Bar Startup

[DiscoFudge]

Hello all. First post here. Its a long one so my apologies

After a few years of disillusionment & increasing dissatisfaction in our present jobs, my wife & I are looking to do something more fulfilling. We are in the fortunate position that we have been able to save – not a huge amount, but hopefully enough to start something up. As such we are in the very early stages of setting up our own bar. I feel it is worth pointing out that we do not wish to do this as a brewery leaseholder. Also, we have no experience in any area of this industry. Besides both of us having worked in bars when we were younger.

We are both well aware of the statistics linked to bar/pub/nightclub closures in recent years. As well as the increased intolerance of both local residents & councils on noise issues. Nonetheless, we are wishing to push ahead and hopefully defy the odds.

We are finding quite a few stumbling blocks before we can even get started:

1. Finding any good specific help out there. i.e. everything seems to be geared towards generic style workshops. And while I can see their use. With all respect everything is a bit ‘fluffy’, if that makes sense. And there is only so much we can learn from sitting through a 2 hr workshop hearing about how different people set up a cafe, hairdresser or cake shop. Ideally we would like to find some sort of bar startup expert who would give us 1:1 time with actual specific knowledge. If we have to pay a bit extra for this, we are happy to do so. Just so we can start making proper headway.

2. All advice available seems to be telling us what to do to get funding and how important a business plan is. At this stage without knowing where our premisses will be; it is very difficult to have a business plan of any great accuracy. I.e. where our bar is will very much influence the demographic of the customers and as such, the overall look of the interior. And without knowing the condition/size/layout of the building, it is very difficult to budget for this unknown quantity to any sort of accuracy too. Finally, whilst we have savings that will hopefully cover things; again without knowing the specifics of our premisses, it is again impossible to know if we will need any additional funding.

3. Any sort of startup business professional we speak to is very put off by us having no experience in the trade. We have been advised time and time again to go the route through the brewery leasehold method. Again, this is not something we wish to do. Whilst this is obviously a safer option, we don’t want the restrictions that this involves. It is worth stressing that we are looking at getting a smaller place (to start with at least) that perhaps accommodates between 30 and 80 customers. Yes, it will be a challenge but we would like to think a small place would be manageable between us. My wife is also looking at continuing her current job for the first year (unless thing go iminaginably well to begin with), so we at least have some money coming in to keep things afloat in the difficult first year. It also adds the potential of being more able to afford to pay staff from an early stage.

4. The area of town that is our first choice of location has many empty trade units: old shops, cafe’s takeaways, hairdressers etc. There are a couple that are bars. I have had no luck getting in touch with the owners to find out what is happening with these buildings and if they are available for lease. This includes using the land registry and writing (no phone numbers provided) to the listed owner. We would be happy to open a pop-up to test the water so to speak. If only we could get in touch with the current landlord(s). Anyone have any idea on how to find out about empty units and their availability?

5. We have been led to believe it is tricky to get an A4 License for drinks licenses. As such our first choice would be a building that already has 1. However, as they are few and far between; we would like to know if it is possible to apply to the council for a change of use in this respect for a building that you do not currently have a lease with. This is to save us taking out a lease and then finding out we cannot sell drinks there. And if you can do this. What are the typical waiting times for gaining such an A4 license, even if the answer is a no?

If you’ve got this far, thanks for bearing with me! I realise I’ve written a lot. But there are so many ‘what if’s’ at present that its proving quite tricky to even make a start on this venture happening at all. If anyone can answer any of my many many questions I would be eternally grateful. Or even if someone can point me towards the right people/schemes etc, it would be a massive massive help.

Many thanks

Harry

 

[Scalloway]

2. All advice available seems to be telling us what to do to get funding and how important a business plan is. At this stage without knowing where our premisses will be; it is very difficult to have a business plan of any great accuracy. I.e. where our bar is will very much influence the demographic of the customers and as such, the overall look of the interior. And without knowing the condition/size/layout of the building, it is very difficult to budget for this unknown quantity to any sort of accuracy too. Finally, whilst we have savings that will hopefully cover things; again without knowing the specifics of our premisses, it is again impossible to know if we will need any additional funding.

What I would do is leave anything to do with the premises till you have something concrete. You can still sit down and do some planning as to how the premises will be run eg gross profit, staffing required etc.

3. Any sort of startup business professional we speak to is very put off by us having no experience in the trade.

With pubs run by professionals closing at the rate of 20 or 30 a week I am not surprised. Running a pub is not turning up in the morning and spending the day chatting with the regulars. I have had 25 years experience bookkeeping in the licensed trade. Can you deal with

• Unreliable staff
• Thieving staff
• The local drunk who puts your other customers off
• The noisy drunks who put your other customers off but spend a fortune when they are in
• Having to fix the toilets when the pub is heaving
• Being polite to people you can't stand because they're mates with your regulars

And a lot of other things I probably could add.

 

[patientlady]

Hi Discofudge
I have been involved In this industry for many years now, and I have to say that my initial reaction to your post is please just forget this idea, and think of something else that will make you money for the very long hours you will work. The investment that you will need to make it profitable would be a great deal more than savings. Please be prepared to lose your hard earned savings. There are hundreds of very experienced operators in this trade that barely scrape minimum wage.
However you have made up your mind and will not take heed, so my advice would be

• Be prepared to take on the premises you choose but have at least 6 months capital to trade with
• Be prepared for your wife to carry on working throughout the lease/tenancy you take on
• Please take a job for at least 3 months in a pub/ restaurant to get some experience

Decide what style of bar you wish to open, before taking in a premises. Craft bar, wine bar, gin champagne bar, wet led, or whatever. Once decided put together an interim business plan. One that decides whether you will have staff, no staff, wife included
Then look for the premises. Will you need a cellar ? Outside seating? Kitchen? Chef? Accomadation? Lock up?
you mentioned fluffy training courses, I really think that working in a bar will give you all the training you will need. The mathematics will then become obvious.
Sorry for negativity, but I am afraid I have seen too many hard working people lose a great deal of money, marriages and health to be positive p/l

 

[DiscoFudge]

With pubs run by professionals closing at the rate of 20 or 30 a week I am not surprised. Running a pub is not turning up in the morning and spending the day chatting with the regulars. I have had 25 years experience bookkeeping in the licensed trade. Can you deal with

• Unreliable staff
• Thieving staff
• The local drunk who puts your other customers off
• The noisy drunks who put your other customers off but spend a fortune when they are in
• Having to fix the toilets when the pub is heaving
• Being polite to people you can't stand because they're mates with your regulars

These are perhaps some of the area's I am most prepared for

• In terms of staffing issues: We are aiming to have an incentive based approach to staffing. We will try and create an atmosphere in which employee's feel valued and invested in the business. We shall make it beneficial for them for the business to have busy nights/high takings. This will hopefully encourage them to bring in additional customers as well as discouraging thieving
• Re: The local drunk/noisy drunks. I am currently a mental health nurse. I am very well versed in conflict resolution, as well having to take a hard line when necessary.
• My brother in law is a plumber. He has taught me the basics and is happy to step in when required
• Being polite to annoying punters: Again due to my current job; I am also well used to having to smile and take it with people I don't necessarily like.

I appreciate the advice and warning. However; I didn't think it would be so difficult to get practical advice besides "don't do it". I am very aware its very difficult. I did however come on here to try and get guidance besides this. As I mentioned in my original post; this is what most other people have already told me and my aim in coming onto a forum such as this was to get more specific/insider knowledge/tips.

After having read this back , I realise I may have come across as a bit harsh and/or ungrateful. That was not my intention. But there are only so many times I can handle being told "you're a naive idiot, don't do it". I know its a big risk and its something I'm willing to put everything on the line for.

 

[PaulBappoo]

This is really strange, you are basically saying that you want to take your life savings and your jobs and put them all at risk in order to live a dream that you know very little about. Have I got it wrong or is that pretty much the measure of it?

I am all about encouraging people to be independent, to live their dreams and to break free from the rat race - absolutely people should be doing that and living lives that are their own, even if that sometimes involves a bit of pain and frustration over and above what one would experience in a normal day job. But for me excitement and independence over boredom and servitude any day.

However, NOT at the expense of everything you have!

I did exactly what you are thinking of doing many years ago and ran a restaurant and a nightclub and it was a great adventure, a lot of fun and I don't regret doing it, but I had a lot going for me - I supplied entertainment and promotion to a huge number of the local nightlife places before deciding to open my own. I absolutely knew how to get people through the door an buying pints and I had plenty of experience dealing with the less friendly side of the business.

There are so many things you could do that dont put your savings at such great a risk, you should do one of those and then save the bar dream for later once you have some stability and other income. If you absolutely dont want to do that then you should try to mitigate your risks as much as possible by learning about the business from the inside. Go get jobs working in bars and see what works and what doesnt nowadays.

Finally, to answer one of your questions, you can go to different towns in different parts of the country and speak to some bar / restaurant owners. Many of them are very friendly and happy to advise someone in your position. Lookout for the ones who have had a long career at it and possibly run multiple establishments.

Whatever you decide to do, best of luck!

 

[Chris Ashdown]

There are many theme type Burger type restaurants in most towns which have a separate bar for customers and outsiders to use

The fast food brings in family etc for £10-15 per head meals plus drinks and bar can make additional money

Far less risk, simple food menu

May be worth considering as a half and half solution

 

[billmccallum1957]

Where are you and where do you want to be? (I do mean location)

Nearly everything you want will depend on location.

and thanks for inventing a new word "iminaginably"

 

[sminter1st]

We are a couple of weeks away from opening a restaurant/bar, after working 10 years plus abroad in bars and restaurants, and running our own restaurant for 8 years, then moving to the UK, then starting with a burger van, then moving up to a takeaway, and now finally reaching the stage we're ready to open a restaurant. In no way would we have been ready any earlier than this, to start this size of business. I wouldn't jump in with everyone and say don't do it, but I suggest making some sort of five year plan to aim towards what you want to do. If your wife can continue working, and as people have suggested you can get some work in the bar trade, it will be invaluable to you. You need to know things like keeping track of stock, seasonal ups and downs, it will take you about a year to thoroughly research suppliers, if food is involved it makes things at least doubly complicated. You need to think about what your unique selling point is, will you have live music, will you be specialising in certain drinks (which you will have to make yourself an expert on), what theme or decor are you going for, how will you advertise, the list goes on. We have a folder with each area we want to develop and go into it in more and more detail, ie start with seating arrangements, decide the layout, decide what style of table and chairs, research costs, down to individual salt and pepper containers. We specialise in Greek food, for which there's not another restaurant around for at least a half hour drive.

You need to be extremely familiar with the area you wish to open. Start by going out yourself in those areas on weekdays, at weekends, see how many people are about, what's the security like, and the feel of a night out there, is it rowdy, is it an area with big groups of young people, students, or older couples etc...

Speak to the local police for advice, make friends with the council, talk to absolutely anyone you find with any experience.

Good luck with your enterprise. We are still at an early stage ourselves but anything you want to ask us, go for it

 

[DiscoFudge]

Where are you and where do you want to be? (I do mean location)

Nearly everything you want will depend on location.

and thanks for inventing a new word "iminaginably"

Didn't notice the typo!

We're in Bristol. If you know the city at all; Our 1st choice location is in the Old Market area. Although there are other parts of town we would consider. This part of town seems to be quite up and coming (although they have been saying that for a few years now). Its very central and rents are still relatively low.

 

[Mark T Jones]

In addition (and to repeat) much of the above. You already know it is a tough trade with a high failure rate. IMHO a significant factor in failure is that people fixate on the bar (food and drink) rather than the business itself

With some time at your disposal, what it would do would include

- get work in a bar/restaurant part time (there is usually lots available)
- get your personal licence
- attend some fluffy courses. Ultimately a bar is a business like any other if the course is just half good, you will learn stuff that will help with both planning and execution of the business
- create a clear vision of what it is you want to offer/achieve

All of the above is valuable groundwork for your business plan (which in itself is about far more than words on paper)

Also remember, it is very easy to fill a town centre pub - usually with fighters, drunks, drug dealers and other folk who have been barred from elsewhere. It is tempting to take their money, but ultimately will ruin your reputation from day 1

I've done a fair amount of work financing pub refurbs as a broad shot I'd say the most likely to succeed are those who go minimal and focus on marketing rather than those who really splash out hoping pretty fittings will drive the crowds

 

[billmccallum1957]

take a look here https://propertylink.estatesgazette.com/property-details/6145607-king-square-avenue-bristol-bs2-8hu

 

[DiscoFudge]

I did see that place. The rent is within our range, but if you note it has no windows at present. This along with the fact that the inside is a fair state means it would cost far too much for us to get fit for purpose.

 

[Mark T Jones]

I did see that place. The rent is within our range, but if you note it has no windows at present. This along with the fact that the inside is a fair state means it would cost far too much for us to get fit for purpose.

A useful benchmark for theoretical costings?

 

[DiscoFudge]

A useful benchmark for theoretical costings?

Perhaps. Although I don't know how I could estimate how a place in that location of similar size would be rent-wise if it had windows etc

 

[DiscoFudge]

Just throwing an additional idea out there....

What are peoples thoughts if I got a short term lease on an empty unit. i.e. a pop up bar with a lease of a few months. To test the water so to speak

 

[Mark T Jones]

Perhaps. Although I don't know how I could estimate how a place in that location of similar size would be rent-wise if it had windows etc

Agreed, it won't be reliable. However you are currently stuck in a vicious circle which is preventing you from planning. The most effective way to get a plan rolling is to use some hard data (even if it is very likely to change) - the draft of your plan immediately prior to will bear little relationship to the first draft (if you are doing it properly)

 

[billmccallum1957]

Are you expecting to find an existing bar and move in without doing any work?

It's not really likely that you will find one that's affordable, complete premises with licence would cost you £200K just to move in (approximate).

Look at places like this http://createyourownmicropub.blogspot.co.uk/

 

[Opinion87]

As others have said, GET EXPERIENCE before you do this. Everyone thinks owning a bar/pub/club is going to be great fun, husband and wife working together having a drink and a laugh with their friends at the bar etc. etc. It's not. It's nothing like that at all. Cash flow wise, I think someone above said have six months in reserve- I'd go for more than that. Six months is when your honeymoon period will end. I'd want to have at least twelve months in the bank if I was starting over.

 

[tees84]

Picking up on an old thread - how did you get on with this Discofudge?

 

[DiscoFudge]

Hi. for various reasons (sometimes life gets the better of you) I've had to put plans on hold for the time being. Its still something I'm wanting to pursue though. But as things are I won't be able to start making proper plans for another 6 months or so. On the plus side; it means I'll be able to put aside at least another few thousand pounds for starting up.

An avenue I'll be more likely to pursue will be the 'micropub' model. However only loosely. I.e it'll be more like a microbar. Varying from the micropub model in that it won't be specialising in real ales etc. And I will be wanting music, TV's etc.

I'll no doubt come back to this thread when I re-begin start up plans again.

 

[The Byre]

There are certain types of business, where there once was a real chance of making real money. A whole mythology and ethos then develops out of that and that creates dreams in the heads of many.

Recording studios were all such a case. Back in the 60s, it cost thousands to set up a proper studio and the technology was changing so rapidly, that the 8-track tape machine of '66 that cost as much as a house, was worthless by '70, as the 16-track came along - which was replaced in the early 70s by the 24-track. Each costing about the same as a modest house and each worthless within years. The same happened to every other piece of equipment.

But music acts HAD to go into studios to get records made, so those that got onto the band-wagon nice and early, made money for a while.

A dream was created! Build a recording studio and live off the fat of the land! Hang out with the rich and famous! Be windswept and groovy!

The reality - they all went bust! The clever ones had bought the building and sold up for millions in some cases. The foolhardy leased and lost everything!

But the dream refuses to die! All sorts of lunatics start studios even today, ranging from sinking millions into crazy OTT projects, to lock-ups in garages. And they all fail. Three studios in London remain busy, living in no small part from corporate events and other revenue streams. The rest are in reality, vanity projects.

Running a pub or bar is EXACTLY the same. There was a time, when that gig worked and worked really well. Early retirement, find a pub, buy it or rent it off the brewery and become the Jovial Host! That business model worked until about 1960.

Just as home recording destroyed the groovy studio idea for all, except big orchestral projects, various laws (drink-driving, smoking, noise abatement, H&S) and cheap booze in supermarkets is killing all but the tightly calculated larger chains in inner cities.

But the dream of becoming 'Mine Host' lives on!

The reality - the small fry are going bust! The clever ones had bought the building and sold up for large sums in some cases. The foolhardy leased and lose everything!

Please think about it!

 

[DiscoFudge]

Please see all my previous responses. I'm growing quite tired and bored of being told I'm an idiot and it will go bust. If you don't have any helpful advice to give me, please don't reply.

I know its risky. Various people repeating this in different way's with different analogies/comparisons etc is not helping.

 

[The Byre]

You received constructive advice, all of which boiled down to "Get lots of experience first!"

It is sadly very common in such cases for people to be looking for magic answers, rather than the boring stuff, like work in the business first.

But running a bar is really just down to experience. Why is the barkeep counting straws in a glass? Is that really our till-roll? I thought we only had three barrels of beer, where did the fourth come from? Why are the waitresses putting so much ice in the cokes? Questions to make an experienced pub landlord smile.

Even if you can answer those questions, it takes experience to spot them (and so many, many other things) happening. But not spotting them will crush you.

You are right, it is risky! But it is only risky if you are experienced. Not having experience in the bar/pub business removes all risk - and make failure a dead certainty!

 

[DiscoFudge]

You didn't though. You basically told me not to do it. If you did some reading about the micropub concept; you'd see that start up costs are low and also most landlords have come from a wide spectrum of previous industries.

Most importantly however, they seem to be a successful business model. Its not going to make me rich, but would certainly be a more manageable/sustainable plan as opposed to opening a 'normal' pub/bar.

 

[Mark T Jones]

You didn't though. You basically told me not to do it. If you did some reading about the micropub concept; you'd see that start up costs are low and also most landlords have come from a wide spectrum of previous industries.

Most importantly however, they seem to be a successful business model. Its not going to make me rich, but would certainly be a more manageable/sustainable plan as opposed to opening a 'normal' pub/bar.

If you're going to be detracted by forum posts, you probably aren't ready for the hard knocks of business life

Whilst the outlay - so potentially the risk - is lower in a micro pub, the revenue streams are very limited - hence the capacity to make real money is limited. The fact remains that you need some real experience - either of running a business or of working within a catering environment to take away a chunk of the risk

 

[The Byre]

A micropub is a better idea than a regular pub!

The funny thing is, that the micropub didn't start recently - it is what pubs originally all were!

One of the oldest pubs in the World was a micropub for most of its history! Zur Glocke in the small town of Trier in Germany was first mention in 1803, when they started serving food, but it was a pub long before that. Nobody really knows when it started. It was probably just someone selling self-brewed beer in the front room.

www.glocke-trier.de

When I used to go there, they just sold onion soup with bread and Bitburger Pils. It is where I saw my present wife lay a guy out cold with a solid right cross. It was just one of those places! Everybody went there and it was always packed every day of the week!

They have extended the menu under new ownership and opened up rooms at the back and built a new kitchen.

In the same town, a Romany Gypsy called Emil started a gay bar called the Tüff-Tüff. It was truly tiny, but it was the first gay bar in that town back in 1975, so, despite being just 30 sq m plus a loo, it was packed to breaking point every night and the owner had to post a doorman to only let people in, when someone came out. He earned one hell of a lot of money with that place and went on to open other gay bars that he could expand.

I remember in Ireland in the 60s and into the 70s, some pubs were just some men, sat around a table with a few candles on it, drinking beer and chatting.

The moral of those two pubs (Kneipen) is that you have to be full to the rafters, all day, every day, to make them work.

 

[Opinion87]

An avenue I'll be more likely to pursue will be the 'micropub' model. However only loosely. I.e it'll be more like a microbar. Varying from the micropub model in that it won't be specialising in real ales etc. And I will be wanting music, TV's etc.

Music, perhaps, but TV's? I can't imagine anyone going to a micropub/bar would want TV's. It'd instantly put me off. If I want TV's/sports, there are ample venues that can provide that. You can't be all things to all people, and if you're going to go down this route, I really think you need to really nail down exactly what your target market is.

Our local micropub survives because it has the same 10-15 "old boys" in there every night without fail. They serve cask ales, local and national, craft by the keg, draught cider along with 200 bottled and canned beers from around the world. No music, no TV, no thrills, just a very passionate owner.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Tesco Prices
Fosters Lager 20 x 440ml @ £13.00
1 x Ltr Vodka @ £19.00
1 x Ltr Bells Whisky @ 19.00
70CC Famous Grouse @ £12.00

Do you think these prices have something to do with the thousands of pubs that close down every year

 

[Opinion87]

Tesco Prices
Fosters Lager 20 x 440ml @ £13.00
1 x Ltr Vodka @ £19.00
1 x Ltr Bells Whisky @ 19.00
70CC Famous Grouse @ £12.00

Do you think these prices have something to do with the thousands of pubs that close down every year

Yep. You can't compete on price, you have to sell the atmosphere and experience, as ultimately that's what people are paying for.

 

[Mark T Jones]

Tesco Prices
Fosters Lager 20 x 440ml @ £13.00
1 x Ltr Vodka @ £19.00
1 x Ltr Bells Whisky @ 19.00
70CC Famous Grouse @ £12.00

Do you think these prices have something to do with the thousands of pubs that close down every year

Not as much as you might imagine - home drinking & pub drinking aren't really competitors

Drink driving, smoking bans and our own gentrification pay a significant role.

Also, the majority of closures are suburban pubs - the group drinkers have worked out it is cheaper & more fun to get a cab into town and drink in Wetherspoons.

Micro pubs tend to be town based - you need good footfall either from a local conurbation or shoppers to keep them busy.

 

[stender]

This is all too vague. Bars still work if in the right location and the right concept. Yes pubs are closing at a rate but doesn't mean none will work out. As for the OP to give my two penneth. Don't take this wrong but you probably will but you seem quite nieve to this and alarm bells are ringing to me. I don't know what your budget is but you can create a vague business plan to get an idea on budget etc. As suggested lease an existing pub for a year to get some experience then you will have all the facts on costs/margins etc.. I know someone who owns a bar, works all the hours and no holidays. Runs over the road to tesco when they have litre spirits for £15.