Brexit negotiations

Newchodge

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    What is the current status of Erasmus?

    It has other non-EU members, so I've always presumed we would stay in it.
    That sums up the Brexit supporters attitude to the whole thing. Why should you assume we would stay in it? Even if there are other non- EU members, did they just say me, too, pleae and be granted membership or did they have to negotiate a deal? Of course they had to negotiate membership. Have we negotiated membership? No. So why should you assume we can just carry on?
     
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    I didn't. My presumption was that we would stay in it. That may require some actions to do so. It's an EU agency rather than institution, so should be possible to remain a member.
    As I mentioned it would have been easy to stay in but the Brexiteers don't like the EU, period.

    It would have been easy and a lot cheaper to have extended the EU health card but the Brexiteers just cannot bring themselves to do what is best.
     
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    thetiger2015

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    If so, we seem to be in the same position that I posted about a few weeks/months ago, whereby we are now “celebrating” as wins elements that retain the status quo, I.e. things won’t get worse after Brexit than they are now. Which once again prompts me to ask the question: what will we gain from Brexit?

    The brexit argument is that we can rip up all the EU stuff and re-write new agreements, to the benefit of the UK.

    So we can negotiate trade and import/export tariffs with different blocs/nations without asking EU permission. Brexiteers argue that we can get better agreements and we can be more flexible and negotiate deals that benefit the UK as a whole. That bit...I get! I'm all on board for that....BUT...this all falls down, because the UK government are generally poor at negotiating anything. They were bad enough in the EU, they rolled over, they gave away lots of stuff just to get a slice of the EU pie and access to certain markets.

    What I am completely bamboozled by, is brexiteer belief that our government, the one that has rolled over through the Conservatives, through Labour, through the Con/Libs, is going to actually go and get us BETTER deals than we already have??

    We're re-negotiating agreements that are already in place and have got us to where we are now. The UK is one of the worlds biggest economies but brexiteers are saying we will be better on our own...even though we willingly agreed to everything before....and we now have to re-negotiate with countries that might not be keen on having to re-write another set of trade deals and customs stuff.

    I just don't understand where these forward thinking MPs and leaders are coming from, because the current crop don't match the template we need for a successful brexit.
     
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    Mr D

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    You can only vote for the person on the paper...you cannot say the voters have an abundance of talent to get behind.

    When voting, you now vote for the person that you think may do the least damage to your local area/country.

    Multiple candidates in each area that I know of.

    Part of the problem, one that has been known about for many years, is that the best people to be MPs won't stand as a candidate.
     
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    Newchodge

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    Multiple candidates in each area that I know of.

    Part of the problem, one that has been known about for many years, is that the best people to be MPs won't stand as a candidate.

    I thought it was the reverse of that - anyone who wants to be an MP should be automatically barred from standing!
     
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    Clinton

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    What I am completely bamboozled by, is brexiteer belief that our government, the one that has rolled over through the Conservatives, through Labour, through the Con/Libs, is going to actually go and get us BETTER deals than we already have??
    Then you don't understand how this works at all!

    When the EU does trade deals it has to take into account numerous special interest groups - french farmers, german parts suppliers, whatever. That generally results in a deal that's not very favourable to the UK. We end up paying higher tariffs on many of our imports because Spain or France or someone else wanted it!

    Admittedly, there are one or two exceptions where it works in the other direction - like the EU holding up a deal with India because of India's high tariffs on Scotch whisky.

    But, in the main, we are in a position to do much better deals with so many countries than the one we've got now through the EU, because we don't have to protect various EU special interest groups. But, yes, it will take some civil service man power that we don't have now and it will take time (because the EU maliciously decided to threaten countries to not negotiate future trade deals with us till we've actually left!)

    While the EU has protected so many sectors in EU countries, the big sector in the UK, financial, is treated differently. The EU has always been jealous of our financial sector and tried to take bits of that trade away from us (long before the Brexit vote) or just vindictively damage it.

    I appreciate people like @atmosbob @Newchodge etc see the financial sector as the enemy :) and are severely p*ssed off that 'their side' has caved on Clearing, but this sector is what generates a lot of the money that pays for the NHS and schools and all those benefits we hand out.
     
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    thetiger2015

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    Then you don't understand how this works at all!

    But, yes, it will take some civil service man power that we don't have now and it will take time (because the EU maliciously decided to threaten countries to not negotiate future trade deals with us till we've actually left!)

    While the EU has protected so many sectors in EU countries, the big sector in the UK, financial, is treated differently. The EU has always been jealous of our financial sector and tried to take bits of that trade away from us (long before the Brexit vote) or just vindictively damage it.
    .

    I don’t understand how it works at all...but then you go on to agree with what I said anyway. The U.K. lacks any decent negotiators and we are weak. Not because of our economy or because of the EU or brexit, but because of our own politicians who are feeble and laughed out of the dinner parties in Brussels.

    Clearing is only remaining for 12 months and due to the No Deal issue. If our government had a plan, they could keep clearing but the EU would want something of equal value. They can’t have the U.K., they can’t have instant access to our markets, so what can we trade in return for stopping Germany taking over as the financial hub of Europe over the next 2 or 3 years? The EU want clearing,..you admit that...so they’re going to get it and we have no way of stopping them because we are no longer invited to their evening soirées.
     
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    Clinton

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    They won't get clearing and I've explained why in various posts going back years! The current clearing deal is 12 months but it will become permanent, the EU have no choice (despite all their sabre rattling). London Clearing House clears 98% of euro swaps. Why? Because all the other currencies are here - LCH clears 90% of global swaps - and that liquidity is what keeps the system working! Break it and the EU lose billions.

    I'll leave it to you to tell Italy and Greece they'll have to pay a few more billion into EU coffers to cover the unnecessary and completely avoidable cost of moving clearing to Frankfurt. ;)

    The UK is also the de facto investment bank for EU businesses. Cut London out of the picture and the entire fabric of corporate finance in the EU collapses. Listed firms won't get finance to oil the wheels of industry and, in fact, many will almost immediately start breaching their banking convenants. More than 50% of all European investment firms (Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan etc) are based in Britain. They'll open branches in the EU post Brexit but the bulk of their operations will remain here. They don't have a choice either.

    Imagine if the UK went rogue. Or even just went Singapore. The financial sector could grow to an even bigger monster (one that even I shudder to imagine), and the EU would be the loser. I know, I know, it's difficult for Remainers to get their heads around the concept of the mouse pushing the elephant around, but that's because they've no idea how much the EU and EU companies rely on the UK financial sector.

    Yes, we don't have the trade negotiators, but that will change. Japan, the most vociferous foreign critics of Brexit, even more so than Obama, have agreed to have a trade deal with the UK in place by 29/03/19. Others, like Canada and Australia, will follow soon after as they are very keen. The US is keen but have become protectionist so a bit more difficult there, but not impossible. China and India are more tricky, politically, but again possible within 12 months. It's a lot easier to do trade deals with countries where we already have a lot of trade (under EU negotiated trade deals). It doesn't take as many civil servants as it otherwise would.
     
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    Newchodge

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    (because the EU maliciously decided to threaten countries to not negotiate future trade deals with us till we've actually left!)
    Interesting take on the EU requiring that we stick to the agreement to which wer were a party. Malicious of them to fail to allow us to brek the rules.
     
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    Mr D

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    I don’t understand how it works at all...but then you go on to agree with what I said anyway. The U.K. lacks any decent negotiators and we are weak. Not because of our economy or because of the EU or brexit, but because of our own politicians who are feeble and laughed out of the dinner parties in Brussels.

    Clearing is only remaining for 12 months and due to the No Deal issue. If our government had a plan, they could keep clearing but the EU would want something of equal value. They can’t have the U.K., they can’t have instant access to our markets, so what can we trade in return for stopping Germany taking over as the financial hub of Europe over the next 2 or 3 years? The EU want clearing,..you admit that...so they’re going to get it and we have no way of stopping them because we are no longer invited to their evening soirées.


    So we lack any decent negotiators yet somehow we managed over the years to get stuff we agree with passed by the EU.
    Amazing how we did that eh?

    Yes we are weak - we are leaving and both wanted cake and not wanting to pay for it. Would not surprise me if the instructions to negotiators were contradictory.
     
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    Clinton

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    Interesting take on the EU requiring that we stick to the agreement to which wer were a party. Malicious of them to fail to allow us to brek the rules.
    Er, we weren't trying to break any agreement or rules. We were seeking to negotiate new trade agreements to come into effect after we left ...but the EU wouldn't allow us to do so. That's purely malicious.

    The EU tied our hands just to make things awkward for UK politicians and to punish the UK. They had nothing to gain from it. I don't know what world you operate in but in mine that's not what friends do to each other.
     
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    Newchodge

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    Er, we weren't trying to break any agreement or rules. We were seeking to negotiate new trade agreements to come into effect after we left ...but the EU wouldn't allow us to do so. That's purely malicious.

    The EU tied our hands just to make things awkward for UK politicians and to punish the UK. They had nothing to gain from it. I don't know what world you operate in but in mine that's not what friends to do each other.
    We are bound by the treaties to which we agreed, which include the rule that no individual member of the EU many negotiate a trade deal. Until we leave we are a member and therefore may not negotiate a trade deal.

    I don't know what world you operate in but in mine friends don't make agreements with each other and expect to be allowed to break them whenever they want.
     
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    Mr D

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    Er, we weren't trying to break any agreement or rules. We were seeking to negotiate new trade agreements to come into effect after we left ...but the EU wouldn't allow us to do so. That's purely malicious.

    The EU tied our hands just to make things awkward for UK politicians and to punish the UK. They had nothing to gain from it. I don't know what world you operate in but in mine that's not what friends to do each other.

    Are we allowed under the rules we agreed to negotiate such matters?
     
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    Clinton

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    There is nothing in the rules to say we can or we can't! And under international law, when there isn't a bar to us negotiating these deals then we are free to go ahead. Except that the EU threatened other countries to not negotiate with us! This was debated extensively at the time and all parties agreed that the EU didn't have the law on their side (contrary to what @Newchodge seems to think) which is why the EU resorted to bullying instead and lying.

    The rules governing a country leaving the EU ...were never actually drawn up! The EU never considered that a country might actually leave! :) The the full text of article 50 is below - a complex matter dismissed in 262 words. An organisation that puts 20,000 words together on the size of rivets in aircraft didn't bother to put together a single A4 governing the withdrawal of a member state and to block them negotiating trade deals after triggering Article 50!

    Perhaps their history of getting the Irish and others to vote again and come to the "right" decision made them cocky that nobody would ever leave. ;)

    Complete text of A50:

    1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

    2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218 (3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

    3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

    4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it. A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

    5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.
    1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

    2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218 (3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

    3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

    4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it. A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

    5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.
     
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    Newchodge

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    I am not suggesting Article 50 precludes trade deals. EU membership precludes trade eals by members, not by 'soon to be ex-members' but by all members.
    I followed much of the discussions that have been ongoing and I don't recall anywhere saying that we were legally permitted to do deals while still members. What there was agreement on was that the EU could have agreed to our doing so as an exception. Refusing to relax the rules is very different to maliciously blakmailing others to do what the EU wanted but could not achieve legally.
     
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    Clinton

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    EU membership precludes trade eals by members, not by 'soon to be ex-members' but by all members.
    No, it doesn't preclude negotiating trade deals to come into effect after departure. We can negotiate them, we just can't sign these deals till we've actually left.

    Here, have a read through this (which I just added to my previous post).

    If I can prove to you that we had the legal right to negotiate deals, but the EU bullied other countries to not negotiate with us, would you agree that it was malicious and, possibly, just to put pressure on Britain to change its mind?

    In any case, we've already negotiated several trade deals (with countries, albeit minor countries, who refused to be bullied by the EU)!
     
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    Newchodge

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    A deal isn't done until it is signed. We have been negotiating with several potential partners, although we haven't reached any decent agreements with many yet, but there are about half a dozen ready to be signed at the beginning of April. The lack of decent deals has more to do with our abysmal negotiating skills and lack of much to offer than anything else.
     
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    Newchodge

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    I have never denied that we can discuss deals, we just can't, legally, do any, and no deal is final until it is signed.

    If the EU has been warning other countries off, how come they have been talking to us?
     
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    Clinton

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    Sorry, let's just step back a bit.

    You said we couldn't negotiate deals. Do you now agree that was wrong and are squirming a bit and trying to argue that by negotiate you meant sign, that when you said we couldn't negotiate deals you meant we couldn't sign deals.

    All previous talk about negotiating deals was in the context of the deal coming into effect after us leaving, not before. So the exact date of signing is not relevant because we weren't seeking to sign those deals now, we were only seeking to negotiate them! The negotiation is what takes time, not the act of putting a signature to it.

    It would seem you're speaking like a politician who's been caught out ;)

    At least you agree that we were free, all along, to negotiate deals.

    If, despite that, the EU went around telling countries to not negotiate with us and threatened them against negotiating with us, would you agree that was malicious and not the behaviour one would expect of a friend?
     
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    Scott-Copywriter

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    Then you don't understand how this works at all!

    When the EU does trade deals it has to take into account numerous special interest groups - french farmers, german parts suppliers, whatever. That generally results in a deal that's not very favourable to the UK. We end up paying higher tariffs on many of our imports because Spain or France or someone else wanted it!

    Admittedly, there are one or two exceptions where it works in the other direction - like the EU holding up a deal with India because of India's high tariffs on Scotch whisky.

    But, in the main, we are in a position to do much better deals with so many countries than the one we've got now through the EU, because we don't have to protect various EU special interest groups. But, yes, it will take some civil service man power that we don't have now and it will take time (because the EU maliciously decided to threaten countries to not negotiate future trade deals with us till we've actually left!)

    Incorrect. The most favoured nation clause puts a stop to that idea straight away.

    You're missing three key points:


    1). The MFN clause typical in free trade agreements, and WTO law itself, means that countries cannot offer us better terms than what they've already offered to other nations. Or if they do, they must then offer the same to all countries with which agreements are signed.

    "Better" can be subjective depending on different scenarios, and perhaps certain agreements could be tailored better to us, but we certainly won't gain "much better deals". Far from it. It's simply impossible under existing laws to, for example, have Japan give us lower tariffs than what they've already given the EU (and by extension, the 28 members).

    We'll be very lucky if we can merely replicate the terms we already have under EU membership, which brings us onto point 2:




    2). Opposing sides in an FTA negotiation are not dishing out greater access to their own markets out of the goodness of their hearts. They are doing it to win better market access in return. This is a battle of self-interest where the country wants as much access to the other market as possible while giving away as little access as they can to their own market.

    The results are lopsided trade agreements where one side "wins" more than the other. Just take a look at the China-Switzerland FTA.

    The key is leverage. The larger economy has a stronger hand. This is one of the key benefits of the single market and customs union. Relatively small countries can band together to create an economy nearly as big as the United States with 500 million consumers spanning a colossal mix of different markets, tastes and industries. The EU alone is not far off 25% of GLOBAL GDP, so for facilitated access to almost a quarter of the world's economy, the EU rightly expects major concessions which the opposing nation is hardly in a position to refuse in most cases.

    The result? Far more favourable FTAs than any individual EU member could gain on its own. So to expect the UK to lose a massive amount of leverage and still be able to twist the arm of other countries like the EU can is, frankly, a ridiculous notion.

    This brings us to point 3:




    3). While no country on earth is going to experience more than a 5%-15% disruption to their trade, we'll be losing the single market and EU-brokered FTAs that underpin more than 60% of our global trade.

    This, quite obviously, creates a position of weakness in negotiations. We are desperate to build those back up as quickly as we can. We cannot afford to be as picky or patient as any ordinary country (such as Japan or Canada) could be.

    Other countries know this, and as we're already beginning to see, they are playing hardball to win greater concessions that give them more favourable trading arrangements. Just look at the demands recently made by US special interest groups. If we don't like them, no US-UK deal. Stalled talks will make us sweat, not them.



    Put all three factors together, and it's painfully obvious, on numerous levels, that we cannot, and will not, come out of Brexit with better trade agreements compared to if we had stayed put. This is not even a valid point of contention. The whole idea is completely detached from reality.
     
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    Clinton

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    1). The MFN clause typical in free trade agreements, and WTO law itself, means that countries cannot offer us better terms than what they've already offered to other nations.
    So they cannot offer EU countries better terms than they offer us? Sounds good to me.

    2). Opposing sides in an FTA negotiation are not dishing out greater access to their own markets out of the goodness of their hearts. They are doing it to win better market access in return.
    Brilliant. So we can give them better access to the many areas in which we currently give that access to EU members! And we can get something in return? Sounds good to me.

    3). While no country on earth is going to experience more than a 5%-15% disruption to their trade, we'll be losing the single market and EU-brokered FTAs that underpin more than 60% of our global trade.
    This is the kind of scaremongering that doesn't help your case. Trade doesn't cease on 29/03. It'll continue on WTO terms!
     
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    Cobby

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    Granted Labour has moved to the left under Corbyn, the Conservatives are still where they were, it is only because so many people and the news talk about Brexit that people assume they have moved to the right. The ERG struggled for weeks to initiate a no confidence vote, their numbers are small.

    This current Conservative Gov has a larger tax percentage take, benefit payments etc than almost any Gov in history, hardly moving to the right, just people making an assumption that they are.
    You're correct. It has simply become a lot clearer recently just how far to the right the Conservatives have been.

    It's also worth bearing in mind the time-frame when discussing just how much money is involved in a thing; the Conservatives keep crowing about how they have given more money to the NHS than ever before, and when you simply look at a number that appears to be correct. The problem is, it's not true; as a percentage of GDP the funding they provide is much lower, but £3billion today isn't £3billion back in 1980. It's a sleight of hand and pretty dishonest.
     
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    Cobby

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    Most negotiations start from a position where the other side thinks you're completely bonkers!
    No they don't. That's absurd. Most negotiations begin with each side already knowing the rough position of the other party. This is the kind of thing one is likely to hear from someone who wants to publicly claim negotiation experience without actually having any.


    I don't see Cobby's posts, thank goodness. I've got him on ignore. But he seems to be getting excited again and posting in this thread. In the unlikely event he says something sensible perhaps someone will repost that.
    A further part of privilege is the absolute unwillingness to listen to anyone who can successfully challenge an idea or hold a person accountable for their claims. Such is the arrogance of uninformed privilege.


    Farage hates foreigners?

    His ex wife was Irish. His current wife is German. Perhaps your information about what he hates is … wrong?
    No, he's been demonstrably racist and bigoted in both his actions and speech, and if you aren't aware of how racists handle things like having family members that belong to a group they hate, then I suggest you go and speak to some minorities about their experiences (which might be tough, I hear Russia is becoming quite the hetero, white ethnostate these days). You'll hear a lot of phrases like, "well, yeah, but she/he's not like them".
     
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    Cobby

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    Then you don't understand how this works at all!
    Do you? Or is your position based upon an endless string of assumptions, straw men and insults? Let's have a look!...

    When the EU does trade deals it has to take into account numerous special interest groups - french farmers, german parts suppliers, whatever.
    * - citation needed

    That generally results in a deal that's not very favourable to the UK.
    * - citation needed

    We end up paying higher tariffs on many of our imports because Spain or France or someone else wanted it!
    * - citation needed

    like the EU holding up a deal with India because of India's high tariffs on Scotch whisky.
    * - citation needed

    we are in a position to do much better deals with so many countries than the one we've got now through the EU, because we don't have to protect various EU special interest groups.
    * - citation needed

    (because the EU maliciously decided to threaten countries to not negotiate future trade deals with us till we've actually left!)
    * - citation needed

    or just vindictively damage it.
    * - citation needed

    I appreciate people like @atmosbob @Newchodge etc see the financial sector as the enemy :) and are severely p*ssed off that 'their side' has caved on Clearing,
    * - citation (and possible apology) needed


    Well, having looked over your post, the conclusion seems pretty clear... :D
     
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    Newchodge

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    You're correct. It has simply become a lot clearer recently just how far to the right the Conservatives have been.

    It's also worth bearing in mind the time-frame when discussing just how much money is involved in a thing; the Conservatives keep crowing about how they have given more money to the NHS than ever before, and when you simply look at a number that appears to be correct. The problem is, it's not true; as a percentage of GDP the funding they provide is much lower, but £3billion today isn't £3billion back in 1980. It's a sleight of hand and pretty dishonest.
    It's the same with benefit payments, which have not increased for each claimant, for some years. Benefit caps, housing benefit caps, council tax benefit caps. It doesn't matter how much the government spends on social security, it matters how much each claimant gets. That figure has been going steadily down.
     
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    Mr D

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    You're correct. It has simply become a lot clearer recently just how far to the right the Conservatives have been.

    It's also worth bearing in mind the time-frame when discussing just how much money is involved in a thing; the Conservatives keep crowing about how they have given more money to the NHS than ever before, and when you simply look at a number that appears to be correct. The problem is, it's not true; as a percentage of GDP the funding they provide is much lower, but £3billion today isn't £3billion back in 1980. It's a sleight of hand and pretty dishonest.


    So is their claim correct or is it not true?
    Have they given the NHS more money than ever before?
     
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    Mr D

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    Stirling
    It's the same with benefit payments, which have not increased for each claimant, for some years. Benefit caps, housing benefit caps, council tax benefit caps. It doesn't matter how much the government spends on social security, it matters how much each claimant gets. That figure has been going steadily down.

    So how are they making the figures go steadily down without the media finding out about it?
    Quick, contact the Daily Mail. They should be able to campaign to get the benefits put back to what they should be.
     
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    Mr D

    Free Member
    Feb 12, 2017
    28,915
    3,627
    Stirling
    No, he's been demonstrably racist and bigoted in both his actions and speech, and if you aren't aware of how racists handle things like having family members that belong to a group they hate, then I suggest you go and speak to some minorities about their experiences (which might be tough, I hear Russia is becoming quite the hetero, white ethnostate these days). You'll hear a lot of phrases like, "well, yeah, but she/he's not like them".

    Being racist and hating foreigners are not the same thing.
     
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    D

    Deleted member 59730

    But, in the main, we are in a position to do much better deals with so many countries than the one we've got now through the EU, because we don't have to protect various EU special interest groups.
    Obviously you don't understand the concept of community and helping our neighbours. By improving prosperity across the continent we are pushing back the chances of future wars and conflicts. In a world where every man and every country thinks only of itself there will be precious little world left to fight over.
     
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    Cobby

    Free Member
    Oct 28, 2009
    4,079
    857
    Theresa May postpones meaningful vote on final Brexit deal
    https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ostpones-meaningful-vote-on-final-brexit-deal

    As expected the arch Brexiteer delays the vote again. She and her government have been extremely opaque and have taken every tactic available to bypass the sovereignty of parliament, including now running down the clock.

    Once March 12th rolls around we can expect more last minute shenanigans with our archaic political procedures so she can try and achieve her goals without involving parliament.

    Still haven't heard a a peep from Brexiters who claim to care about sovereignty though...
     
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