Apr 8, 2010
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    I have not, and probably won't, read the deal in any great detail. It has a couple of administrative issues for me as a UK citizen living in the EU.

    Obviously, for those wishing to remain, it is not an ideal outcome because the UK did not remain. The decision as to how good a deal this is sits with those wishing to Leave, I guess, who must now decide whether this constitutes leaving or is, in fact, a fudge.

    It seems to me that it is leaving, though. And now it would be wisest for the UK to set about building it's future, which will involve the EU nations must less than it might have done. But focusing on the EU is no longer that key, relative to focusing on the rest of the world.
     
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    Clinton

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    Obviously, for those wishing to remain, it is not an ideal outcome because the UK did not remain.
    Wise words. That's the problem. So no matter what the deal involves, to the diehards it's a worse outcome than what they would have liked.

    Both the EU and the UK made concessions - that's how frigging deals work. And the EU made huge concessions, concessions that nobody thought they would make. That's a testament to our negotiating team. We should celebrate this instead of whining.

    But the diehards won't acknowledge that. Instead they will focus on the concessions made by the UK. They need to find some way of justifying the position they maintained all along.

    We got a lot more than any of the Remainers thought that we'd get. That riles them because it's contrary to what they've been claiming.

    Will it all be rosy and smooth sailing? Of course not. Not for us, not for the EU. It will take a while to unravel many of the intricate involvements. But the UK has shown that it is possible to leave the club and that the club, devious as it was in building disincentives to any member leaving, will hopefully learn lessons from this.

    If Britain thrives outside the EU, let me predict that some Remainers will still find stuff to b*tch about. Anything outside of full membership is anathema to them so they will continue to be unhappy about outcomes, whatever those outcomes are.

    The rest of us will try to make sense of the new world, navigate it, explore opportunities.

    Let me say that for those EU citizens who want to gain British residency, there's the route available of buying a UK business. :) Go talk to a good immigration lawyer.
     
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    Mr D

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    Feb 12, 2017
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    The government has today warned businesses and travellers to expect disruption from Friday. Why would there be disruption in the sunny uplands?

    Because we have a negotiated deal not a ratified and in place one?
    And the deal may not be agreed by the politicians. We know Boris is in favour of it. We know the SNP will vote against it.
    Still leaves thousands we do not know how they will vote.

    All this negotiation may be for nothing. And we leave on Thursday with WTO deal.

    So it's a good idea to warn people of disruption yes?
     
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    Scalloway

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    Jun 6, 2010
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    The government has today warned businesses and travellers to expect disruption from Friday. Why would there be disruption in the sunny uplands?

    True Brexit believers will ascend to the sunlit uplands on a golden cloud come 31st December. The rest of us will be stuck in passport control.
     
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    True Brexit believers will ascend to the sunlit uplands on a golden cloud come 31st December. The rest of us will be stuck in passport control.

    All of the media are talking about the problems that we will face when going on holiday but I really don't see being stuck in passport control is going to be very likely as the Spanish and Greeks are desperate for British holidaymakers and will do everything in their power to make life as simple as possible for holidaymakers.

    The media are also trying to make a big thing about roaming charges whilst abroad despite the fact that the major UK providers have said that they don't intend to change current tariffs. Anyway if roaming charges were re-introduced it would mainly affect those that can't live without social media
     
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    thetiger2015

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    Aug 29, 2015
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    Both the EU and the UK made concessions - that's how frigging deals work. And the EU made huge concessions, concessions that nobody thought they would make. That's a testament to our negotiating team. We should celebrate this instead of whining.

    But the diehards won't acknowledge that. Instead they will focus on the concessions made by the UK. They need to find some way of justifying the position they maintained all along.

    Yes but is that not the point of Remainer anger? You're swapping a perfectly acceptable set of circumstances for a sub standard agreement where we have had to make concessions? You even confirm and agree that concessions have been made. We already made concessions while members....what the hell was the point of all this!

    If Brexit was obviously going to be a glorious and amazing opportunity for all of our citizens then I'd of voted Leave but when questioned, the responses were vague and based on 'maybe' or 'if this then that'.

    Also, we were told the following by the government themselves:

    "We hold all the cards" Gove 2016
    "Getting out of the EU is quick and easy" Redwood 2016
    "The free trade agreement with the EU will be the easiest in history" Fox 2017
    "A free trade and customs agreement should be completed by March" Davis 2017

    How exactly have we come out of this any better than when we were in it?

    We had to have a transition period with fishing because the EU pointed out that we don't have any boats left. Don't you remember when fishermen were paid to have their boats scrapped? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/fishermen-forced-scrap-boats-and-cut-catches-1524112.html <<< yeah, big bad EU, we didn't stop them though did we? When we had the chance to? Why didn't the government tell them to sod off back to Brussels in the 90's?

    If Brexit had resulted in complete access to the EU, with all the benefits and non of the negatives, yeah...sign me up for some Brexit folks...I'll have a slice of that super beneficial and lovely pie!

    And no...the EU didn't fold...we did. BoJo was warning about No Deal in the middle of December but actually, he was flapping. Behind the scenes, he was told that No Deal would have been a disaster because the UK had made almost zero effort to sort anything out. The warnings got louder and louder, hence why he's taken the current deal on the table at the last minute. That's so painfully obvious, I don't see how people can be blind to it.

    Also, you voted Remain but then sided with Brexit almost instantly. You were also pro No Deal I seem to remember? Well, you didn't get what you wanted either. You've got a half baked pie in a broken oven, with Boris wiping the sweat from his singed brows using the Union flag.

    Nobody has come out of this with any benefit. Brexiteers have been sold down the river, they've ended up with a naff deal that's probably worse than Theresa's. Remainers have now got a half deal that takes away a lot of the benefits of the EU and swaps them with a continuation of the transition period in a lot of respects.

    For those who say cancelling schemes such as ERASMUS aren't a problem, nobody wants to go to Europe anyway - well:

    "All of the media are talking about the problems that we will face when going on holiday but I really don't see being stuck in passport control is going to be very likely as the Spanish and Greeks are desperate for British holidaymakers and will do everything in their power to make life as simple as possible for holidaymakers." <<<< and on this one, how is it a benefit to be stuck at passport control? Show me the benefit? Where is it? A minor inconvenience, sure, but that doesn't translate as a tangible benefit to the last 4 years of mucking about.
     
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    Mr D

    Free Member
    Feb 12, 2017
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    All of the media are talking about the problems that we will face when going on holiday but I really don't see being stuck in passport control is going to be very likely as the Spanish and Greeks are desperate for British holidaymakers and will do everything in their power to make life as simple as possible for holidaymakers.

    The media are also trying to make a big thing about roaming charges whilst abroad despite the fact that the major UK providers have said that they don't intend to change current tariffs. Anyway if roaming charges were re-introduced it would mainly affect those that can't live without social media

    The media tell a story designed to cater to their target audience.

    They have no interest in providing the truth, they have no requirement to alienate their customers.
    They will provide spoon fed pap that suits their customers ideologies.
    If they can also claim the sky is falling, the end of civil society and government going to take your kids off you then even better. But not required for the story they tell.
     
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    Mr D

    Free Member
    Feb 12, 2017
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    Yes but is that not the point of Remainer anger? You're swapping a perfectly acceptable set of circumstances for a sub standard agreement where we have had to make concessions? You even confirm and agree that concessions have been made. We already made concessions while members....what the hell was the point of all this!

    If Brexit was obviously going to be a glorious and amazing opportunity for all of our citizens then I'd of voted Leave but when questioned, the responses were vague and based on 'maybe' or 'if this then that'.

    Also, we were told the following by the government themselves:

    "We hold all the cards" Gove 2016
    "Getting out of the EU is quick and easy" Redwood 2016
    "The free trade agreement with the EU will be the easiest in history" Fox 2017
    "A free trade and customs agreement should be completed by March" Davis 2017

    How exactly have we come out of this any better than when we were in it?

    We had to have a transition period with fishing because the EU pointed out that we don't have any boats left. Don't you remember when fishermen were paid to have their boats scrapped? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/fishermen-forced-scrap-boats-and-cut-catches-1524112.html <<< yeah, big bad EU, we didn't stop them though did we? When we had the chance to? Why didn't the government tell them to sod off back to Brussels in the 90's?

    If Brexit had resulted in complete access to the EU, with all the benefits and non of the negatives, yeah...sign me up for some Brexit folks...I'll have a slice of that super beneficial and lovely pie!

    And no...the EU didn't fold...we did. BoJo was warning about No Deal in the middle of December but actually, he was flapping. Behind the scenes, he was told that No Deal would have been a disaster because the UK had made almost zero effort to sort anything out. The warnings got louder and louder, hence why he's taken the current deal on the table at the last minute. That's so painfully obvious, I don't see how people can be blind to it.

    Also, you voted Remain but then sided with Brexit almost instantly. You were also pro No Deal I seem to remember? Well, you didn't get what you wanted either. You've got a half baked pie in a broken oven, with Boris wiping the sweat from his singed brows using the Union flag.

    Nobody has come out of this with any benefit. Brexiteers have been sold down the river, they've ended up with a naff deal that's probably worse than Theresa's. Remainers have now got a half deal that takes away a lot of the benefits of the EU and swaps them with a continuation of the transition period in a lot of respects.

    For those who say cancelling schemes such as ERASMUS aren't a problem, nobody wants to go to Europe anyway - well:

    "All of the media are talking about the problems that we will face when going on holiday but I really don't see being stuck in passport control is going to be very likely as the Spanish and Greeks are desperate for British holidaymakers and will do everything in their power to make life as simple as possible for holidaymakers." <<<< and on this one, how is it a benefit to be stuck at passport control? Show me the benefit? Where is it? A minor inconvenience, sure, but that doesn't translate as a tangible benefit to the last 4 years of mucking about.

    Sorry, your post appears to be dated May 2016.
    Pointless rehashing the leave / stay arguments almost a year after we have left.

    Perhaps instead deal with the issues as they will be under either of the solutions.

    Or join whichever political party is campaigning to join the EU once they are in power. SNP perhaps.
     
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    There was no Brexit. That balls-up was not the Brexit that UK voters voted for.
    • The UK has handed Northern Ireland to the EU and thereby made union with the RoI inevitable.
    • The UK has created a border between Northern Ireland and Rest-UK.
    • The EU fishing fleet gets to keep access to UK waters.
    • The UK must continue to pay for access to free trade with the EU.
    • The UK must continue to pay into the EU defense fund.
    • UK services will lose their automatic right of access to the EU.
    • UK qualifications are no longer recognised in the EU.
    • UK manufacturers must continue to comply with EU rules.
    • Migrant labour will continue to have to come into the UK (for health care and farming!)

    We kept hearing the slogan "No deal is better than a bad deal!"

    Well, if you are a Brexiteer, that was a very bad deal. All J & Co have achieved is to prevent those with intelligence and initiative from working abroad. i.e. no Brexit.

    It will lead to the unification of Ireland (which I favour, but should have been a subject for democratic debate) and Scottish independence (which I also favour). Exactly how Englandshire is supposed to remain fiercely sovereign with two EU counties using the Euro right on its borders remains a clouded mystery!

    I shall watch developments with much amusement!
     
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