Brexit negotiations

[Clodbuster]

Plus we will be able to get rid of extremists indoctrinating youngsters into killing and stabbing without having to get EU permission which is never forthcoming. I lay the blame for the recent deaths at the EU door.

I am an immigrant and that question did not cross my mind, A person can come into the UK if they are required here and he could go to any EU country on the same basis. Why should a person go to any country and sponge off that system if it is better than that at home. If farmers need unskilled workers and the Brits don't want to do the work because it is beneath them or not near home then it will be easy enough to set up a scheme to bring them in from anywhere - does it have to be from Eastern EU? Nothing is impossible if thought is put into it.

What annoys me is the judicial interference and the exorbitant waste that occurs with the EU. I also want to have the right to decide how to spend that 350 odd million a week (and it could all go on the NHS despite it being a bloated whale)

 

[Newchodge]

I also want to have the right to decide how to spend that 350 odd million a week (and it could all go on the NHS despite it being a bloated whale)

Then you'd better stand for parliament as quickly as possible, otherwise you will have no say.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Perhaps you are not old enough to remember the time before we joined the EU?

I am, and there is no doubt that joining a "Common Market" at that time was a good move. But that was in a high tariff world. We are no longer in a high tariff world.

As regards exports to other places the trend for last 5 years or so is clear: exports to the EU are declining and exports to the rest of the world increasing.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Then you'd better stand for parliament

Are you going to? I think you would be good.

 

[Newchodge]

Are you going to? I think you would be good.

No thanks, too old for one thing!

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Plus we will be able to get rid of extremists indoctrinating youngsters into killing and stabbing without having to get EU permission which is never forthcoming. I lay the blame for the recent deaths at the EU door.

I think you are confusing the EU with the UN.

 

[Cobby]

Many people equate the EU and particularly unlimited EU migration to less available housing stock, over-sized school classes, teachers unable to cope with multi-lingual classes, A&E and GP services pushed to breaking point, sweeping cultural changes to their home town, priced out of local entry level jobs, increase in town centre vagrancy and homelessness, terrorists and criminals resisting deportation through one-eyed human rights laws... and I could go on.

Many people are also racist, ill-informed idiots. I'm not saying the two are related, just saying that *many people* are/believe in (x).

The problem here is that what you have listed above isn't a result of our membership in the EU, and the people who believe it get that idea from a very specific selection of media outlets and online echo-chambers. :/

 

[The Byre]

The scaremongering is always saying how we will be living in poverty. Who knows what the future will be, we know what it would have been if we remained, can it be any worse, I don't think it's likely. Seems to me like there's more chance things will be better,

That is crazy talk!

There are parts of the UK where standards of living are today FALLING. N.E.England, large parts of Wales and Northern Ireland in particular. Wales and NI now have a GDP-per capita of about $25,000 - that is below the Czech Republic or Slovenia. Now add a fall in trade, an increase in import costs (that is almost everything you eat and most cars and white and brown goods) and (in order to inflate ourselves out of debt) an increase in interest rates and the money supply.

Some parts of the UK remind me of post-war Britain or Soviet East Germany. Poverty and neglect wherever one looks. This is not a country that has the wherewithal to withstand even a slight economic setback.

Yes, London and the SE is very wealthy, as is the NE of Scotland, but these areas of wealth have to subsidise areas of real poverty, both geographic and social.

For a great number of people, things are getting worse right now. The problems and uncertainties of leaving the EU will hardly make things any better for them!

 

[Mr D]

Plus we will be able to get rid of extremists indoctrinating youngsters into killing and stabbing without having to get EU permission which is never forthcoming. I lay the blame for the recent deaths at the EU door.

Extremists like the guy who ran a van into a bunch of muslims in London?
He was from Cardiff from what the media reported.

 

[Cobby]

as we suffer the true consequences of capitalism without a social conscience.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of Capitalism if you think it has any form of social conscience.

UKIP did a great job of pointing out all the bad ones. Whether people were directly affected or not, all of the campaigning by UKIP pointed out all the provable stupid bad parts and most people figured it was not worth being a part of when proving the "benefit" is almost impossible to do.

From the moment UKIP started gaining momentum the conservatives and labour couldn't form any sort of argument that led people to believe it was worth being a part of.

Funny how, with the exception of a suppression effect on un/low-skilled wages, none of what they said was provable. So weird, almost like they were hysterically lying to get themselves into power...

Anyway, of course the ukippers wouldn't change their minds, you can't reason people out of something they didn't reason themselves into. :/

and some myself included were waiting for an intelligent pro-EU argument to be put forward by Remain (now re-branded as Soft Brexit) but instead they opted, and still opt for Project Fear.

I keep mis-remembering; Project Fear - was that the campaign where they demonised immigrants and stood in front of posters with words like "Breaking Point" on them and described them using inanimate adjectives and conflated them with terrorists? You know, so people were actually afraid of them? Was *that* Project Fear?

Or do you mean the collection of economic forecasts that varied between reasonable predictions of significant economic downturn, to assumptions of "We're all doomed, ah tell ya, dooooomed!"

 

[KM-Tiger]

I think you are confusing the EU with the UN.

I think he was referring to the ECHR (European Court of Human Rights) which has been an obstruction to deporting some undesirables.

Though it should be understood that the ECHR is quite separate from the EU, and subscribing to it is not a condition of EU membership. So to blame the EU for our inability to deport is incorrect.

 

[Clodbuster]

Extremists like the guy who ran a van into a bunch of muslims in London?
He was from Cardiff from what the media reported.

Not sure which cleric radicalised him at the Dog and Bone. He was a bit rubbish when you compare the effectiveness of the other drivers from who he must have taken the idea from.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Not sure which cleric radicalised him at the Dog and Bone. He was a bit rubbish when you compare the effectiveness of the other drivers from who he must have taken the idea from.

You don't think its was the rhetoric of Farage, Hopkins, Dacre etc which might have a bearing. Lets deport the troublemakers like them.

 

[Mr D]

Deport where?

 

[Mr D]

As an aside did anyone hear about the Brexit changes one MP wanted? Chuka has some odd ideas sometimes but this change appears to be rather different than what some want.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Deport where?

Tower Hamlets?

 

[Mr D]

Tower Hamlets?

Not sure deporting people to Tower Hamlets resolves much.

 

[Cobby]

Not sure which cleric radicalised him at the Dog and Bone. He was a bit rubbish when you compare the effectiveness of the other drivers from who he must have taken the idea from.

Yeah, he's white and English, just a lone wolf with mental issues, right? Not a terrorist acting upon extremist propaganda like *whispers* those lot...

 

[Clodbuster]

Yeah, he's white and English, just a lone wolf with mental issues, right? Not a terrorist acting upon extremist propaganda like *whispers* those lot...

Muppet.

 

[quikshop]

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of Capitalism if you think it has any form of social conscience.

The lack of intellectual rigour to some of your trolling is truly bemusing

But the truth outs at last. We've all known but were too polite to say it, but to debate with a Trotski is akin to debating with a Jehovah Witness... and those of us who took part in the God debate, what must still be the longest debate on this and probably most other forums will remember the blind refusal of our Witness to accept anything other than what he'd been indoctrinated with. It was both a constant frustration and source of amusement.

Go and read about Nordic Capitalism. Personally I think that model is too far removed from our Anglo-Saxon democracy but a move in that direction is long overdue.

 

[Clinton]

Muppet.

Sorry, I'm a bit lost here. Who are you talking about?

 

[The Byre]

I think that refers to anybody daft enough to get drawn into their tit-for-tat shouting match!

 

[Cobby]

Muppet.

I'm not sure what other reaction you were expecting to such a clichéd Daily Mail observation.

The lack of intellectual rigour to some of your trolling is truly bemusing

But the truth outs at last. We've all known but were too polite to say it, but to debate with a Trotski is akin to debating with a Jehovah Witness... and those of us who took part in the God debate, what must still be the longest debate on this and probably most other forums will remember the blind refusal of our Witness to accept anything other than what he'd been indoctrinated with. It was both a constant frustration and source of amusement.

Go and read about Nordic Capitalism. Personally I think that model is too far removed from our Anglo-Saxon democracy but a move in that direction is long overdue.

You open your post with an accusation of trolling and lack of intellectual rigour, then fall back on the lazy arguments that anyone who doesn't agree with you must be stupid and/or believe the exact opposite thing you do.

Well here's the kicker about your view on the Nordic models: I don't disagree with you. Capitalism, however, still has no social conscience.

 

[Clinton]

The Lord has spoken.

From the Book of Corbyn:

....
And they hearkened unto the word of Jeremy, and believed. For they said unto themselves, Lo, he bringeth unto us the desire of our hearts. He cometh by bicycle, with a helmet upon his head. And he eateth neither flesh nor fowl, according to the Scriptures. For man cannot live by bread alone, but hummus is quite another matter.

And the High Priestess saw all these things and was sore. And she gathered unto her the chief scribes and the Pharisees and said unto them, What the hell is going on?

And they said unto her...

May eternal peace be upon the markets and may perpetual light shine upon trade.

 

[MASSEY]

Funny how, with the exception of a suppression effect on un/low-skilled wages, none of what they said was provable. So weird, almost like they were hysterically lying to get themselves into power...

Anyway, of course the ukippers wouldn't change their minds, you can't reason people out of something they didn't reason themselves into. :/

My dad is a skilled tradesman. I was rewiring houses with him from about aged 11 helping run new cables. Since then, the average prices of domestic installation work haven't gone up all that much if at all, but the costs of the materials has and you're now competing against even more people. Why? Because labour flooded the country. This is a fact unfortunately.

A lot of people had to diversify because of this.

We're doing 20 odd k a month at the moment, so i don't feel the economy is on its arse any more, but for those who haven't diversified their wages probably haven't gone up in over a decade.

With regards to low skilled work, we already know employers were opting for euopeans over British. Why? Because of the stupid EU and the stupid labour government and all these loop holes.

The labour government aren't the good guys lol, they had Blair in power for a decade or more and he ruined the country.

Anyone who understands that would want to exit the eu.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

With regards to low skilled work, we already know employers were opting for euopeans over British. Why? Because of the stupid EU and the stupid labour government and all these loop holes.

The labour government aren't the good guys lol, they had Blair in power for a decade or more and he ruined the country.

Anyone who understands that would want to exit the eu.

I'd be interested to know how much of your work is in the EU?

 

[quikshop]

Well here's the kicker about your view on the Nordic models: I don't disagree with you. Capitalism, however, still has no social conscience.

You're just contradicting yourself now. The Nordic Socialist Democracy model with its free social provision of healthcare, child care, education etc etc on the back of high taxes all enabled by its destructive capitalism is probably the fairest way of marrying enterprise and innovation with social responsibility.

If you don't think the Nordic model has a social conscience then you don't understand the term.

If you do understand the term and still think their State does not deliver on its social responsibilities then you must be further left than I assumed. How is that socialist Utopia Venezuela getting on?

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Capitalism, however, still has no social conscience.

Only sole proprietor and family businesses can have a social conscience. Any company with shareholders must put the shareholders' interests first. By law they are not allowed a social conscience.

 

[Mr D]

Are the Nordic people under that model happy?

 

[Mr D]

Only sole proprietor and family businesses can have a social conscience. Any company with shareholders must put the shareholders' interests first. By law they are not allowed a social conscience.

Many do have a social conscience. Donating goods, staff time, money to causes. A few even have a charitable trust they donate some profits to in order to help communities.
Go in your local supermarket - likely displayed somewhere is the charity the company supports this year.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Many do have a social conscience. Donating goods, staff time, money to causes. A few even have a charitable trust they donate some profits to in order to help communities.
Go in your local supermarket - likely displayed somewhere is the charity the company supports this year.

Are you really that naive?

"A huge thank you to Tesco colleagues and customers who raised a phenomenal £10 million for our partnership in just 16 months," That is staff and customers, not Tesco.

Its just good PR.

"Tesco spent the fifth largest amount of money on marketing in the UK during the first ten months of 2008, Nielsen Media Research statistics published by the Telegraph reveal."

 

[Mr D]

Apparently I am that naïve. I also know of some of the big charity organisations receiving help from corporate donations. That's not staff and customers in case you were unaware.
And look on the Tesco website and you can see what they do as an organisation. You want to notify their board that they are acting illegally? Or perhaps the board are allowed to do more than what you know?


Our performance
Amount and percentage of pre-tax profits donated to charities and good causes
£ (million) %
2016/17 37 2.89
2015/16 34 3.61
2014/15 37 3.96


https://www.tescoplc.com/tesco-and-society/supporting-local-communities/

 

[Paul Norman]

As an aside, there are a number of slightly aggressive comments about people being left wing.

We live in a democracy, of sorts, and you are allowed to be left wing. And right wing. And even right out there to the extremes, should you choose.

Corbyn, of course, historically, sits way to the left of people such as Thatcher, and Blair, but is not, in fact massively left wing.

But the left wingedness of Corbyn, or the right wingedness of May, are not really the issue. The issue is how well our negotiations to exit the EU will go, and, of course, the answer to that will be a bit subjective.

Because we all want different outcomes to that, frankly.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

That's not staff and customers in case you were unaware.
And look on the Tesco website and you can see what they do as an organisation. You want to notify their board that they are acting illegally? Or perhaps the board are allowed to do more than what you know?

So if Tesco provide collection bins for food banks that counts as their contribution to charity????

I suggest you watch the film "The Corporation".

Storyline
Since the late 18th century American legal decision that the business corporation organizational model is legally a person, it has become a dominant economic, political and social force around the globe. This film takes an in-depth psychological examination of the organization model through various case studies. What the study illustrates is that in the its behaviour, this type of "person" typically acts like a dangerously destructive psychopath without conscience. Furthermore, we see the profound threat this psychopath has for our world and our future, but also how the people with courage, intelligence and determination can do to stop it

Or read the book.

 

[Paul Norman]

You're just contradicting yourself now.

If you do understand the term and still think their State does not deliver on its social responsibilities then you must be further left than I assumed. How is that socialist Utopia Venezuela getting on?

This kind of comment, for example. To my knowledge, Cobby is not arguing to replicate a Socialist state such as Venezuela. Neither is Mr Corbyn.

 

[Mr D]

atmosbob - yes they help with food banks. They have done for over a decade.
I've not claimed anything about the customers. I was quoting what the company does. You know, the social conscience the board has... that you said by law they could not have.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

I was quoting what the company does. You know, the social conscience the board has... that you said by law they could not have.

You are confusing social conscience with advertising. Tesco are not doing it for any other reason than to fool their customers they are good guys. The reality is that they screw their suppliers, spend more calories importing food from the far corners of the world than you can get from eating it. If Tesco is the best example you can find of companies behaving well I feel sorry for the rest.

 

[Mr D]

Wow, 37 million on advertising that few get to hear about and the return on that is seperate from their other paid advertising.
What does the company get for it's money?
Not you as a supporter.

Tesco is merely one company. If you look around at other large companies I am sure you can find others who do what you say they are not allowed to do.
There is a branch of fundraising known as corporate fundraising. Among other things they do get company boards to donate from company money to particular charities.

 

[MASSEY]

Corbyn would turn us into Venezuela. What was it he was saying a couple weeks ago? Any empty property should be broken into and the people made homeless from grenfal tower should be allowed to live there for free.

Man is an idiot.

 

[MASSEY]

Apparently I am that naïve. I also know of some of the big charity organisations receiving help from corporate donations. That's not staff and customers in case you were unaware.
And look on the Tesco website and you can see what they do as an organisation. You want to notify their board that they are acting illegally? Or perhaps the board are allowed to do more than what you know?


Our performance
Amount and percentage of pre-tax profits donated to charities and good causes
£ (million) %
2016/17 37 2.89
2015/16 34 3.61
2014/15 37 3.96


https://www.tescoplc.com/tesco-and-society/supporting-local-communities/

They don't do enough i think, but also, when they do donate, to say cancer research, that probably barely covers the wage bill of these 'charities' .

I had bad sun burn a couple weeks ago, i decided to order some things off amazon , the two hour delivery slot for groceries thing, now a company like that earns a fortune, why was it setting my order with a £2 tip ? Pre set.

Because, i think, they're greedy fackers and want to get away with paying low wages and make the customers subsidise or make the job seem more attractive.