We have just lost £40 trying to send goods to the EU (and I'm angry)

[2JP]

The point is, you get what you pay for. See my previous post. You are absolutely correct that these carriers do not want to talk to their customers. That would cost more.

 

[Aniela]

This is BS. Companies use Live Chat* because they want to save money it's certainly not to give better service. Every man and his dog knows that. It is crap service, but cheaper for them. The only people who think it's better service are companies selling live chat software.....
For instant real time two way communication which a company cannot ignore you cannot, repeat cannot, improve on a phone call.
Ironically, the fact the carrier does not use personal contact but relies on automated E Mails etc was what has caused this, do you not understand what has (probably) gone wrong here ?

* (it's not "chat", it's a soddin' computer which goes through FAQs and tries to find the answer off that, usually unsuccessfully)

The chat bots I agree with you, I think they're awful. The strange thing is, is that they work extremely well. I just think the customer experience on that outweighs the benefits.

Yes, live chat saves money as companies can have staff speak to 2-3 people at a time, rather than the 1 on the phone, so makes sense for the business.

However, in general phone lines are usually awful for customer support. From my experience, the people that call customer support are people like yourself which just can not accept they are wrong.

They'll spend 40 minutes on the phone arguing that the colour of X product is white when they thought it was grey, despite the website clearing stating the colour, the product name stating the colour etc... they don't give up either... demanding a refund, threatening trading standards etc.

Not all customers of course but the majority; from previous experience at least. With live chat, it doesn't seem to happen all that much.

Most companies can provide better support via live chat, than over the phone.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Most companies can provide better support via live chat, than over the phone.

Because they were bloody awful on the phone to start with!

Take BT as an example. 45 minutes to speak to a help desk in India to someone who has no idea about the English language and they are a phone company for goodness sake. My small business can manage to pick up the phone in 4 rings.

 

[Aniela]

Because they were bloody awful on the phone to start with!

Take BT as an example. 45 minutes to speak to a help desk in India to someone who has no idea about the English language and they are a phone company for goodness sake. My small business can manage to pick up the phone in 4 rings.

Think they learned from that mistake.

BT customer service calls are now all handled in the UK and Ireland.

 

[Justin Smith]

We have now had one of the parcels returned. As mentioned previously it seems it is because the customer did not pay the tax via the link sent by E mail within the allotted time, so the carrier (DPD) then automatically sent it back. Why the customer did not do so is a secondary issue for me, but it could have been the E Mail went into a junk file, or an incorrect E Mail was used, or it was deleted accidentally, who knows ?
Carriers returning "un-deliverable" consignments is a problem we have regularly, they cannot be bothered to contact the sender if they cannot deliver a consignment. It annoys me because a 2 minute phone call may well save everyone (the carrier, the sender and the receiver) a hell of a lot of trouble. Why they think it's less work for them to send the parcel right back through their delivery network* than just pick up the phone I have never understood.

* then get into an argument about who is paying for the non delivery......

 

[fisicx]

Why they think it's less work for them to send the parcel right back through their delivery network* than just pick up the phone I have never understood.

It costs them nothing to return an item. The courier is paid pennies for each drop. They probably don't even know the customer's number. If no one answers the door within a few seconds they leave and move on to the next drop.

 

[Justin Smith]

It costs them nothing to return an item. The courier is paid pennies for each drop. They probably don't even know the customer's number. If no one answers the door within a few seconds they leave and move on to the next drop.

But it does cost them. They have to send it back through their delivery network then get a driver to drop it off at our premises. Then there is the inevitable argument about who is paying for the failed delivery, it all takes up time, theirs as well as ours.

 

[Justin Smith]

I have just had a bit of a shock.
I got through to Parcels2Go live chat (as in actually talking to someone) almost straightaway this time (it took 20 min and 40 min the last two times) and, very surprisingly they implied they would refund us the cost of the delivery. We do not have the confidence to resend it even though the customer still wants it because I don't want to go through all this again.
We're still waiting to get the other order back

 

[fisicx]

But it does cost them.

No it doesn't. It's just one more item in the truck. The whole process is automated so any cost is absorbed in the whole. And that cost is going to be pennies.

Think on it like this, if you put a reel of co-ax in your car while you deliver an aerial and drive back with the co-ax still in the car what was the cost of taking the co-ax there and back again?

 

[Chris Ashdown]

I have just had a bit of a shock.
I got through to Parcels2Go live chat (as in actually talking to someone) almost straightaway this time (it took 20 min and 40 min the last two times) and, very surprisingly they implied they would refund us the cost of the delivery. We do not have the confidence to resend it even though the customer still wants it because I don't want to go through all this again.
We're still waiting to get the other order back

That's because the Government sorted it out for you when they read your comments and had a word to Parcels2go

 

[UKSBD]

That's because the Government sorted it out for you when they read your comments and had a word to Parcels2go

They didn't read his comments here, they've got a key logger on his pc.

 

[scstock]

We have now had one of the parcels returned. As mentioned previously it seems it is because the customer did not pay the tax via the link sent by E mail within the allotted time, so the carrier (DPD) then automatically sent it back. Why the customer did not do so is a secondary issue for me, but it could have been the E Mail went into a junk file, or an incorrect E Mail was used, or it was deleted accidentally, who knows ?

DPD also require you to provide a contact name and phone number for the customer yet do not use it. I asked yesterday if there was a number the customer could call where they could give the consignment number and pay the Import VAT over the phone....computer says no.

 

[japancool]

It's hilarious.

Those who have never bothered to expand their horizons outside the EU are now "Oh noes! All dis paperwork! What do I do? I'm useless! It's all someone else's fault!" whereas those who are used to dealing with the rest of the world just shrug their shoulders and get on with it.

 

[Justin Smith]

No it doesn't [cost the carrier anything to return a parcel]. It's just one more item in the truck. The whole process is automated so any cost is absorbed in the whole. And that cost is going to be pennies.
Think on it like this, if you put a reel of co-ax in your car while you deliver an aerial and drive back with the co-ax still in the car what was the cost of taking the co-ax there and back again?

Can I have that in writing and I'll show it to my carrier ? After all if it doesn't cost the carrier anything to deliver my parcels then they are quite plainly ripping me off and I'll ask them if they'll stop charging me altogether......

Obviously it costs the courier to return a parcel. Quite apart from anything you are forgetting that the most expensive part of any delivery is the last bit where a driver has to go to an individual address. Which they had to do when they redelivered that parcel to us.

 

[Justin Smith]

It's hilarious.

Those who have never bothered to expand their horizons outside the EU are now "Oh noes! All dis paperwork! What do I do? I'm useless! It's all someone else's fault!" whereas those who are used to dealing with the rest of the world just shrug their shoulders and get on with it.

I think you are forgetting something rather important. I'm talking about a retailer sending an individual order here. We sent most orders to EU countries because it was cheaper.
We were just as happy to send orders all over the world but time after time we get customers asking for a carriage quote and when we get one for them we never hear anything again. Classic example, a customer wanted an aerial sent to the US, the price of carriage ? Just under £90.....

 

[fisicx]

Can I have that in writing and I'll show it to my carrier ? After all if it doesn't cost the carrier anything to deliver my parcels then they are quite plainly ripping me off and I'll ask them if they'll stop charging me altogether......

You obviously know nothing about how the haulage system works. Your posts are just making you look more foolish each time.

 

[Justin Smith]

You obviously know nothing about how the haulage system works. Your posts are just making you look more foolish each time.

And saying it costs nothing to send something through their system (incl having to deliver it) costs nothing, or even "just pennies", does not make one look foolish ?
I have been dealing with multiple carriers for about 15 years, what do I know.....
But the fact is that most customers, us for certain, will argue whether they have to pay for a delivery which is not made because usually the carrier's case is paper thin anyway. Almost every time we end up not paying for it, and even on the rare occasion we do it will have cost them loads of admin time in arguing with us. But, I suppose, if it costs them nothing to return it through their network, it presumably cost them nothing to send it in the first place, so they should refund us even if it is our customers fault (which it usually isn't anyway).....

 

[fisicx]

And saying it costs nothing to send something through their system (incl having to deliver it) costs nothing, or even "just pennies", does not make one look foolish ?

Yes it does. They don't put one Item on a truck/plain/container. They have thousands of consignments. The cost is spread across the whole. Adding or removing one item to a van doesn't affect the overall cost. Of the £40 you paid for delivery I doubt the actual cost of that one item was more than a few pounds. The rest goes on infrastructure, admin and wages. In fact it's likely the item never even left the UK if the paperwork was incomplete.

 

[Justin Smith]

Yes it does. They don't put one Item on a truck/plain/container. They have thousands of consignments. The cost is spread across the whole. Adding or removing one item to a van doesn't affect the overall cost. Of the £40 you paid for delivery I doubt the actual cost of that one item was more than a few pounds. The rest goes on infrastructure, admin and wages. In fact it's likely the item never even left the UK if the paperwork was incomplete.

The item had left the UK, it was tracked to DPD's Dutch hub, despite the fact it was actually going to Belgium.
I am fully aware of the fact that most of consignment handling is automated or bulk (if picked up from a company regularly sending multiple items). However the actual delivery to our customer is not, or indeed the delivery back to us. As it happens wit was booked Hermes (not our usual carrier) so both the initial collection from us, and the re-delivery back to us were on an individual basis.
BUT, you have not answered the point we are now getting the cost of the failed delivery back, and so it has directly cost DPD £20 or whatever.

 

[Mr Dibb]

We stopped dealing with the carrier brokers years ago. Too many problems when things go wrong (no matter what the destination). Go direct and talk to the horse's mouth.

Also use electronic commercial invoicing. We didn't have to make any changes to our despatch procedures for Brexit as it our system automatically electronically sent the invoice to the carrier. Our customers receive the request for customs payment just a few minutes after the parcel is collected.

Had zero issues or delays for 100 odd parcels sent to the EU this year.

People forget parcels still went via customs when we was in the EU. We had a few parcels get delayed there.

 

[Justin Smith]

We stopped dealing with the carrier brokers years ago. Too many problems when things go wrong (no matter what the destination). Go direct and talk to the horse's mouth.

Also use electronic commercial invoicing. We didn't have to make any changes to our despatch procedures for Brexit as it our system automatically electronically sent the invoice to the carrier. Our customers receive the request for customs payment just a few minutes after the parcel is collected.

Had zero issues or delays for 100 odd parcels sent to the EU this year.

People forget parcels still went via customs when we was in the EU. We had a few parcels get delayed there.

We have to use a parcels agent for international (or Hermes to places like NI, the IofW or NW Scotland) because we do not spend enough to be able to deal with more than one carrier (plus the RM) directly. In fact when we dealt with TNT (who also ship internationally) it was still cheaper to use ParcelsToGo than TNT despite the fact we were spending about £3K a month with TNT back then. Sometimes it was even cheaper to book the same TNT service through ParcelsToGo than book them direct ! That was quite annoying.....
ParcelsToGo [sic] are pretty good (they are cheap and I like their monthly invoice statements which list the VAT separately), until something goes wrong. Then it's a nightmare...... But, as I said earlier, it very rarely ever used to go wrong.

 

[Justin Smith]

I have just had a bit of a shock.
I got through to Parcels2Go live chat (as in actually talking to someone) almost straightaway this time (it took 20 min and 40 min the last two times) and, very surprisingly they implied they would refund us the cost of the delivery. We do not have the confidence to resend it even though the customer still wants it because I don't want to go through all this again.
We're still waiting to get the other order back

We have now had the other order back. Apart from the fact the box is knackered (so we'll have to source another one....) the aerial seems OK. Even better news ParcelsToGo answered the "Online Chat" almost straight away (no 40 minute wait this time) I nearly fell off my chair..... They say they will refund us for the non delivery, though, of course, the amount of time we've spent on this is far more than the £20 odd we'll get back.
What's a bit sad about this is both customers still want the aerials, but we're nor prepared risk having to go through all this again, not for the amount of money we'd be making on the orders.

 

[Justin Smith]

It costs them nothing to return an item. The courier is paid pennies for each drop. They probably don't even know the customer's number. If no one answers the door within a few seconds they leave and move on to the next drop.

But it does cost them. They have to send it back through their delivery network then get a driver to drop it off at our premises. Then there is the inevitable argument about who is paying for the failed delivery, it all takes up time, theirs as well as ours.

I think we're both forgetting something though aren't we ?
Even if it doesn't cost them anything to return the item (and we'll have to agree to disagree on if it does), and we also overlook the fact they'll have to refund us anyway, what about customer service ? DPD have proved they are not bothered about providing a decent service, that's the top and bottom of it. Had they actually been bothered everyone would have been happy, or at least much happier. We would, the parcels agent would, our customer would, and, bearing in mind DPD are having to refund us anyway, ultimately DPD would as well.

 

[fisicx]

DPD have proved they are not bothered about providing a decent service, that's the top and bottom of it.

A decent service for you perhaps. If you were sending thousands of parcels per day then things would probably be better. A customer (you) using a third party provider to book their services once in a blue moon is right at the bottom of their barrel. They don't care about you and never will.

 

[Justin Smith]

A decent service for you perhaps. If you were sending thousands of parcels per day then things would probably be better. A customer (you) using a third party provider to book their services once in a blue moon is right at the bottom of their barrel. They don't care about you and never will.

That's what I said, poor customer service !
The definition of poor customer service is, I'd have thought, not being bothered about giving a good service to your customers. Which is definitely not something we could ever be accused of.
In this case they'll be refunding me all my money so they have actually lost out in any terms you want to use. Though apparently, it didn't actually cost them anything to send my parcels (to Belgium and Poland and then back again) so perhaps it does not matter so much, apart from the fact they have lost out on about £30 of course.

 

[NickGrogan]

Which is definitely not something we could ever be accused of

As you failed to deliver to your customer, isn't that bad service?

 

[fisicx]

The definition of poor customer service is, I'd have thought, not being bothered about giving a good service to your customers.

I disagree. As a business you choose who you want as your customers. DPD don't really want your custom so they put in the level of customer support they felt was appropriate. Maybe if you had dealt directly with them and not through an intermediary your would have got a better support.

But lets go right back to the beginning. If the correct paperwork had be provided the item would have been delivered. The fault is not with DPD or the delivery driver. It's with whoever prepared the consignment. Which is you. You provided poor customer service.

 

[antropy]

This is when an office punch bag or relaxation room comes in handy Alex

 

[Paul W.]

Justin, if you are having problems with your current supplier maybe look at an alternative? I work in market research & a couple of years ago (pre-covid and pre-brexit) I did some work for a mid-sized logistics outfit called ILG. They provided a service something like you're talking about which they called their global delivery service. Not sure how it would compare with what you are using but I do know that when speaking with their customers, their customers rated them highly for their customer service. Obviously I have no customer-eye view on how they have coped with Brexit but they might be worth a look.

 

[Justin Smith]

I disagree. As a business you choose who you want as your customers. DPD don't really want your custom so they put in the level of customer support they felt was appropriate. Maybe if you had dealt directly with them and not through an intermediary your would have got a better support.
But lets go right back to the beginning. If the correct paperwork had be provided the item would have been delivered. The fault is not with DPD or the delivery driver. It's with whoever prepared the consignment. Which is you. You provided poor customer service.

You are incorrect in everything you say :

1 - By definition DPD do wont the business or they wouldn't give ParcelsToGo a huge discount to get it.

2- No business, which values its reputation, would be purposely giving bad service to discourage trade, which is what you are effectively saying. What they should be doing, if they genuinely do not want the business, is pricing the product to make it worth there while.

3 - There was nothing wrong with our paperwork, it was the fault of DPD and possibly ParcelsToGo as well. DPD, and other posters have confirmed this, just send an automated E Mail requesting payment of the tax then send the item back if it is not paid. I would say that is unacceptable and so would most people.

You are correct in one thing, that we might have got better support from DPD had we dealt directly with them, but we do not send enough with them to make it worthwhile from the cost point of view. That said, in my experience, most companies are so unwilling to actually talk to their customers these days that there is no guarantee we would actually have got the requisite level of service.

 

[MikeJ]

On a similar subject, my wife bought some boots just before Xmas, which were shipped from The Netherlands. They're too big, and she's now sent them back three times. And each time they've been returned to her because the paperwork wasn't correct.

We've followed the instructions to the letter. Granted, the first time we attached the invoice to the package in a regular envelope rather than a "Documents Enclosed" one, but other than that I can't see we've done nothing wrong. Each time it appears the invoice has become detached from the package, and they return it to us. It may be a VAT, or possibly a duty issue - they were shipped before Brexit but are being returned after, so I can see that could cause some paperwork problems.

 

[Justin Smith]

We have just had an order from Ireland, and I'm unsure what to do about it.
On the one hand I'm proud of our products and I want to give a good service (I'm actually less bothered about the mere £8 we'll make on the order), but on the other hand I really don't want all this hassle again. I suspect to Cork it'd go by Hermes all the way to the customer this time so it will probably be OK. Last time it went :
Us (booked via ParcelsToGo) > Hermes > DPD UK > DPD Holland (despite the fact it was actually going to Belgium ! ) then all the way back again.....
To a certain extent it may be irrelevant anyway, the total carriage we'll require form the customer will be £15 for a product that only cost £21 ! And that's to Ireland, not India or Malaysia or any of these other countries the Govt are hoping we'll export to. That's why I was always very dubious about these trumpeted "new trade opportunities."

 

[Justin Smith]

Justin, if you are having problems with your current supplier maybe look at an alternative? I work in market research & a couple of years ago (pre-covid and pre-brexit) I did some work for a mid-sized logistics outfit called ILG. They provided a service something like you're talking about which they called their global delivery service. Not sure how it would compare with what you are using but I do know that when speaking with their customers, their customers rated them highly for their customer service. Obviously I have no customer-eye view on how they have coped with Brexit but they might be worth a look.

Thanks for that Paul.
The problem is the amount we send abroad, it's only about 2 a month, mainly because it's so expensive. Thus most carriers are not really interested in our business, certainly at a cheap price. Thus the fact we end up using ParcelsToGo (sic).

 

[MikeJ]

And that's to Ireland, not India or Malaysia or any of these other countries the Govt are hoping we'll export to. That's why I was always very dubious about these trumpeted "new trade opportunities."

The government isn't interested in people shipping £20 orders to India. They want container loads, where the paperwork is a tiny fraction of the cost of the shipment. Our typical orders are £1-5k, so the paperwork really isn't significant but we do get the occasional £50-£100 order and that's just a nightmare to deal with.

 

[Justin Smith]

The government isn't interested in people shipping £20 orders to India. They want container loads, where the paperwork is a tiny fraction of the cost of the shipment. Our typical orders are £1-5k, so the paperwork really isn't significant but we do get the occasional £50-£100 order and that's just a nightmare to deal with.

I agree large orders generate most money, but I would suspect there are far more smaller orders, particularly in the last 10 to 20 years where Online has made selling so much easier. And all those thousands of small orders add up.

 

[Justin Smith]

We have just had an order from Ireland, and I'm unsure what to do about it.
On the one hand I'm proud of our products and I want to give a good service (I'm actually less bothered about the mere £8 we'll make on the order), but on the other hand I really don't want all this hassle again. I suspect to Cork it'd go by Hermes all the way to the customer this time so it will probably be OK. Last time it went :
Us (booked via ParcelsToGo) > Hermes > DPD UK > DPD Holland (despite the fact it was actually going to Belgium ! ) then all the way back again.....
To a certain extent it may be irrelevant anyway, the total carriage we'll require form the customer will be £15 for a product that only cost £21 ! And that's to Ireland, not India or Malaysia or any of these other countries the Govt are hoping we'll export to. That's why I was always very dubious about these trumpeted "new trade opportunities."

The customer did pay the surcharge, partly because many of our products are quite specialised, in fact some you literally cannot get anywhere else. We will see if it gets there, I think it will for the reasons mentioned.

 

[Paul FilmMaker]

I worked as a clerk in the Anglo-French trade department of a bank before the EU. i.e. Before the treaty of Maastricht was signed. I specialised in industrial machinery being exported from the UK into France and was based in France. My job was to find out what the latest mess was and try to fix it.

To everyone who thinks all the problems exporting are something to do with a supplier or courrier etc..., they aren't. It's exactly the same things as I dealt with back in 1991. It's French customs. When they have a bad day, which is pretty much every day, they play their favourite game which is 'scr@w over the English.'

Doesn't matter if the paperwork is perfect, they will deliberately mess things up. Exporters of big, expensive items knew this so assigned a low-level, underpaid idiot like me to sort them out. Poitiers customs was my favourite. 400,000 items and 10 customs officers 'inspecting' things by hand which included breaking them. And 300 miles inland so nowhere near the port where the piece of kit was landed. In fact, the first thing we had to do was find the items which had somehow gone missing in amongst the 400,000 items. E.g. it took 9 months to get a single computer across. One. Not a consignment, but a single computer.

I remember sending down a really pretty girl like me to Poitiers. After one visit, she refused ever to deal with customs again. They weren't just bad, they were abusive and used to issue threats. Just because they could.

And customs were the same in other countries. Germany, Italy, Spain. Don't even get me started on Italian customs.

It was different if there was a political motivation. For example, all the gear for the Channel Tunnel went through with a hand wave. It was automatic.

The EU gave us the ability to get our goods through customs. Larger exporters will simply stop manufacturing / distributing from the UK and move their operations out to the EU because that's the only way to consistently be able to supply unless there's a political deal in place.

So sorry, OP, Brexit means you and every, other British exporter will consistently have issues. The only way to export consistently is to set up in the EU, pay taxes in the EU and hire EU staff.

 

[thetiger2015]

So sorry, OP, Brexit means you and every, other British exporter will consistently have issues. The only way to export consistently is to set up in the EU, pay taxes in the EU and hire EU staff.

..or find a fulfilment warehouse in the EU if you're doing lots of orders?

Ideally, something operated by a British team, so they understand everything but are EU based for dealing with complexities and difficulties. Not sure if there are many of those open...yet...though.

 

[Paul FilmMaker]

..or find a fulfilment warehouse in the EU if you're doing lots of orders?

Ideally, something operated by a British team, so they understand everything but are EU based for dealing with complexities and difficulties. Not sure if there are many of those open...yet...though.

A fulfilment centre does nothing.

The problem is getting the product from the UK to France. That was my job. A low level clerk just trying to sort out higher value goods lost in the system. Bigger businesses will just move to France.

 

[gpietersz]

@Paul FilmMaker so your argument is that we should be in the EU because they hate us?

Not entirely convinced.

What you say about French customs sounds like dealing with third world customs, except the latter will stop doing it if you bribe them.

It sounds to me as though the British government needs to take a tougher line and retaliate for unfair treatment - the problem is that the EU nationalists in the UK will then say its all our fault.

The good news is that the EU was a falling proportion of our trade even before Brexit. If they are determined to choke off trade then it will fall even faster.