How will Trump tariffs affect us then?

Don't you just love the volatility yes the pull back last night was very nice saw some equities up over 10% and again yes Asian markets saw some relief which carried through to this mornings UK open. Bit of a sell off for some as profits taken in early trading but focus should be on US CPI data, YOY and core inflation figures always (normally) seen as high risk trigger points but anyones guess this week. YOY current 2.8% expected 2.6% core inflation 3.1% expected 3%

Will all kick off again at 13.30 GMT - off for some more coffee now 😁

Markets are strange. It was widely predicted that this back-pedal would happen, yet the markets still knee-jerk.

My personal rule (and to anyone who isn't playing the market) is to ignore day-to-day activity and to go with a weekly - or even monthly overview.
 
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fisicx

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According to Trump and his sycophants this was all part of the plan. They never intended to stick with those tariffs. They were only there to force countries to negotiate.
 

FreddyG

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According to Trump and his sycophants this was all part of the plan. They never intended to stick with those tariffs. They were only there to force countries to negotiate.
Nah! I think he is having a Liz Truss moment! China is now selling its US treasuries, so the 10-yr bond market is heading towards 5% to attract buyers! That will make the US government debt problem far worse! That's very similar to what the markets did to the lettuce!

He cannot impose a 120% tariff on Chinese goods because Midwest SMEs and even larger fabs have to use Chinese components.

Take the small-scale sawmill market. The two market leaders are Woodmizer and Woodland Mills -

Woodmizer: All-American, salt-of-the-earth sawmills. But bearings, wheels, and electric motors (and countless other bits and pieces) all from China. So what happens when tariffs make those parts double in price or impossible to get? The answer: No sawmills. No jobs. No customers. No rural independence.

Woodland Mills (Canada): Entire product line made in China, sold mainly to American homesteaders. Tariffs mean the price of a small sawmill — once $4,000 or $5,000 — jumps by thousands overnight. The “back to the land” dream becomes unaffordable. Guess who gets hit hardest? Small-town builders, rural communities, DIY folks — Trump’s own base!

Fabs and electronics
: Even fabs that make their own boards don’t smelt their own copper, bake their own PCBs, or machine every bracket. The supply chain for a single $300 controller box can include a dozen countries. Break one link, and it’s game over.

Tariffs at this level don’t encourage "reshoring" — they just crush small to medium manufacturers who don’t have the margins or scale to relocate supply chains overnight. The big guys can (maybe) but Mom-and-Pop engineering outfits across the Midwest? Not a chance.

And it’s not just a temporary disruption — it becomes structural. It hollows out the domestic manufacturing base by forcing shutdowns, killing competitiveness, and raising costs for consumers.

Then we come to electronic components - ouch! (Hint - try building a car, or indeed anything, without them!)

While the U.S. still has several high-quality manufacturers of electronic components—Vishay, Bourns, AVX, and others—they do not have the production volume to fully replace the flood of cheap, high-volume parts that come in from China, Taiwan, South Korea, and other parts of Asia.

Most of these U.S. firms focus on specialty components for aerospace, defense, and medical applications, i.e. high-reliability and high-spec parts for niche markets. They are not built for mass-scale consumer electronics production at the volume and cost levels needed to replace Asian imports.

China has built entire cities and regional supply chains that revolve around component manufacturing (e.g. Shenzhen). These hubs produce billions of units per day of resistors, capacitors, inductors, transistors, etc., they benefit from economies of scale and hyper-competitive pricing and are deeply integrated with assembly and testing facilities

You can't just "turn on" that kind of infrastructure in North America overnight. It would take years and billions in investment to even come close.

A US fab will not be able to order elsewhere right now - all they're getting to hear is "Get to the back of the queue!"
 
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WaveJumper

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    Markets are strange. It was widely predicted that this back-pedal would happen, yet the markets still knee-jerk.

    My personal rule (and to anyone who isn't playing the market) is to ignore day-to-day activity and to go with a weekly - or even monthly overview.
    Yep if your in your in - if you're out stay out, we traders as always are buying the dips and riding the waves we love volatility.

    Update;
    US core inflation 2.8% market forecast was 3% previous 3.1%
    US inflation YoY 2.4% market forecast was 2.6% previous 2.8%

    On a slightly different note anyone watch the Senate hearing regarding Facebook the other day it's a wonder someone is not facing treason charges i wonder if Mark Zuckerberg is having some sleepless nights.
     
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    gpietersz

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    According to Trump and his sycophants this was all part of the plan.
    I believe them on that. If you read things like A User’s Guide to Restructuring the Global Trading System by Stephen Miran the tariffs were always intended to be a negotiating tactic.

    The way they are calculated is also more consistent with setting them high where they have the greatest impact combined with China being the major threat in a new cold war, than they are with the idea they reflect imbalances - otherwise multiplying a factor of 4 by one of 0.25 is a bit of a coincidence!
     

    fisicx

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    Except of course Trump has now backed down. He can spin it anyway he likes but he has caved in under pressure from the likes of Apple. China doesn’t have to do anything, US corporations will do it all for them. When supplies dry up and factories close Trump will back down again.
     

    gpietersz

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    Markets are strange. It was widely predicted that this back-pedal would happen, yet the markets still knee-jerk.
    Yes, and governments are not doing much better, Nor the media.

    It was predictable the tariffs would happen, it they are unlikely to be this high long term. No one seems to be thinking this through in their reactions.

    One exception to the media reaction was Deutsche Welle have got quite a good video (Its on Youtube in English) on theories about the thinking behind it. That is it though!
     
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    gpietersz

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    Except of course Trump has now backed down. He can spin it anyway he likes but he has caved in under pressure from the likes of Apple. China doesn’t have to do anything, US corporations will do it all for them. When supplies dry up and factories close Trump will back down again.
    That is taking things too much at face value. He has shown a willingness to impose high tariffs. he has provided some exceptions, and paused tariffs on most countries.

    That does not mean its all over.
     

    Newchodge

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    Except of course Trump has now backed down. He can spin it anyway he likes but he has caved in under pressure from the likes of Apple. China doesn’t have to do anything, US corporations will do it all for them. When supplies dry up and factories close Trump will back down again.
    I am fascinated to know what Trump will do if it is true that China has suspended exports of certain rare earth minerals and magnets that are crucial for the world's car, semiconductor and aerospace industries.

    Any supplier can choose whether to supply a customer. Game, set and match to China?
     

    fisicx

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    he has provided some exceptions, and paused tariffs on most countries
    Only because someone pushed him into doing so. If he hadn’t there would have been even bigger financial losses.

    His foolish actions have come back to bite him. Just look at how his approval ratings have dropped.
     

    gpietersz

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    Only because someone pushed him into doing so. If he hadn’t there would have been even bigger financial losses.

    His foolish actions have come back to bite him. Just look at how his approval ratings have dropped.
    Again, I suggest reading up on what he and his advisors said before they imposed tariffs). Start with the Stephen Marin paper I linked to above.

    The media coverage is terrible. This is the one exception I referred to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVB2o1rNhPg

    Also read up of Scott Bessent's groupings of countries. They are planning for a new cold war with China. We currently have a system that was set up by people who believed in the "end of history" theories of the 90s. At the very least you have to give Trump and his lot credit for facing the fact that that was BS.

    You seem to be missing my point. It was never the plan to keep the tariffs this high. The plan was to put pressure on other countries as a negotiating tactic. Judging my market and government reactions that has worked.
     
    Only because someone pushed him into doing so. If he hadn’t there would have been even bigger financial losses.

    His foolish actions have come back to bite him. Just look at how his approval ratings have dropped.
    I don't believe he's that stupid (terms & conditions apply) - there is undoubtedly a long game and the start of a plan.

    However, I do believe he has severely misjudged the reactions

    The bond market - presumably his advisors advised & he ignored.

    China - never a close relationship, but they will play far smarter and harder than Trump.

    Canada - decimated decades of friendly trading, to the point there is now an unofficial 'boycott' of all things American, including McDonalds. When kids avoid McDonalds, you know there is a problem.
     
    Also read up of Scott Bessent's groupings of countries. They are planning for a new cold war with China.
    The guy who claims to have been approached by 75 countries to negotiate deals? Who are the 75 countries, very few seem to have identified themselves.

    They are planning for a new cold war with China.
    Nope, they are planning on weaning business off of relying on China at all and want all trade to be within the Americas (the continents, not the country)

    America has been the world police, and that is expensive and unnecessary if they don't trade with Asia/Europe to a significant extent. It has also made America a target for terrorists, which will end when America is no longer involved in the Middle East and Africa.
     

    Newchodge

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    It has a China part and a UK part. Anyway, what are you saying "really" to?
    I said
    Any supplier can choose whether to supply a customer. Game, set and match to China?
    To which you replied
    In China, yes, but not in the UK
    And I said
    You appear to be confused by saying
    Which part?
    If you really cannot follow my question of 'really?', there is no point in you replying.
     

    gpietersz

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    I think focusing on tariffs is a mistake.

    The underlying change is that Trump is accelerating (it would have happened anyway) the new cold war. Again we have a world dominated by superpower rivalry. This time it is the US and China. Russia and China are somewhat allied, but with places swapped (China is the superpower, Russia a regional power, this time). America's Asian allies are in the position their European NATO allies were in last time as key allies facing the enemy, whereas Europe is in the position East and South East Asia was of being a secondary arena.

    We are going to have a lot of disruption of global supply chains, flow of capital. Trade policy and currency polices will change a lot.
     

    FreddyG

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    I think focusing on tariffs is a mistake.
    That bit is correct (IMO) - but -

    The underlying change is that Trump is accelerating (it would have happened anyway) the new cold war.
    There I must disagree.

    But not because is is not accelerating a New Cold War, he is! But because that is not the main issue we must worry about.

    The on-again, off-again, half-on, half-off. Now full-on, now half-on - or is it off? No! It's on! Or is it off? This madness is merely the trigger or the catalyst for the main event!

    I realised over the weekend what is happening when I looked at the gold prices and the charts going back a few weeks. If you use the 'Bullion by Post' charts here https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/gold-price/month/ounces/USD/ you will see that gold closed last week's trading at a new all-time high of $3,240.

    But if you then switch to Euros, you see that it is not at an all-time high.

    So yes, there is a flight to the safety of gold, but away from the dollar.


    A deeper dive into who is selling what shows that the major institutions, inc. US banks and financial houses are selling their T-bills and buying gold.

    Logic would tell one that they should be selling gold at these high prices and buying 10yr T-Bills that pay nearly 5%. But they are not! The reverse is happening. They are selling T-Bills and buying gold.

    At the same time, US share prices are steadily falling. So far, we seem to have had a 15% correction, but with Captain Bonkers at the helm, there will be much more to come.

    The money markets have lost confidence in the US government and, most importantly, they have lost confidence in the US dollar!

    That all means that the great reset has begun. Trump, through his bluster and blundering, has triggered the markets into selling the dollar, selling US equities and heralding the end of the dollar as the world's reserve currency.

    This may take a few years to fully work itself out - but this is where it starts! Ray Dalio warned of this. Jeremy Grantham warned of this. Well, here she is!

    And this is where the US can no longer live by printing money and exporting its inflation to the rest of the world (i.e. Brent Johnson's Dollar Milkshake theory).

    This is the beginning of the bond market taking the keys to the printing presses away.

    Immediate effects - the US housing and commercial properties markets will have to fall as banks are already becoming reluctant to lend. This will lead to contagion, starting with the UK. The beginning of a global recession - one that will be bigger than the 2008 GFC.

    The dollar will have to be inflated to absurdity over the next few years to inflate away that giant $130 trillion government debt (according to the Congressional Budget Office).

    This is where the US gets to be just another ordinary country and no longer the only superpower.
     

    gpietersz

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    triggered the markets into selling the dollar
    One of their aims is to make the dollar more competitive, so that sounds like a success.
    Which leaves the UK/Euro zone where? US is the biggest export partner, who's buying our stuff?
    Not in a great place unless we do a deal with them. This is the leverage that tariffs provide. On the other hand they want us to take their side against China which is not a difficult sell - China is a threat to us too

    Who buys out stuff is quite complex because a lot of stuff is sold on: we export more to the Netherlands than to France but I suspect much more of it is re-exported. https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/uk-trade-in-numbers/uk-trade-in-numbers-web-version

    There are some other interesting things. Our biggest goods export and our biggest goods import is cars

    We also have a huge security problem because we depend on the US. A lot of "European" military equipment uses components covered by ITAR so we need US permission to sell them For example, some variants of Saab Grippen fighters use GE engines, other use American radar.
     

    FreddyG

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    Which leaves the UK/Euro zone where? US is the biggest export partner, who's buying our stuff?
    A very good question!

    Right now, if you are a Swedish or German maker of chainsaws, you already have factories in the US. You can build a Husqvarna or Stihl saw a hellova lot cheaper there than in Germany or Sweden! Larger US manufacturers already have EU and Chinese factories.

    Also, I do not foresee a long and happy life for Captain Bonkers' tariffs. Imagine you are a US-based SME making something. I earlier used the sawmill maker Woodmizer as an example - it has c.a. 1,000 employees in Indiana and a further 400 in Poland. The motors, gears and parts all come from China. No parts - no Woodmizer! Simples!

    Indiana is full of engineering companies like that. And they rely on parts from all over Planet Earth. Franklin Electric in Fort Wayne, Indiana makes submersible electric motors that are often sold as a complete pump assembly under the Grundfos brand for the larger systems for water, sewage, oil, stuff like that. They require parts from all over the planet and they also have plants in every continent on Earth and many of those plants in places like the Czech Republic, China, Mexico, South Africa make motors for the US market and the US fabs exports worldwide.

    Captain Bonkers hadn't thought this whole tariffs thing through when he announced it on Obliteration Day! The only country he is damaging is the United States of America - aka, Retardistan.
     
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    FreddyG

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    One of their aims is to make the dollar more competitive, so that sounds like a success.
    Not if you want to remain the issuer of the world's reserve currency.

    Without that ability to just print the world's reserve currency, the US ceases to be able to export their inflation and live off everybody else's goods and labour.

    Captain Bonkers really does not understand any of this stuff!

    Putin, on the other hand, has a PhD in Economics. Imagine that conversation between those two! It must have been somewhere between hilarious and painful!
     

    gpietersz

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    Not if you want to remain the issuer of the world's reserve currency.
    Trump (and his advisors) think otherwise. Have a look at the Stephen Miran paper I linked to earlier.

    They may also think a more competitive currency is worth it.

    The other question is what can credibly replace the dollar? What else can be used to denominate international trade? To replace the dollar we need something else that people are happy to use all along lengthy global supply chains.
    Putin, on the other hand, has a PhD in Economics.

    Miran has a PhD in economics too.
     

    Newchodge

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    The other question is what can credibly replace the dollar? What else can be used to denominate international trade? To replace the dollar we need something else that people are happy to use all along lengthy global supply chains.
    How about Bancor, as suggested by JM Keanes? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bancor
     

    gpietersz

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    How about Bancor, as suggested by JM Keanes? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bancor
    its a great idea, but it will never happen because the countries that have ambitions for their countries having that role will always oppose it.

    It was the UK proposal at Bretton Woods, but the UK would never have supported the idea when the pound was the world's reserve currency. The Wikipedia article says China supported it at the time, but they would be unlikely to do so now.
     

    FreddyG

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    The other question is what can credibly replace the dollar? What else can be used to denominate international trade? To replace the dollar we need something else that people are happy to use all along lengthy global supply chains.

    The replacement is happening already. See above! Central banks everywhere (with the notable exceptions of the Fed and the BoE!) are all-in on this one.

    How about Bancor, as suggested by JM Keanes? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bancor

    Along with Keanes' other mistaken ideas, which served only to make the rich even richer and impoverish the majority, we have gone back to classical economics and Friedman's and Hazlitt's views - there is no such thing as a free lunch. (Google Kuznet's famous inverted U-curve of inequality!)

    The problem with any discussion about tariffs and/or inequality - or indeed anything to do with Economics - is that those discussing the subject are seldom (if ever) economists! The few we do get to see are just the failures that fall into journalism or the lap of cosy academia. These are the professorial egg-heads with PhDs who couldn't trade their way out of a paper bag!

    So, who are we supposed to listen to? Tip - The people who matter are sitting in trading floors, hedge funds, research shops, and dark offices full of terminals and coffee. The real economists. The ones who actually bet money on their analysis. The ones who shorted mortgage-backed securities and CDOs in 2006 or dumped dot-com stocks in 1999. The ones who get fired when they're wrong and rich when they're right.

    That means that if you are into commodities, listen to people like Rick Rule and Eric Sprott. For general money markets, listen to Jeremy Grantham and Ray Dalio and for long-term investing, listen carefully to the guarded words of Warren Buffett. And above all, look at what these people actually own and what they're buying and selling.

    For economic advice, never listen to crooks, people with no skin in the game and poor people.
     

    gpietersz

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    So, who are we supposed to listen to? Tip - The people who matter are sitting in trading floors, hedge funds, research shops, and dark offices full of terminals and coffee. The real economists. The ones who actually bet money on their analysis. The ones who shorted mortgage-backed securities and CDOs in 2006 or dumped dot-com stocks in 1999. The ones who get fired when they're wrong and rich when they're right.
    Those are the sort of people devising Trump's policies:


     

    FreddyG

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    The only problem with Buffett's Import Certificates is that they add yet another layer of bureaucracy to an already over-bureaucratic state. Or as one colourful southern-state congressman put it "Getting bureaucrats off the government payroll is like shooing flies off of a shi1-waggon!"

    A property developer in the US told me that 25% of the cost of a one-family house in the US is the cost of permits, planning applications, utility applications, rubbish like that! And if it is a multi-family building, make that 40%.

    As for those two 'economists' - purely cosmetic posts with trading houses. Every major trading house puts politically linked people on its payroll.
     

    gpietersz

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    A property developer in the US told me that 25% of the cost of a one-family house in the US is the cost of permits, planning applications, utility applications, rubbish like that! And if it is a multi-family building, make that 40%.
    I can well believe it. We have similar problems here. The permissions for HS2 cost more than the Indian lunar probe project did.
     
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    2JP

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    On multiple occasions now, Trump is saying that the US is taking $2billion per day because of these tariffs. More BS. We have had 4 airfreight packages imported into US since 5 April. No demands for any tariff on any of them. They haven't implemented it yet! Not surprising when you consider the practical aspects, rather than hot air from someone almost completely out of touch with reality. Has anybody been asked to pay the tariff yet? (By the way, I think the $2b is calculated from trade BEFORE the tariffs were announced, so complete fiction as goods transit will have dropped off a cliff, for now.)
     
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