Brexit negotiations

[MASSEY]

They don't do enough i think, but also, when they do donate, to say cancer research, that probably barely covers the wage bill of these 'charities' .

I had bad sun burn a couple weeks ago, i decided to order some things off amazon , the two hour delivery slot for groceries thing, now a company like that earns a fortune, why was it setting my order with a £2 tip ? Pre set.

Because, i think, they're greedy fackers and want to get away with paying low wages and make the customers subsidise or make the job seem more attractive.

And maybe if tesco paid better wages the need for charitable acts in this country wouldn't be so great.

 

[MASSEY]

I'd be interested to know how much of your work is in the EU?

None but what does it matter. I get no profit from them but as soon as one of the crack pot countries like greece goes bankrupt cost of living goes up.

Our trade has needed shaking up for years. It's no argument to say oh we can't do that i get 50 quid a week of petra in bulgaria and im scared i might lose it.

 

[Mr D]

Cancer research? Perhaps the people doing the work want to be paid.
A minor thing perhaps but are there enough volunteers with the required skills able to put in enough hours to do what is needed? Perhaps not.

Places without a £2 tip that instead add whatever to the item prices, perhaps better for you to order from? Would that have made you happier?
Someone has to pay for the goods and services, that's often the customer. If you don't want to pay the tip then don't order.
Surely other places also stock what you want and with no tips required.

 

[Mr D]

And maybe if tesco paid better wages the need for charitable acts in this country wouldn't be so great.

How much should they pay?
What is the hourly rate that would suit you for Tesco staff to be paid?

 

[Mr D]

Corbyn would turn us into Venezuela. What was it he was saying a couple weeks ago? Any empty property should be broken into and the people made homeless from grenfal tower should be allowed to live there for free.

Man is an idiot.

And how was it solved at least for some families? Buying up property - which is both quicker and has less of a legal fight than his idea of stealing properties.

 

[KM-Tiger]

On the subject of minimum wage, look what the savage cuts by the wicked tories has done.

The double whammy of the minimum wage and tax free allowance surely makes poorer people better off?

 

[Newchodge]

On the subject of minimum wage, look what the savage cuts by the wicked tories has done.

The double whammy of the minimum wage and tax free allowance surely makes poorer people better off?

A lot of these figures are open to interperetation. For example - people in employment. How many hours per week. Annual minimum wage how many hours. There are a lot of people in employment but who have only part time work, so their income is still restricted.

 

[Mr D]

There were people years ago who were only in part time employment.
Not everyone wants a full time job, not everyone can work a full time job.
And not every employer can give all staff a full time job.

My better half is currently applying for a 24 hours a week job and rather looking forward to it. If they had put forward a 35 hour a week job she wouldn't have bothered applying.

 

[Clinton]

On the subject of minimum wage, look what the savage cuts by the wicked tories has done.

The double whammy of the minimum wage and tax free allowance surely makes poorer people better off?

The problem is that Tory hatred is so ingrained in the DNA for some that they refuse to accept anything other than Tory = Bad.

To add to that, the preferred Tory option for getting the books in order (reducing spending rather than borrowing to "fuel growth") has been blown up by the media and opposition parties. Everybody now refers to it as "Austerity" rather than the more accurate but less inflamatory "Responsible Spending", and many Labour voters blame Austerity for everything that's wrong with the world today.

There is good and bad in both main parties, but there is no hatred so visceral as that which diehard Labour supporters reserve for anything Tory.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

None but what does it matter.

So, you blame the EU because other workers in other countries have more initiative than you. I know several British tradesman, including electricians, working in France, and doing very well. They moved for a better standard of living, a better way of life and better services.

 

[Paul Norman]

The problem is that Tory hatred is so ingrained in the DNA for some that they refuse to accept anything other than Tory = Bad.

To add to that, the preferred Tory option for getting the books in order (reducing spending rather than borrowing to "fuel growth") has been blown up by the media and opposition parties. Everybody now refers to it as "Austerity" rather than the more accurate but less inflamatory "Responsible Spending", and many Labour voters blame Austerity for everything that's wrong with the world today.

There is good and bad in both main parties, but there is no hatred so visceral as that which diehard Labour supporters reserve for anything Tory.

I agree. But it does go both ways. On this thread Corbyn is credited with saying that poor people should break into empty properties and occupy them. He did not say this - the press reported that he did.

In both directions we are now in a situation where debate is based on false, and extreme, accusations about people like Corbyn and May. Neither are mad. Corbyn will not turn us into Venezuela. Or Russia. Theresa May actually was a Remain campaigner, so it is unlikely that she will be a rash leaver.

Reading through this thread I worry less about the politicians, and more about us, the voters, who so readily buy, and pass on, things that are not just untrue, they are a tiny bit silly.

 

[Clinton]

In both directions we are now in a situation where debate is based on false, and extreme, accusations about people like Corbyn and May.

False and extreme sells copy, yes, but it has become the mainstay of news because people understand short and extreme. That's what you need to use to get the message across today, sadly. Anything nuanced and the man on the street goes all glassy-eyed. You lose him when your copy exceeds 140 characters.

Take that employment message from a few posts ago. Employment has risen, yes, but Cyndy has a point that many of the jobs are not full time jobs. However, Mr D has a point, too. Society has changed since the 70s and there are a lot of people who are quite happy with the flexibility afforded to them by the 21st century version of the mac job. But not everybody. Multinationals are exploiting the others and avoiding all the burdens of being an employer. Then there's contamination of the employment stats and the moving of goal posts with respect what constitutes unemployment. So are the Tories genuises for giving us higher employment than we had under Labour? No. Or maybe yes. The answer can't be summarised in the one word answers expected of people whose attention span is shorter than the duration women on Love Island can keep their pants on.

So paint Corbyn as an loony, wannabe Castro and paint Theresa May as Cruella Deville and people get the message. Especially if the message is well aligned with the stereotypical view of what each of the main parties stands for. Keep it Easy. Keep it Simple. Keep it so the chattering classes can understand it.

Reading through this thread I worry less about the politicians, and more about us...

Me too. I blame our schools and the education system for this sorry state of affairs. Education should never be something the government pays for and controls because they use it as a tool to make the population dumb. But that's another story for another day.

 

[Mr D]

I notice this time people waited a whole 3 weeks before a march to get the government out.
Rather than last time's a few days.
Its like they don't accept a general election result if the other voters make different decisions than them.

 

[quikshop]

False and extreme sells copy, yes, but it has become the mainstay of news because people understand short and extreme. That's what you need to use to get the message across today, sadly. Anything nuanced and the man on the street goes all glassy-eyed. You lose him when your copy exceeds 140 characters.

My current soapbox rant topic of choice; the twitterati generation with the attention span of an unhatched duckling egg who espouse wafer thin opinion-based comment as fact with all the intellectual rigour of a Klopp defensive strategy

More and more the primary news outlets inc. the BBC, Sky News and Channel 4 who are especially skilled in this, take an subjective opinion that supports their political slant, use it as a premise for a news piece and layer conjecture on top, implying conclusions as factual and worthy of concern.

The fact that most of us on here can see it is one thing, but there are many out there who fail to challenge the vested interest that runs throughout like a stick of Blackpool Rock

 

[Clinton]

.. the attention span of an unhatched duckling egg

Nice analogy, but I still prefer mine involving women on Love Island and how long they keep their pants on.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Nice analogy, but I still prefer mine involving women on Love Island and how long they keep their pants on.

Does this mean you have watched Love Island?

 

[Clinton]

I saw about 8 minutes of it. Something else with kids today - including my nephews and nieces as much as I love them - they won't turn their bloody TV off when you visit them. And maybe it's my age, but I can't concentrate on dropping pearls of wisdom if there's a distraction like a TV programme filling an entire wall.

Hey, maybe it's to protect against the pearls of wisdom that they keep the TV on in the first place!

 

[Cobby]

With regards to low skilled work, we already know employers were opting for euopeans over British. Why? Because of the stupid EU and the stupid labour government and all these loop holes.

This is a poor and rather aimless generalisation, and also doesn't match real world experience. There are many reasons europeans are employed over UK citizens, but the most common reason seems to be 'work ethic'.

The labour government aren't the good guys lol, they had Blair in power for a decade or more and he ruined the country.

Anyone who understands that would want to exit the eu.

Correction: "Anyone who believes that would want to exit the eu."

 

[Cobby]

You're just contradicting yourself now. The Nordic Socialist Democracy model with its free social provision of healthcare, child care, education etc etc on the back of high taxes all enabled by its destructive capitalism is probably the fairest way of marrying enterprise and innovation with social responsibility.

If you don't think the Nordic model has a social conscience then you don't understand the term.

The Nordic model you are describing isn't Capitalism. This should be obvious by your need to use the term 'socialist' in the description.

If you do understand the term and still think their State does not deliver on its social responsibilities then you must be further left than I assumed. How is that socialist Utopia Venezuela getting on?

Not everyone who disagrees with you wants the most extreme version you can conjour up. There is nuance available and if you need an example of that, refer back to the Nordic system you referenced above.

 

[Cobby]

On the subject of minimum wage, look what the savage cuts by the wicked tories has done.

*cough*global economic crisis*cough*

 

[Cobby]

To add to that, the preferred Tory option for getting the books in order (reducing spending rather than borrowing to "fuel growth") has been blown up by the media and opposition parties. Everybody now refers to it as "Austerity" rather than the more accurate but less inflamatory "Responsible Spending", and many Labour voters blame Austerity for everything that's wrong with the world today.

I suppose it depends upon one's definition of "Responsible". For instance, cutting NHS support service spending and thus increasing the load on the core services, while also cutting the spending on that (as a % of GDP), is short sighted, wasteful and irresponsible. The effects from the current government's "Responsible Spending" or, as it's more accurately called, "Austerity", are widespread and affect many in a very negative way. This can be seen by, as you say, Labour voters, i.e. mostly working class and those who have direct experience of the negative effects of Austerity, blaming it. As opposed to the Tory voters (mostly the older/wealthier/Baby Boomers) who tend not to suffer the effects of Austerity, *not* blaming it.

There is good and bad in both main parties, but there is no hatred so visceral as that which diehard Labour supporters reserve for anything Tory.

It's understandable up to a point; the Conservative government have imposed hardship on many and increased the rate of poverty. However, the vitriolic rage and eruptions of "communist!", "Stalin!", "Venezuela!", "idiots!" from right-wingers when Corbyn's name is simply mentioned is pretty telling, especially since he hasn't actually done anything to them yet.

Me too. I blame our schools and the education system for this sorry state of affairs. Education should never be something the government pays for and controls because they use it as a tool to make the population dumb. But that's another story for another day.

...yeah and don't forget the chemicals to make us compliant that they spread in the chemtrails behind aeroplanes...

 

[Cobby]

I notice this time people waited a whole 3 weeks before a march to get the government out.
Rather than last time's a few days.
Its like they don't accept a general election result if the other voters make different decisions than them.

That's intellectually dishonest and you know it.

The 'last time' (let's assume you mean the EU ref) was about the dismissal of half the population in light of the completely dishonest nature of the campaign and narrow margin of victory. The protests we've seen in the last 18-24 months have a very strong tendency to be about demonstrably abhorrent government policies.

Trying to paint them as churlish and immature is incredibly disingenuous.

 

[MASSEY]

How much should they pay?
What is the hourly rate that would suit you for Tesco staff to be paid?

Tenner an hr should do that's enough to live on.

 

[MASSEY]

This is a poor and rather aimless generalisation, and also doesn't match real world experience. There are many reasons europeans are employed over UK citizens, but the most common reason seems to be 'work ethic'.


Correction: "Anyone who believes that would want to exit the eu."

Have you not seen the documentaries? Exposing how cheap European labour (something that should not compete with low skilled UK labour, simple economics) where they live in squalid conditions packing fruit, working in / under disgusting conditions in places like sports direct. Work ethic or not the sysyem is broken for a number of reasons, all an over hang from the labour government.

Tell me how labour didn't ruin the country? Anyway it's not worth talking about labour aren't gonna get back in power for a long time their leaders are too stupid. Take people's houses and give them away lol good luck labour.

 

[Mr D]

Tenner an hr should do that's enough to live on.

Willing to spend a few extra quid a week shopping at Tesco?
For no extra goods of course.

 

[Mr D]

Have you not seen the documentaries? Exposing how cheap European labour (something that should not compete with low skilled UK labour, simple economics) where they live in squalid conditions packing fruit, working in / under disgusting conditions in places like sports direct. Work ethic or not the sysyem is broken for a number of reasons, all an over hang from the labour government.

Tell me how labour didn't ruin the country? Anyway it's not worth talking about labour aren't gonna get back in power for a long time their leaders are too stupid. Take people's houses and give them away lol good luck labour.

The voting last time, just last month, suggests that Labour could win a general election.
Luckily with such a weak conservative win this time it could be June 2022 before the next general election.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Tenner an hr should do that's enough to live on.

I'm surprised that no one seems to know that Tesco and most of the other supermarkets have different wage rates for different areas of the country. They also have different shelf prices in different areas. The cheapest shop prices are around London which also has the highest wages. The far southwest has higher shop prices and lower wages. Additionally Tesco and Sainsbury hardly employ anyone. They are mostly on zero hours contracts.

Our local Lidl pay the best rates and do not use zero hours contracts.

 

[Mr D]

Really?
I know several Tesco staff, none are on zero hour contracts.
Wife applied for a job at Tesco, only 30 hours a week - again not zero hours. That was just last year.

Perhaps besides not knowing they cannot support charities they also do not know they should be having zero hours contracts.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40540340

Huzzah. Panic over.

I can't wait to see what sort of trade deal we'll get from protectionist, "America first" Trump.

The only way we'll have a deal done "very, very quickly" is if May bows down to the vast majority of the US's demands to sign a trade deal skewed heavily in their favour.

This is the big problem. We are desperate for trade deals to shift dependence away from Europe. And we need them quickly. Every world leader knows that.

The main reason FTAs take so long (often 5-10+ years) is because every detail is negotiated so both sides try to get the best terms for themselves. Unfortunately, we cannot afford to do that.

Our Government often says "no deal is better than a bad deal" when it comes to the EU. Are we going to apply the same rule to every other major economy as well?

The difficulty of this situation is hugely underestimated. When we leave the EU, we leave the single market and also 60+ global FTAs brokered by the EU.

Considering the amount of time and effort required to negotiate free trade agreements (particularly to get a good result), we're going to seriously struggle on resources alone.

Civil service cuts, combined with the largest Whitehall "project" since World War 2, is a recipe for disaster. Even if we want to claw back a fifth of the trade agreements we had within the EU, we'll have to simultaneously negotiate with the EU and 12 different economies at the same time.

And what makes this an order of magnitude more difficult is that countries will factor in our trade relationships with other countries when it comes to their own negotiations. As the article above mentions, the US will want to see what sort of trade access we have with Europe to understand the advantages they can gain by using the UK as a gateway to the European market. The better our trade relationship is with Europe, the more valuable we are to the Americans.

It's a catch-22 situation. How do we negotiate even 5 trade deals simultaneously when every opposing party is reluctant to be the first to commit? What we arrange with Japan will impact negotiations with the US. What we arrange with Europe will impact negotiations with Japan, and so on.

No country in recent history has went back to square one like the UK will. Even Afghanistan will have more free trade agreements than us. Eventually, I'm sure we'll be on our way, but it's the beginning, when we're most desperate, where the major difficulties lie.

In many cases, we will have no choice but to give away concessions we otherwise wouldn't have.

 

[Mr D]

This is what the voters decided to vote for. Now we are pretty much stuck with it.

 

[KM-Tiger]

We are desperate for trade deals to shift dependence away from Europe.

Are we?

At the moment we do quite well trading with the USA without an agreement and can continue to do so. And with other countries.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

The only way we'll have a deal done "very, very quickly" is if May bows down to the vast majority of the US's demands to sign a trade deal skewed heavily in their favour.

That will impact British Farmers, Car makers and many other workers who voted Leave.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Are we?

At the moment we do quite well trading with the USA without an agreement and can continue to do so. And with other countries.

Yes.

When we leave the single market, almost 50% of our trade is going to run into difficulties. Not just more expensive exports, but more expensive imports as well (which impact consumer prices). Not to mention quotas, carnets and the many other forms of bureaucracy.

We can mitigate the damage caused by Brexit by offsetting that with enhanced trade with other countries. That is, after all, what FTAs are about. They are designed to increase trade and make it more profitable.

The results, so far, speak for themselves:

USA - $18 trillion GDP - 14.6% of our exports
EU - $16.5 trillion GDP - 44% of our exports

Are we really doing "quite well" when it comes to trading with the USA?

Sure, there are other factors at play such as time zones and distance. But the fact remains that the USA is a larger economy, and it's English speaking where over 80% of our economy is based on services.

Don't forget, the EU is not just about the single market. We also enjoy many other trade agreements across the world which were negotiated by the EU as a bloc. They will vanish as well.

And as I mentioned before, trading arrangements with other countries make us more valuable. When the US negotiates with the UK, it's not just about the UK consumer market. It's also about how valuable the UK is as a stepping stone into other markets.

That's why the UK has benefitted so well from the single market. It's a $2.6 trillion economy and the ideal gateway into the $16.5 trillion economy of the European Union. Much of the existing US trade with the UK would have been established for that reason alone. If a US company wants to target Germany, Italy and France, for example, it's a lot easier to set up a base in the UK, with English-speaking staff and a slightly closer time zone, and then enjoy unfettered access to these three countries and the rest of Europe as a whole.

But now, we are set to lose most of these trade advantages, and take a blow to almost 50% of our total export trade at the same time. So yes, right now we are probably the most desperate country on Earth for free trade agreements. We aren't just trying to grow. We're trying to maintain as much of what we already have as we can.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

That will impact British Farmers, Car makers and many other workers who voted Leave.

Don't forget the NHS. The United States is licking its lips at the thought of a slice of the British healthcare market.

May claims that the NHS would be off the table in UK-US negotiations. Soon we might see how strong her resolve really is.

I think even that alone will scupper any chance of this deal being done "very quickly". The US will not give up on such a lucrative market easily.

In fact, I believe they will be particularly stubborn because it's the perfect opportunity for American healthcare companies to prove themselves in front of the other European markets.

Members of the EU have always made sure that healthcare is off the table in FTAs like these. The UK, on the other hand, is a lot more desperate. The US will be keen to get involved with the added aim of creating a success story to make other European markets (like France and Germany) warm up to the idea of US investment in their own healthcare sectors.

It's David vs Goliath situation. The USA will continue to talk about our "special relationship", but they won't hesitate to use us as a pawn to further their own interests.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Sure, there are other factors at play such as time zones and distance.

Having worked for businesses in many countries I found time zones to be a big problem for my small one-man band. While large companies can cope with answering the phone in the middle of the night small businesses do not have that luxury. One has to cope with a far greater logistical problem when your clients, especially American, have difficulty understanding that you are asleep when they are in their office.

Trading in Europe is so much easier when a few same day phone calls can solve a problem.

 

[Mr D]

Small businesses can pay for out of hours services. Have worked night shifts in a call centre where we answered the phone for several dozen companies from big to small. Taking messages or following on screen instructions as needed.
For those who do not have your one man band problem there can be capacity to deal with calls from other time zones anyway.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Members of the EU have always made sure that healthcare is off the table in FTAs like these.

You sure about that? My understanding is that it was definitely on the table for TTIP.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Small businesses can pay for out of hours services. Have worked night shifts in a call centre where we answered the phone for several dozen companies from big to small. Taking messages or following on screen instructions as needed.
For those who do not have your one man band problem there can be capacity to deal with calls from other time zones anyway.

Name me a call centre who could deal with quoting fees, scheduling time, agreeing expenses, discussing creative aspects of an assignment and all the myriad things that need doing to build a personal rapport with the client.
You would be the last sort of person I'd want answering my phone!

 

[Deleted member 59730]

You sure about that? My understanding is that it was definitely on the table for TTIP.

"There’s no final text to look at, and the legal issues involved are complicated. It comes down to trust: the European Commission has consistently said that the terms it’s negotiating will keep the NHS safe from privatisation."

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Having worked for businesses in many countries I found time zones to be a big problem for my small one-man band. While large companies can cope with answering the phone in the middle of the night small businesses do not have that luxury. One has to cope with a far greater logistical problem when your clients, especially American, have difficulty understanding that you are asleep when they are in their office.

Trading in Europe is so much easier when a few same day phone calls can solve a problem.

Absolutely. A free trade agreement with the US may foster a bit more trade, but there will always be limits.

What makes this situation even worse for the UK is that over 80% of our economy is based in services. These sectors rely on "live" communication far, far more than goods do.

All in all, we have pretty much no chance when it comes to offsetting restricted EU trade with trade elsewhere. Many companies that work fine in Europe will struggle to have the same trade environment in America or Asia - regardless of trade deals.

We pretty much have the perfect scenario. A $16.5 trillion economy on our doorstep with fully aligned regulations and unfettered access to everything. On top of that, we enjoy over 60+ trade agreements negotiated with the leverage of the world's second largest economy.

It's an economic dream, but apparently not our cup of tea.