Banning children from shops

[Zeno]

I have a client who would like to ban children (all children, even accompanied) from his shop.

Can he legally do this?

(He is happy to trade off the resulting negative publicity and reduction in custom for the perceived benefits of reduction in breakages, theft etc)

 

[GRDCredit]

Someone else will no doubt answer the legal question but I am intrigued! I know several local shops that limit the number of children at a time - due to shoplifting concerns etc - but I do not know of any who ban all children even when accompanied by parents. He is no doubt going to alienate many people!

What does he sell. (Don't tell me, it's a toy shop!)


Geoff

 

[Zeno]

Someone else will no doubt answer the legal question but I am intrigued! I know several local shops that limit the number of children at a time - due to shoplifting concerns etc - but I do not know of any who ban all children even when accompanied by parents. He is no doubt going to alienate many people!

What does he sell. (Don't tell me, it's a toy shop!)


Geoff

He deals in high end ornaments. He has an "all breakages must be paid for in full" policy however actually enforcing this proves rather difficult.

He says that many of the mothers do not seem to care that the brats run riot in his shop. In fact, he and his staff are often verbally abused if they dare to suggest that they try to bring their children under control.

 

[Mattonella Tile Studio]

AFAIK it's not illegal. There was a kerfuffal about a local cafe that banned children, but just bad publicity, no legal repurcusions.

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

Alternatively, he could go the other way, and provide a dedicated corner with some books, some lego, colouring etc, and give them something to do whilst in his store to give their parents time to browse properly in peace.

 

[JElder]

Not a lawyer, but it's your shop, not a public place, so you can exclude anyone you want to (although disability and other discrimination rules apply!)

However, you will alienate a lot of people, even those without children. I would suggest a more subtle sign saying that they are not toys, and asking parents to ensure their children do not play with them. You could consider the layout so that more valuable and fragile things are on higher shelves. Depending on space, you could even have corner with a couple of kids book, toys and a small stool to encourage them to stay there while their parents browse.

 

[JElder]

Alternatively, he could go the other way, and provide a dedicated corner with some books, some lego, colouring etc, and give them something to do whilst in his store to give their parents time to browse properly in peace.

Beaten to it!

 

[Zeno]

The problem is that the parents (almost always Mothers but sometimes Daddy is along too) who do not care that their children are ill behaved or running about making a noise. They will also point blank refuse to pay for any breakages.

There have been various incidents over the past few months, the most upsetting was when one of his employees (a 63 year old Grandmother) removed an expensive item from a small boys hand who was then threatened by the Mother & friend and then questioned by the police.

I am afraid that as all signs are ignored just now, that another one wouldn't do any good.

Wouldn't providing facilities for children cause more problems? It is a pretty small shop.

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

I am afraid that as all signs are ignored just now, that another one wouldn't do any good.

Wouldn't providing facilities for children cause more problems? It is a pretty small shop.

The problem with this though is that it bans all parents with Children just because (probably) a small proportion are genuinely badly behaved.

The majority of the other children are probably not genuinely badly behaved, simply bored and frustrated.

I know an outdoor clothing shop I used to go to that had a lego table in the shop, and my children took me in there every time we were in that town, regardless of whether or not I actually needed to get anything in there.

If the parents have a choice of going to a shop with something to keep the children preoccupied and another shop without - which will they choose?

 

[Zeno]

The problem with this though is that it bans all parents with Children just because (probably) a small proportion are genuinely badly behaved.

The majority of the other children are probably not genuinely badly behaved, simply bored and frustrated.

I know an outdoor clothing shop I used to go to that had a lego table in the shop, and my children took me in there every time we were in that town, regardless of whether or not I actually needed to get anything in there.

If the parents have a choice of going to a shop with something to keep the children preoccupied and another shop without - which will they choose?

You are correct that the problem is with the minority and I appreciate that the sprogs are bored. (When I'm dragged shopping I would gladly break something if it would get me home...).

To be honest, the example you gave would seem to make things worse. The last thing he needs is various brats in to play with the trainset etc when the parents have no intention of buying anything.

 

I have 2 young daughters and would never set foot in your friends shop even without my children on principal.

It seems such a shame that your friend is considering this just based on a minority!!

 

[GRDCredit]

I have 2 young daughters and would never set foot in your friends shop even without my children on principal.

It seems such a shame that your friend is considering this just based on a minority!!

Need to regain brownie points from earlier.

"Lucy - I don't believe you are old enough to have two young.... etc etc"



Geoff

 

Need to regain brownie points from earlier.

"Lucy - I don't believe you are old enough to have two young.... etc etc"



Geoff

mmmmmm yes, not very happy with you from earlier

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

I have 2 young daughters and would never set foot in your friends shop even without my children on principal.

It seems such a shame that your friend is considering this just based on a minority!!

And this is why your client needs to be 150% sure. Because this is an irreversable decision.

The negative PR might seem quite good now, but the negative side of it will be permanent, and the PR gained will be short term.

Will is still be such a good idea on a soggy Saturday in February? If it's a small town then the shop will be forever known as the one that banned children.

 

[Zeno]

Oh dear. I am not portraying a very sympathetic view of my client.

It is not a case of negative PR. He realises that this action will not be looked upon favourably by anyone and will damage his business however he also believes that the resulting decrease in breakages and theft will make it worthwhile. Other benefits may include being able to lower the staffing level.

Unfortunately, it really is a case of the behavior of the minority spoiling it for the rest.

I will gladly pass on any suggestions to an alternative.

 

[Officebird]

Surely this is a case of ageism? Will he ban fat people in case they knock things off shelves, or blind people, of those using a wheelchair?

To bar entry based on age alone must surely be illegal.

Legal issues aside I think its an awful idea! My child is very well behaved and If I visited your clients shop and he said we couldn't come in because he thought I might be a bad parent you can be sure I would be making a complaint to someone.

He will loose so much business he could end up closing.

In my local bins they have a high end ornament and crockery section. There is loads of space between the shelves and the really really really posh stuff is locked up in display cabinets.

There has to be another way than this.

 

Another thought - your friend must be bucking the trend in this economic climate if he can afford to alienate customers.

 

[Zeno]

My child is very well behaved and If I visited your clients shop and he said we couldn't come in because he thought I might be a bad parent you can be sure I would be making a complaint to someone.

I will pick on you as an example Sarah, however this is the issue - Your child is well behaved and even if s/he were not then you would deal with the situation yourself and presumably pay for any breakages. I would imagine you would be very embarassed if your kid ran amok in a shop and that you simply would not allow this to happen in the first place.

I will also concede that the vast majority of parents will be like this.

However, my client is experiencing a real problem, both financial & in terms of stress from the parents of children who simply do not care what damage their children do. This is the only way he can see to protect his business.

For reasons unknown, this problem has only increased to the current levels in the past 6 months or so. If anyone can propose a theory why it will be gratefully received.

To be honest, it is not the sort of place you would think to take children. The average customer is probably 50+ and the merchandise is probably not going to interest young parents.

 

[wizzard]

The only way solution I can see is to put all of the ornaments into display cabinets.

 

[IainW]

Can't he add 1 or 2 % to the price of all ornaments to cover the cost of the odd breakage?

All shops add a percentage to their products to cover theft, breakages and so on - can't he do that?

Iain

 

[Beachcomber]

To bar entry based on age alone must surely be illegal.

Pubs and casino's manage it.
AFAIK A shop owner or manager has a right to refuse to serve anyone they see fit.

The only way solution I can see is to put all of the ornaments into display cabinets.

I think that may be the answer - re-arrange the store so some items are in cabinets and others are above the reach of little ones - and more in line with the adults line-of-sight so it will make browsing easier for the parents.

Larger / heavier / cheaper items can be displayed lower down.

I really do think a ban would be very bad for business as it's not just the kids and parents you will alienate - it's the friends / uncles / aunties / grandparents etc, etc, it's those who hear of a friend of a freind who was asked to leave just because she had little timmy with her, it's the group of mum's at the school / nursery spreading the bad publicity and ill feeling you will generate - we all know nothing travels like bad news! The loss of trade could be far more than anticipated.

 

[Cloud]

Unfortunately this is not legal.

 

[wizzard]

Pubs and casino's manage it.

However you'll probably find that those establishments are exempt from the law.

 

[Zeno]

I think I may be missing something (Other than as a source of spare, compatable oragans and someone to look after my in my dottage I never seen the point of having children however it would certainly help give me an insight now).

The shop we are talking about is a wee, upmarket place where if I am being honest, is the sort of shop you would get the feeling that they are looking down their noses at you (a point for another thread, another day).

They sell nothing but expensive and highly breakable oranaments etc that generally only appeal to older ladies.

Why would you want to bring children in their in the first place?

 

[Beachcomber]

However you'll probably find that those establishments are exempt from the law.

A single smilie speaks a thousand words.

They sell nothing but expensive and highly breakable oranaments etc that generally only appeal to older ladies.
Why would you want to bring children in their in the first place?

Probably because older ladies tend to dote on their grandchildren and would be more than a little put out at being excluded from a shop just because they happen to have the little ones with them - or perceieve they would not be welcome should they ever have little ones with them.

 

[wizzard]

Unfortunately this is not legal.

Would you care to point out which part of the thread you are referring to?

 

[Zeno]

Thank you everyone for their helpful comments. I have spoken with my client and know that he is aware of the depth of feeling that this issue seems to generate is now keen to avoid it if at all possible.

The underlying problem still remains though. How can the shop deal with misbehaving children if the parents refuse to do anything about it? (By refuse I mean angrily tell the staff to mind their own business usually in swear words accompanied by threats).

 

[SillyJokes]

Can your client put an exact weekly figure on theft and breakages please? I bet they can't.

I suspect your client is over stating the problem to be honest.

I can't believe this happens all the time and is just annoying when it does.

Perhaps they are a new business and haven't yet learnt that the general public are quite a mixed bunch and not all of them are like their friends. Perhaps they don't have kids (in fact I'd put money on it) and this is why they can't handle the fact that others do.

Is it possible that your client is just uptight? I mean, how do other similar shops go on? They have not banned kids have they?

 

[Zeno]

Can your client put an exact weekly figure on theft and breakages please? I bet they can't.

I suspect your client is over stating the problem to be honest.

I can't believe this happens all the time and is just annoying when it does.

Perhaps they are a new business and haven't yet learnt that the general public are quite a mixed bunch and not all of them are like their friends. Perhaps they don't have kids (in fact I'd put money on it) and this is why they can't handle the fact that others do.

Is it possible that your client is just uptight? I mean, how do other similar shops go on? They have not banned kids have they?

Client has been doing this for around 20 years with grown up children (no grandchildren however). As to uptight, I would have to admit that I think he is - a bit Hyacinth Bucket.

it may not be a unique problem however space is tight in the shop which may cause more of a problem than in other places.

 

[Beachcomber]

How can the shop deal with misbehaving children if the parents refuse to do anything about it? (By refuse I mean angrily tell the staff to mind their own business usually in swear words accompanied by threats).

Simple - call the police and report them for criminal damage / abusive & threatening behaviour. Don't take any carp.

 

[Zeno]

Simple - call the police and report them for criminal damage / abusive & threatening behaviour. Don't take any carp.

1. By the time they show up the customer will be long gone.
2. The last time the police were involved they spent more time questioning the staff
3. What will they do anyway?

 

[googol]

The underlying problem still remains though. How can the shop deal with misbehaving children if the parents refuse to do anything about it? (By refuse I mean angrily tell the staff to mind their own business usually in swear words accompanied by threats).

Ask them to leave, and ban them from the shop. If they refuse to leave they can be forcibly removed (with reasonable force, but slightly risky) or the police can be called (most people will leave if they know the police have been called anyway).
If stuff is broken due to the parent's recklessness then it could be argued that it's criminal damage, and the police could be called (again, the mentioning of police could persuade them to pay up) and if necessary they could be detained until the police arrive (which could be somewhat risky again in terms of police etc).

Whilst not the same environment, I worked in security at Tesco last year and we would ask people who were abusive to leave, and then ban them if necessary (usually followed up with a letter delivered by the police).
People were also detained for shoplifting and criminal damage (usually damaging security tags) until the police arrived.
However most breakages were seen as "one of those things" and even if a customer broke a product after paying for it on the way to their car, a replacement would be offered free of charge.

One thing I did find was that whilst dealing with the police, if you were calm and seemed reasonable, they took your side more often, especially if you were the one to phone them and outlined everything step-by-step.
This was even more so if the other party was still angry and came across as irrational.

 

[Trainer Bubble]

I am of the belief that a person should always first looking at their own behaviour.

If the people talking to the parents or their children is getting a negative response, they should consider how they are doing it. Is there any way they can adjust their own communication style to elicit an alternative response?

If breakages and 'incidents' are rising it could well be that word is getting around about their attitude to their customers and people are reacting in kind. Remember, everyone's behaviour seems perfectly reasonable to them at the time.

 

[wizzard]

I am of the belief that a person should always first looking at their own behaviour.

If the people talking to the parents or their children is getting a negative response, they should consider how they are doing it. Is there any way they can adjust their own communication style to elicit an alternative response?

If breakages and 'incidents' are rising it could well be that word is getting around about their attitude to their customers and people are reacting in kind. Remember, everyone's behaviour seems perfectly reasonable to them at the time.

If I owned a shop and saw someone breaking my stock, I would react negatively, it's my livelyhood that you're wrecking.

I'm sorry but I don't own a crystal ball to predict someones behaviour when they walk into a shop.

It is common sense that before you walk into a shop which has fragile items on display, you warn the children not to touch anything.

Thus heading off any such scenario.

 

[Trainer Bubble]

If you read my post I am not asking anyone to use a crystal ball to predict the customers behaviour...In fact, just the opposite.

My point is that perhaps the way in which they are talking to the customer is provoking the negative response. Is there a better way to word things?

Of course it is the customer that is at fault here, but unfortunately there is little you can do to alter their behaviour, which is why I make my suggestion. Common sense does not always apply where people are concerned.

 

[Mattonella Tile Studio]

I am of the belief that a person should always first looking at their own behaviour.

If the people talking to the parents or their children is getting a negative response, they should consider how they are doing it. Is there any way they can adjust their own communication style to elicit an alternative response?

If breakages and 'incidents' are rising it could well be that word is getting around about their attitude to their customers and people are reacting in kind. Remember, everyone's behaviour seems perfectly reasonable to them at the time.

Customers have different approaches too though remember.

As an example I've had 2 different customers borrow display materials as samples, and then broke them. The first one came in really apologetic, explained he'd simply dropped it as an accident. These things happen.

The second one when he came back was talking, and then just slipped into conversation 'oh that stone I took, it broke'. Didn't seem bothered. And for the record stone doesn't just break. Needless to say I was less impressed with this, even though we had same outcome as customer number 1.

 

[Trainer Bubble]

Customers have different approaches too though remember.

As an example I've had 2 different customers borrow display materials as samples, and then broke them. The first one came in really apologetic, explained he'd simply dropped it as an accident. These things happen.

The second one when he came back was talking, and then just slipped into conversation 'oh that stone I took, it broke'. Didn't seem bothered. And for the record stone doesn't just break. Needless to say I was less impressed with this, even though we had same outcome as customer number 1.

I agree entirely. The point is that the only attitude that you can alter in each scenario is your own.

 

[yorkshirejames]

I can see this from both sides. First of all, the proposal doesn't contravene any laws.

Now if I was the shopowner, if someone broke by vase I would ask them to pay for it (and expect them to).

If I was the customer, I would point out various ways why I shouldn't - aisle too narrow, vases too near little fingers, etc etc.

I think glass cases is the best answer to be honest. Or if this was me, I would sell the shop, get a quality camera, use my garage and deal purely online/advertise in Saga magazine.

 

[Geoff T]

I can see this from both sides.

me too!

Legally I agree, as a business owner you have the right to refuse entry into you're place of business (law re discrimination notwithstanding), but as "minors" have limited legal rights, if you're friend is serious about this, then they have the right to do so...some pubs have been doing it for decades...

saying that, when the bad PR does the rounds, likely outlook would be they don't have to worry as they'd have no business, so "ankle biter-friendly" options may be the best way forward (see previous)!

Br
Geoff

 

[beadell]

May I suggest a small semi automatic behind the counter - (placed on single shot as the owner could end up doing more damage himself)

I have to admit I am allergic to children and if I had my way would ban each and everyone one of them from the town, let alone my shop and dont even get me started on pushchairs....

But realistically it is not an option is it.....I take the approach that if a said kid is running riot in my shop or even looking at me the wrong way I will firmly (but with a nice friendly smile on my face, not to smiley though, I wanna scare em) tell them to stop.

A good loud "hey"...I learnt that from Ceaser Milan (dog trainer) normally suffices. Normally gets the desired response from the parent as well.

Reading between the lines it does sound as if the owner may not be handling as well as he/she could