Is goal setting overrated?

[JCBrown]

We may have heard of the saying that "failing to plan is planning to fail".

And for any organisation it can be argued that goal setting is essential as it ensures that there is progression and there's always something to work towards.

1. But how do you enforce those goals and plans so that they are not just words on paper?

2. How has goal-setting helped or hindered your business?

3. What tools do you use to track your progress?

 

[fisicx]

1. They are just words on paper.

2. Usually hindered (because of incompetent management)

3. Doesn’t matter, nobody cares.

The problem with goal setting is it’s not my goals. It something manglement want.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

It's important because you need to know what you're business needs to do day by day ,week by week ,month by month.
You need goals and targets to achieve what is required from the business and to simply keep your business trading .

Without targets your business is out of control

 

[fisicx]

@JEREMY HAWKE - that’s just business management. Goal settings s whole different animal with targets and KPIs and assessment and whatever. I’ve been involved in this with a number of organisations and it never achieved anything useful.

I was talking to someone at the weekend who worked for a comany that turns over just under £1M/year. The board has set a target of £50M turnover in 5 years. That's their goal. No management plan, just that one goal.

 

[fisicx]

@JCBrown - what are you defining as an organisation? Two blokes mending washing machines in their garage?

 

[Mark T Jones]

At a personal level I take a broad view of goals, and create a clear mental vision of what I want to achieve that year - which may or may not involve money, then work out what I need to do to get there.

At a corporate level, managing teams it's rather harder to apply that MO, so some kind of targets and goals are essential. Sadly this seems then to become more important than the end game.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Simply put
It takes a villa in the med for somebody to drive the goals of an organisation

 

[fisicx]

Simply put
It takes a villa in the med for somebody to drive the goals of an organisation

Exactly. That's their goal not yours. If you are at the bottom of the food chain you don't give two hoots about the goals of the MD.

 

[Ozzy]

If you don’t have a goal how do you know whether you’re heading in the right direction.
It’s basically the same as removing the goal posts from a game of football. The players will eventually get bored of kicking the ball around with no objective to aim for. It may be set by management but the players on the field need to know what the objective of the game is.

 

[DavidWH]

Goals are perfectly fine, if the goals right.

It's fine setting a target for turnover, and chase every job, discount heavily to get a sale towards the target... they realise you actually made bugger all.

If you're not getting the sales, because you're slow to quote, then a goal to speed up quotations will be more beneficial than chasing numbers on paper.

 

[fisicx]

If you don’t have a goal how do you know whether you’re heading in the right direction.

Having a direction is fine (eg: to continue to provide X service) but a goal not always so. Telling staff you want to double profits next year without an increase in resources or providing an incentive to staff (eg profit share) is just pointless. And that's what happens to most goals. The people actually doing the work don't care.

 

[tony84]

At the beginning of the year I set myself 2 targets:
1) How much I need to pay the bills.
2) How much I would like to earn.

I used to get quite stressed about income and it pushed my blood pressure high. So hitting (1) allows me to relax a little.

On a busy day I write a list of jobs to do. I suppose both of those are technically goals, one for the day/week and the other for the year. But I dont focus on goals all day/week/year.

 

[fisicx]

If an organisation is going to set goals they need to work for everybody. This means each person needs to have very specific measurable goals. This means you need a process driven organisation - where every step of every operation is fully documented. People then follow process to achieve their individual goals. If they don't you can assess at which point of the process they failed and set up a PPP to get them back on target. There is a huge burden on the organization to manage all of this.

Read up on goal setting theory. It's a very complex area of business and need a lot of resource to make it work.

 

[Ozzy]

Telling staff you want to double profits next year without an increase in resources or providing an incentive to staff (eg profit share) is just pointless.

In my opinion that isn’t a proper goal.
My goals are not financial, they are stretched KPI’s.
For example grow user engagement on UKBF from X to Y, and grow newsletter readers from A to B. As the business owner is my job to tie those to commercial performance, but for the team those are achievable. I then, as everyone here can hopefully see, invest in the required recruitment and tools to help the team achieve the goals I set.

If you use them correctly I believe a business, whether one person on their own or a business of hundreds of people, needs to set goals to bring everyone together. People also like to know what is expected of them, how do they know they are doing their job right.

 

[JCBrown]

@JCBrown - what are you defining as an organisation? Two blokes mending washing machines in their garage?

Maybe 3 blokes!

But it could even be a sole trader as well who runs their own business

Is it not a no-brainer to give your self something to work towards?

 

[Alan]

And for any organisation it can be argued that goal setting is essential

I think I agree with @fisicx and I think my interpretation is that goals are not essential or even desirable for an 'organisation'. I believe goals are best thought of as personal development goals. Despite the legal context of some organisations they are not persons.

Organisations do need a direction, but that is normally a strategic objective, e.g. increase market share, obtain 20% ROI or whatever. Normally driven by the owners / share holders.

Then the skill of management is to have a system in place that enables all the people involved in an a organisation to have their personal goals that collectively add up to aid the organisations strategic aims

 

[fisicx]

Totally agree with you @Ozzy. The problem is many businesses don’t know how to get goals let alone put the resources in pace to then manage those goals.

For goals to work the people in the organisation have to be fully committed and that’s not easy.

An Amazon driver or call centre operative doesn’t care about the business. Their only incentive is earning money.

I was a contractor for a large public organisation and every year they had this huge employee survey. And every year the same complaints were raised. And every year nothing changed. I could see the millions being wasted but nobody cared. But at least everyone had goals so it was all good.

 

[fisicx]

Maybe 3 blokes!

But it could even be a sole trader as well who runs their own business

Is it not a no-brainer to give your self something to work towards?

Goal setting is a business process with a huge amount of theory behind it. It's complicated and very time consuming.

My goal is to keep doing what I already do. I don't need to track my progress and it neither hinders or helps.

Read some of the scholarly articles on goal setting and you will start to see how difficult it is it to implement. This is just a taste:

Goal setting - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Mark T Jones]

Reading this thread, I'd conclude that misunderstood would be more apt than overrated

 

[Ozzy]

Reading this thread, I'd conclude that misunderstood would be more apt than overrated

As soon as I read this comment and reading this thread back, you’ve hit the nail on the head.
I’d also add to it with @fisicx example given, goals can also be badly implemented. Perhaps assumed by dare I say some bad management that whack in some goals and you solve your management problems. Nope, goals need to mean something to those working towards them.

 

[The Byre]

Goal setting is just another pointless business fad. You can set all the goals you like - life tends to decide otherwise! My goals for 2021 were blown out of the water by C19.

 

[fisicx]

Goal setting is just another pointless business fad. You can set all the goals you like - life tends to decide otherwise! My goals for 2021 were blown out of the water by C19.

Or as Helmuth von Moltke said:

Kein Operationsplan reicht mit einiger Sicherheit über das erste Zusammentreffen mit der feindlichen Hauptmacht hinaus.

And for the rest of us:

No plan of operations extends with any certainty beyond the first encounter with the main enemy forces.

Planning is essential the plan not so much. If you want to set some goals be prepared to move them.

 

[cjd]

We used to spend at least half of the year planning in BT. We had monthly, quarterly, annual and 5 year plans. I'm not sure how useful they were but they sure kept thousands of us occupied.

I once presented a 5 year plan to a product manager. When I tried to tell him about year 2 he just smiled and said "no-one's every in the second year of a 5 year plan, just tell me about my budget year."

You do need a plan, but it shouldn't be obsessed over.

 

[MBE2017]

I think it can be useful, but the people who it concerns need to see that it is achievable to buy into the vision.

I have never personally set turnover goals, only profit targets. Most importantly if the target or goal rely on your workforce, you need the what’s in it for them spelled out clearly.

Hard to quantify in real life, it’s like finding why one manager can motivate staff when 99 cannot, some people have that ability to communicate and carry the argument, most do not.

 

[Mr D]

I set some goals a number of years ago.
So far have achieved one 9 years ago and will achieve a second one in around 4 years time.
I often look at them to make sure I am heading in the right direction.

Works for me.

 

[Fagin2021]

People sometimes confuse goals with targets. Targets are great. They're easily measured - as is progress towards them. Goals, as @fisicx says, are much more nebulous - and often irrelevant to the workforce, like the company 'mission statement' or the 'founders vision'.
Goals are what CEOs and Senior Civil Servants set, so they can award themselves bonuses for achieving them.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Totally agree with you @Ozzy. The problem is many businesses don’t know how to get goals let alone put the resources in pace to then manage those goals.

I'm assuming there's a typo above 'set' not 'get' as that's what I'm using to give my ten penneth worth.

I've only ever worked for people who don't know how to set goals

Back in my newspaper advertising days the boss, who had been elevated from goods inward to Sales Director as he'd been there the longest, set monthly targets that were unachievable and only served to erase any ambition the sales team had. January's target, a traditionally poor month for advertising in our sector was the same for February, March and April. I tore it up, halved the January one, doubled March and tripled Aprils. I took personal responsibility away from each of the Rep's and created a group target that was triggered every time we reached the next level, be that a week into March or two weeks before the end of April. The sales team, instead of ignoring long term quotes and requests for media packs as they had a monthly target to achieve , were able to work on campaigns several months ahead as another team member was selling 'now', and/or the next target level had already been met.

Anyway, back on topic. I don't set goals, don't chase targets and couldn't tell you where the next order will come from as we head towards Christmas closure. All I know is it WILL come so there's no point worrying about it. My alternative approach, which isn't about the blind pursuit of money, isn't for everybody, and i'd doubtless be more wealthy had I known or cared what day it was/is...

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Exactly. That's their goal not yours. If you are at the bottom of the food chain you don't give two hoots about the goals of the MD.

One strongly disagrees!
If that person at the top does not get his or her personal goals from the profits of the company there may not be a company.
For the person at the bottom to achieve set goals there has to be an incentive and that's why many companies fail at goal setting in this country.
This is the reason that many of you have a poor veiw on this subject because there is rarely an incentive for all involved

 

[Chris Ashdown]

The Goal is not the singular item, but part of the whole planning exercise on how you take the company forward

Naturally being a plan its subject to change but again the variance can be built into the plan be it positive or negative

Cashflow projections are part of the plan which shows if you can expand or expansion is limited by cash

Naturally it depends a lot on the person and the size of the organisation, someone working on their own may survive with no or little forward thinking, larger organisation's may have very complex goals from survival to expansion

 

[fisicx]

This is the reason that many of you have a poor veiw on this subject because there is rarely an incentive for all involved

And that is the whole problem. Goal setting is a business wide activity with lots of engagement top to bottom with clear targets, incentives and penalties. It's got nothing to with the personal goals of the person at the top. It's very difficult to get right and can take 2-3 years before everything is in place.

I know a chap who works for a supermarket. Everyone knows the company goals, and there is lots of training and whatever. His personal goals are to complete X activities each shift. He rarely bothers to get close. And the reason is there is no monitoring and zero assessment. It makes the whole goal setting thing a waste of time.

 

[Financial-Modeller]

It depends on perspective.

If agreed goals are understandable and achievable with clear agreement on what happens when they are achieved and what happens when they are not, they can be very useful.

Poor management of inexplicable goals with no carrot or stick leads to apathy and/or resentment.

 

[Mr D]

I'm assuming there's a typo above 'set' not 'get' as that's what I'm using to give my ten penneth worth.

I've only ever worked for people who don't know how to set goals

Back in my newspaper advertising days the boss, who had been elevated from goods inward to Sales Director as he'd been there the longest, set monthly targets that were unachievable and only served to erase any ambition the sales team had. January's target, a traditionally poor month for advertising in our sector was the same for February, March and April. I tore it up, halved the January one, doubled March and tripled Aprils. I took personal responsibility away from each of the Rep's and created a group target that was triggered every time we reached the next level, be that a week into March or two weeks before the end of April. The sales team, instead of ignoring long term quotes and requests for media packs as they had a monthly target to achieve , were able to work on campaigns several months ahead as another team member was selling 'now', and/or the next target level had already been met.

Anyway, back on topic. I don't set goals, don't chase targets and couldn't tell you where the next order will come from as we head towards Christmas closure. All I know is it WILL come so there's no point worrying about it. My alternative approach, which isn't about the blind pursuit of money, isn't for everybody, and i'd doubtless be more wealthy had I known or cared what day it was/is...

Had a manager like that once.
She set targets based on what the company needed. Not on what was achieveable (I was part time) nor on what was realistic.
In no way were they SMART. She persuaded the board to her vision of targets.

I just told her no and walked off. She insisted the targets would be used because they were agreed by the board. I told her the board could meet the targets them (they could not).
Think of setting a sales target for the sole sales staff half way through the year based on what the company needed in profit rather than any other factors.


I set goals.
I also have a business plan for the business. Each one.
A map if you will of where I plan the business to be. A business plan however is not in any way a goal.

 

[Mr D]

One strongly disagrees!
If that person at the top does not get his or her personal goals from the profits of the company there may not be a company.
For the person at the bottom to achieve set goals there has to be an incentive and that's why many companies fail at goal setting in this country.
This is the reason that many of you have a poor veiw on this subject because there is rarely an incentive for all involved

Is there any reason the MD will have any goals relating to the employment?
The work of the business may help him achieve one or more goals.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Is there any reason the MD will have any goals relating to the employment?
The work of the business may help him achieve one or more goals.

The MD would have more success if he or she found ways for the employee to gain something from achieving the companies targets and goals .
The UK slave drive goal setting approach where the employee may just have a thank you is clearly not bearing results in the UK

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I know a chap who works for a supermarket. Everyone knows the company goals, and there is lots of training and whatever. His personal goals are to complete X activities each shift. He rarely bothers to get close. And the reason is there is no monitoring and zero assessment. It makes the whole goal setting thing a waste of time.

No its not a waste of time
You are still thinking about the employee reaching goals for no reward ! He might as well do bugger all he still gets paid the same

 

[fisicx]

No its not a waste of time
You are still thinking about the employee reaching goals for no reward ! He might as well do bugger all he still gets paid the same

That’s my whole point. Most goal setting is done badly. To do it right means a lot of time and effort. If done properly it can work really well. But that’s about as rare as hens teeth.

 

[MBE2017]

The MD would have more success if he or she found ways for the employee to gain something from achieving the companies targets and goals .
The UK slave drive goal setting approach where the employee may just have a thank you is clearly not bearing results in the UK

Normally I agree with Jeremy Hawke, but I have found a simple thank you, an email, letter or phone call saying just that can often bear more fruit than a bonus. I come back to my previous point, some managers and leaders can carry the argument and sell a companies goals and values to its workforce, most cannot.

Why not? I have pondered over that point for forty years, and still have little idea of the difference. All the managers say similar things, coach, cajole etc, but the odd one has the workers wishing to do it. Why is Klopp the LFC Manager so successful compared to the previous 30 years of supposedly top managers? No idea, he just is. Is it his enthusiasm, vision, knowledge? Did his predecessors not have the same?

 

[Mr D]

The MD would have more success if he or she found ways for the employee to gain something from achieving the companies targets and goals .
The UK slave drive goal setting approach where the employee may just have a thank you is clearly not bearing results in the UK

Only if MD goals were related to what employee was doing. No reason they should be.

The business benefits from employee - perhaps something needed in business plan about employee bonuses / profit share / perks.

 

[ChrisGoodfellow]

Goals are a great way to galvanise your team and to make decisions about what you should prioritise and sense check whether you have enough resources. I don't know how you'd grow a business without them.

It's easy to pick holes in badly set goals - and hard to set effective goals. But to rubbish the whole process is nonsense.

If you're looking for a framework, setting SMART goals - Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relevant, and Time-Bound - is helpful in avoiding some of the common pitfalls mentioned in this thread.


As a (hopefully helpful) aside, we moved from setting KPIs to activity-led goals and it's working well so far. So, rather than saying you need to increase the number of leads to X or revenue to Y, we set the activity that's going to drive those results, eg. creating collateral and having a certain number of well-qualified sales meetings.

That way we're focusing on leading indicators, rather than the results. Although, obviously, you need some decent thinking behind what activity is going to be effective.

Feedback welcome!

 

[InsuranceBroker]

I think goal setting needs to take into consideration vested interest. @fisicx is correct in that seemingly arbitrary goals, normally set for 'staff engagement' by amateurs and shareholders with bad HR policy (think tick box mentality, KPI's etc), are never going to provide a yield for management or the someone(s) they hired who just wants to work from 9-5 and go home.

However, goal setting as a business owner is imperative and I think we can all agree that this is why business plans, well thought out plans, not half baked ones for loan approval, is critical to business success. Any business always needs a checks and balance system in place and goal setting helps to direct the business towards the intended result(s).

If @Ozzy has managed to secure individuals who are as interested in his business goals as he is, despite not being as invested in the business success as he is, then he's really accomplished success in a well rounded strategy to incorporate goal setting into people management.