Paranormal: Yes or No?

[Ashley_Price]

The only way that this "toy" could work to prove the Paranormal is for users to use the tip of their fingernail in the upside down position rather than resting their finger on the glass/planchet.

As I suggested above, while I don't believe something "paranormal" happens with a ouija board, I believe something DOES happen to people who are highly suggestive.

If you see THIS VIDEO on YouTube of "10 Ouija Board Possessions" (and yes, the narrator does have a strange voice - that's "his thing"), the girls at No. 10 and No. 9 are good examples. Assuming for a minute that they are not fake, that wasn't paranormal activity, or a demon trying to take possession of them, that looks more like they are having a seizure or fit, possibly brought on by a combination of nerves, excitement, fear, adrenaline, etc. Of course, we don't know their background, they might be susceptible to similar attacks, but this one happened to be while they were using a ouija board and being filmed.

 

[Ashley_Price]

It's funny how often in the videos on YouTube the "action" happens behind closed doors.

So, THIS CLIP has a husband and wife arguing, him outside the bathroom and her within. Suddenly the door slams shut and when he opens it she is suspended from high up on the wall. The door slams again and when he opens it a few seconds later she appears to be comatose in the bath.

But isn't the closed door just like the magician's screen or curtain, used to hide the "magic"? And as soon as the picture goes dark could there not have been an edit while they set up the next "scene"?

One of the silliest examples of supposed paranormal activity.

 

[japancool]

I used to read Tarot cards. Cold reading isn't difficult.

I did once coincidentally predict someone's death (they died of cancer 6 months later) but it was almost certainly coincidence.

 

[Ashley_Price]

The only clip I have seen so far on YouTube that even came close to me thinking it could be genuine was THIS ONE. It's in a Manchester DSS office, supposedly at 3am and while at first everything seems calm, strange things soon start to happen.

Now, often in these videos the paranormal activity is in a business where people go (cafes, restaurants, video stores, etc.), so I think to myself they were happy to set up an elaborate hoax to get notoriety and have lots of people visiting. But a DSS office? Why?

I can think how this would have been set up, and I can only assume that it was done to perhaps play a prank on someone. I mean, why would you have lights on everywhere at 3am unless there were people in the building, and also why don't you see cameras in the rooms where the door handles are being rattled? (Although, I guess it may be that these are Ladies and Gents toilets, and so there's no cameras within them, in which case is very convenient that it was these that the "ghost" decided to concentrate on.)

 

[Newchodge]

Let's use Ockham's Razor: the simplest explanation is most likely to be true. Nothing on that clip could not be done by people playing a joke or trying to pretend they are poltergeists. So the simplest explanation is that it was done by people playing a joke or trying to pretend they are poltergeists. There is no need for further explanation based on that clip.

 

[japancool]

Oh heck, it's convenient that we can't clearly see under the desks from which the chairs are being pushed.

 

[Ashley_Price]

Oh heck, it's convenient that we can't clearly see under the desks from which the chairs are being pushed.

Agree, but what is strange is, if they were just pushed, the seats of the chair wouldn't move back and forth while in motion. And for the ones that travel quite a distance, their pace seem relatively even - not fast at the start from the hard shove it would have taken to get them to travel that distance.

My thought is they were actually pulled using good ol' fishing line.

 

[japancool]

Agree, but what is strange is, if they were just pushed, the seats of the chair wouldn't move back and forth while in motion. And for the ones that travel quite a distance, their pace seem relatively even - not fast at the start from the hard shove it would have taken to get them to travel that distance.

My thought is they were actually pulled using good ol' fishing line.

It doesn't look that way to me - it seems like the chairs are definitely slowing down as you would expect. As for the motion of the seats, they're not moving back and forward - they just rotate in one direction, as you would expect if they're pushed off centre, as the weight is unevenly distributed. They only move in the other direction when the chair bumps into something.

Now if the chair suddenly changed direction without hitting anything, or started moving slowly and accelerated, or moved from somewhere that didn't have any convenient hiding places from which to push it, I'd be more curious.

 

[The Byre]

Now if the chair suddenly changed direction without hitting anything, or started moving slowly and accelerated, or moved from somewhere that didn't have any convenient hiding places from which to push it, I'd be more curious.

Ordinary video editing SW allows you to remove whole objects, such as people, string, sticks or anything else come to that.

The DSS footage is a very obvious hoax, because the scenes are of unequal length, showing that it was not made by time switching, but edited and also the beginnings of scenes (which possibly had bits in them that needed to not be shown) were edited out.

 

[japancool]

Ordinary video editing SW allows you to remove whole objects, such as people, string, sticks or anything else come to that.

Sure, but that can be detected. It's easier just to edit out the bit where the hand pushing the chair is visible.

 

[The Byre]

Sure, but that can be detected. It's easier just to edit out the bit where the hand pushing the chair is visible.

Obviously, that is what was done in the DSS video - but you cannot detect object removal. Otherwise you would see it and/or detect it in every modern action movie and they are not grotty surveillance footage, but 4K or above. It is the same SW!

 

[cjd]

The only evidence for dogs smelling ability was based on what was observed, nothing more,

The entirity of science is based on observation. That's how it knows that what it's testing is real and not imaginary.

until science proved how and why they have greater ability no one knee the degree of it, or even if it was more advanced or just more sensitive to certain aroma.

Knowing how a dog's sense of smells works is not necessary to prove that it exists - all we need to know is that it can reliably smell things that we can't. The how and the why simply gives us more information about the mechanism. We can demonstrate it's existence without understanding anything about how it works.

No paranormal activity has every been demonstrated or reliably observed.

Now just because something isn't yet proven doesn't mean it doesn't exist

The total lack of evidence of something existing is a very big clue that's telling us that it doesn't exist. It's a very difficult argument to sustain that just because we can't see, touch, feel, hear, taste something or detect it using all the modern instruments at science's disposal that it exists anyway.

What is the difference between a pink unicorn that can't be detected by any person or device and no pink unicorn at all?

We only use a fraction of our brains capacity,

It's a total myth that we only use a fraction of our brain

The 10 percent of the brain myth is a widely perpetuated urban legend that most or all humans only use 10 percent (or some other small percentage) of their brains. It has been misattributed to many people, including Albert Einstein.[1] By extrapolation, it is suggested that a person may harness this unused potential and increase intelligence.

The popular notion that large parts of the brain remain unused, and could subsequently be "activated", rests in popular folklore and not science.

 

[Newchodge]

The entirity of science is based on observation. That's how it knows that what it's testing is real and not imaginary.



Knowing how a dog's sense of smells works is not necessary to prove that it exists - all we need to know is that it can reliably smell things that we can't. The how and the why simply gives us more information about the mechanism. We can demonstrate it's existence without understanding anything about how it works.

No paranormal activity has every been demonstrated or reliably observed.



The total lack of evidence of something existing is a very big clue that's telling us that it doesn't exist. It's a very difficult argument to sustain that just because we can't see, touch, feel, hear, taste something or detect it using all the modern instruments at science's disposal that it exists anyway.

What is the difference between a pink unicorn that can't be detected by any person or device and no pink unicorn at all?



It's a total myth that we only use a fraction of our brain

@cjd I agree with nearly every word of this, but I think it is fair to say that there are many people who don't use more than a fraction of their brain.

 

[japancool]

Obviously, that is what was done in the DSS video - but you cannot detect object removal. Otherwise you would see it and/or detect it in every modern action movie and they are not grotty surveillance footage, but 4K or above. It is the same SW!

You can, but not by eye. There are analysis tools that can do it, to a degree of certainty.

 

[The Byre]

And they are?

 

[japancool]

The same tools that can detect errors in still images and identify modified images for copyright and police chasing pedophiles.

Here's one.
http://www.getghiro.org/

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Sway Tower was built by a spirituilist with advice from Sir Christoher Wren in a seance.

 

[cjd]

The problem is, of course, is there is no satisfactory way to prove something one way or the other.

Of course there is; anything that has an affect in the 'real' world can be detected. These so called paranormal effects are causing real world events - moving things, appearing and disappearing, making noises....whatever. They are supposedly being detected by eyes and ears which are simply instruments for detecting sound and light waves. There's nothing supernatural about those. If these events were occurring at the rate these believers say they are, we'd have stacks of real proof by now.

Yes, of course science can explain how things "can" or "cannot" work, but who is to say the way science explains something means that's the ONLY way it can happen with our current knowledge? There was a time when it was believed light was emitted outwards from our eyes.

These are not arguments, they're just ad hoc imaginings.

And in recent days there has been the idea that space could be a hologram - and that works mathematically (although even the scientists can't quite envisage it).

This has nothing to do with the paranormal has it?

We are discovering things all the time, so - even as a sceptic - who is to say that we won't find in years to come there is "provable" evidence for ghosts and the paranormal?

No one can - that's the point. But it's not the 16th century, we now have this thing called science and a good understanding of how our universe works. The paranormal does not fit into that model in any way shape or form - in fact it overturns it entirely. Nothing else would work if the paranormal existed; it defies all sorts of laws.

If this thing existed we would now know all about it - apparently two thirds of the world's people believe it - these things can't be both hidden AND visible. It's daft.

 

[Reba]

Of course there is; anything that has an affect in the 'real' world can be detected. These so called paranormal effects are causing real world events - moving things, appearing and disappearing, making noises....whatever. They are supposedly being detected by eyes and ears which are simply instruments for detecting sound and light waves. There's nothing supernatural about those. If these events were occurring at the rate these believers say they are, we'd have stacks of real proof by now.



These are not arguments, they're just ad hoc imaginings.



This has nothing to do with the paranormal has it?



No one can - that's the point. But it's not the 16th century, we now have this thing called science and a good understanding of how our universe works. The paranormal does not fit into that model in any way shape or form - in fact it overturns it entirely. Nothing else would work if the paranormal existed; it defies all sorts of laws.

If this thing existed we would now know all about it - apparently two thirds of the world's people believe it - these things can't be both hidden AND visible. It's daft.

Hmmmmm, we didn't knoe Mars, Venus etc was there until we had the technology to see them. We still don't know when, where or if the universe ends and what's there, we can only observe so far into space, doesn't mean because we can't see of observe anything further nothing is there.

Antimatter was much debated because there was no physical, or other evidence it exists. With the advancement of technology we can not only prove it we can produce it.

 

[STDFR33]

People that dismiss the idea completely remind me of those that wouldn't believe the world was round,and would have branded Aristotle the crazy bloke down the road.

 

[Newchodge]

It seems to me to be the same thing as religious faith. If it makes people feel better to believe in it, then get on with it, unless you try to control or influence others by it. In which case you are a charlatan.

 

[japancool]

Hmmmmm, we didn't knoe Mars, Venus etc was there until we had the technology to see them. We still don't know when, where or if the universe ends and what's there, we can only observe so far into space, doesn't mean because we can't see of observe anything further nothing is there.

Mars and Venus can be seen with the naked eye so have been known about since antiquity. We didn't know about Neptune but it was predicted through mathematics. That's observation and science right at work there.

As for the universe - the observable universe is the sum total of what we are able to observe. Beyond that, something may exist, something may not but there is no way for us to tell and as far as we are concerned, it is the same as if those things don't exist. Relativity tells us that there are objects that we will NEVER be able to observe. To us, they may as well be pink unicorns.

The scientific method is based observability, falsifiability and repeatability. The paranormal fails on falsifiability and repeatability. Some people might argue that it can be observed, but never in such a way that is unequivocal. And it is never repeatable. Ever. Magic spells may "work" once but are never reliably repeatable. Ghosts never seem to appear with regularity when you want them to. No one has ever been able to reliably and repeatedly predict the symbols on ESP cards beyond statistical probability.

 

[cjd]

Hmmmmm, we didn't knoe Mars, Venus etc was there until we had the technology to see them.

It's a bad example because both Venus and Mars are visible with the naked eye. But I think your point is that there are planets that are not visible without equipment. That's true, but they do exist and by existing they have effects on other things in the real world. Most of the planets we find are detected not by direct observation but by finding differences in the orbits of other objects caused by their gravitational influence.

The point is that things that have real effects in our world can be easily detected. The only way we have reports from people about the paranormal is because they say they saw or heard them. Light and sound is easily detected. This is not something happening in far distant universes - apparently it's here and it's everywhere. Except of course it isn't.

Antimatter was much debated because there was no physical, or other evidence it exists. With the advancement of technology we can not only prove it we can produce it.

But there was a scientific theory that predicted it! It was derived by observation of the real world.
No such thing as the paranormal exists - science rejects it as outside everything it knows and doesn't know. It breaks fundamental laws. Thermodynamics for one.

Not only does the paranormal evidentially not exist; it actually can't exist.

 

[sirearl]

Bit ambiguous on the paranormal.

2 questions I need answering.

Why are we here?

How did Trump get elected.?

 

[cjd]

Why are we here?

There's no why, or any reason why there should be.

How did Trump get elected.?

Because there's a lot of people prepared to believe absolutely anything.

 

[Reba]

It's a bad example because both Venus and Mars are visible with the naked eye. But I think your point is that there are planets that are not visible without equipment. That's true, but they do exist and by existing they have effects on other things in the real world. Most of the planets we find are detected not by direct observation but by finding differences in the orbits of other objects caused by their gravitational influence.

The point is that things that have real effects in our world can be easily detected. The only way we have reports from people about the paranormal is because they say they saw or heard them. Light and sound is easily detected. This is not something happening in far distant universes - apparently it's here and it's everywhere. Except of course it isn't.



But there was a scientific theory that predicted it! It was derived by observation of the real world.
No such thing as the paranormal exists - science rejects it as outside everything it knows and doesn't know. It breaks fundamental laws. Thermodynamics for one.

Not only does the paranormal evidentially not exist; it actually can't exist.

But that's the whole point, at the time of debating if antimatter exists or not, on your theory you would have said it doesn't because there was no actual evidence of it, just some "gullible" people that thought it might. You'd have been wrong.

Science once rejected the possibility of landing on the moon, now we're on the way to Mars. You can't say the paranormal doesn't exist just because of lack of evidence. Far more people (by that I mean millions over centuries) have reported paranormal experience than ever thought antimatter was a reality.

Don't close your mind and think we know everything, we don't by an inmeseriable amount.

With forward thinking people who knows what the human race might become (ok I might have taken, or at the least lifted, that last part from a sci-fi film or two!)

 

[cjd]

But that's the whole point, at the time of debating if antimatter exists or not, on your theory you would have said it doesn't because there was no actual evidence of it, just some "gullible" people that thought it might. You'd have been wrong.

No, no, no!

Anti-matter was proposed by theortical physicists based on their work on understanding the origins of the universe. The theory preceded the observation. It's the way science works. There was no-one running around claiming to have seen an anti-matter - if there had been it would have been a lot easier.

It's not just that science is saying that the paranormal doesn't exists, it's saying that it can't possibly exist given our understanding of how the universe works. And that's not just because it doesn't yet know, it's because existing tried, tested and proven explanations could not work if these silly stories were true. Literally nothing in our world would work.

Far more people (by that I mean millions over centuries) have reported paranormal experience than ever thought antimatter was a reality.

Exactly! Millions of people reporting very, very simple things like moving tables, bleeding statues, headless bodies walking etc etc etc but not one example of any of these has ever been successfully confirmed. But compared to discovering the Higgs Boson it should be child's play. These things would impact on our world if they were true - that's the only way people could 'see' or 'hear' them. But they don't.

With forward thinking people who knows what the human race might become (ok I might have taken, or at the least lifted, that last part from a sci-fi film or two!)

Twaddle!

 

[Newchodge]

The part I find fascinating is that people only ever report things that are foretold by religion - the devil - the madonna - the christ - but these things are never seen in non-christian areas. There they see things foretold by their own religion. Call me sceptical, but I wonder if there is a reason for that?

 

[sirearl]

There's no why, or any reason why there should be.


.

Thats not how human brains work,they want to know the how why and where of everything.

 

[cjd]

Thats not how human brains work,they want to know the how why and where of everything.

Doesn't matter how human brains work, they're simply cells evolved to survive on this insignificant little planet. Everything we know about life here tells us that it's just a happy accident. You might as well ask why are there gamma rays, quarks or rocks.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

My personal opinion on the whole James Randi malarky is pretty much... as is.

I.E. We are taught at school about Religion, Christianity - for instance... we are taught by adults that there is no such thing as Ghosts - yet from an early age I knew there was something there, whether I could prove it to someone or not is a different matter entirely.

James Randi who offered a prize of US$1,000,000 to eligible applicants who could demonstrate evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event under test conditions agreed to by both parties did so knowing that it could never be done...

There are 1000's of images online, 1000's of possible evidence of the paranormal yet human belief, teachings in schools etc makes us disbelieve without even realising it... Even myself, for the best part of 10 years disregarded everything that I saw and everything that I felt whenever I was in the presence of something that at an early age couldn't fathom.

I do readings for people (I call it connecting) - that I have never met before in my life - people that hear about what I do immediately would accuse me of cold reading - but you have to be there to understand that I couldn't possibly cold read... I'm Dyslexic, dyspraxic and I have dyscalculia - everything I do, is over and over again... i.e. it can take me 10 minutes just to type a short paragraph like this... if using words that I can't "see". I am also on the Autistic spectrum by way of I can't bond well with people, I never look people in the eye... I have a trick for that people think I'm looking at them... but I'm actually looking into the canthus

When I connect with people as said previously, I've never met them before... I refuse to connect with people I know or have spoken with at any point in my life... Yet I can tell them things from their past that only they would know... example: My now Landlord - who 7 years ago I had never met before was my English Teacher at Adult college - (Had to get level 3 in customer service, therefore had to re-sit English and Mathematics)... part of the "course-work" was to give a 5 minute introduction of myself and something that I was interested in... obviously I went for the Paranormal... My 5 minute introduction ended up being about 45 minutes, everyone wanted to know what I could see in themselves...

I told each and everyone one of them something that only they would have known... something that I, never meeting them before would never know...

1. Lass had only just got out of hospital within the last week - due to vomiting.

2. Chap had just ended an affair with an older woman.

3. Older woman had just been told she had cancer two days previously.

4. The (NOW) Landlord had an incident when he was younger that involved lots of water and a lot of money.

Things I could never have known... but were all true.... question is... do you believe it?

 

[MikeJ]

Or things Derren Brown does, and admits has nothing to do with the paranormal.

 

[The Byre]

The same tools that can detect errors in still images and identify modified images for copyright and police chasing pedophiles.

Here's one.
http://www.getghiro.org/

That SW only works if the changes made are extremely crude and has elements taken from another image, or the JPG pixel blocks have been broken. It does not work for uncompressed images or footage.

 

[japancool]

That SW only works if the changes made are extremely crude and has elements taken from another image, or the JPG pixel blocks have been broken. It does not work for uncompressed images or footage.

Yes it does. Forensic image analysis works with high res images and footage to a standard acceptable in court.

 

[Ashley_Price]

Doesn't matter how human brains work, they're simply cells evolved to survive on this insignificant little planet.

This planet is pretty significant to us.

 

[The Byre]

Yes it does. Forensic image analysis works with high res images and footage to a standard acceptable in court.

Hi-res and uncompressed are two completely different things. SW like Ghiro and others trace and register changes in the compression artefacts. It also can trace differences in lighting levels and colour profiles.

That works fine for some goof-ball paedophile beavering away on a kiddie-porn pic in Photoshop, using JPG images, or some AVI footage file. It cannot work for 'raw' image or footage data, as there are no compression artefacts - it is not compressed yet!

Forensics can prove that an image or a sound was manipulated. It can never prove that an image or sound was not manipulated. That is mathematically impossible!

 

[webgeek]

The scientific method is based observability, falsifiability and repeatability.

Ever read "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions"? Kuhn is brilliant.

As he so eloquently points out, at every point in our history, we've held "scientific" beliefs that, following discovery of new information forms a revolution which ousts those old beliefs as poppycock and which then puts forth a new set of beliefs we hold on to - until we rinse lather repeat.

Everyone thought Ptolemy had it figured out, until Copernicus.
Everyone thought Copernicus had it figured out, until Galileo.
Everyone thought Galileo had it figured out, until Kepler.
Everyone thought Kepler had it figured out, until Newton.
Einstein...
Quantum...
next???

At every point in time scientific beliefs were founded in fiction, later disproven as being ludicrous, for good reason.

Look back at any of them now and you'd think they were created by some cro-magnon man.

The 'scientific' beliefs of today are held by modern cro-magnons.

Discounting the beliefs of others, when we're a bunch of cro-magnons, is guaranteed to be proven ludicrous by the cro-magnons of the future.

Accept the ridiculous beliefs of others, lest the future world be tied to your ridiculous beliefs of today.

 

[cjd]

This planet is pretty significant to us.

“Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the western spiral arm of the Galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this at a distance of roughly ninety-two million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue green planet whose ape-descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea.”

The late, great Douglas Adams

 

[cjd]

James Randi who offered a prize of US$1,000,000 to eligible applicants who could demonstrate evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event under test conditions agreed to by both parties did so knowing that it could never be done...

Sure, he knew it could never be done and it's never been done despite many attempts by people who believed they could do it. Conclusion: it can't be done because it doesnt exist.

What other non-spurious reason can there be?

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Sure, he knew it could never be done and it's never been done despite many attempts by people who believed they could do it. Conclusion: it can't be done because it doesnt exist.

What other non-spurious reason can there be?

The reason I said it can never be done is because Photographs - video's etc can never be used as actual evidence simply because of how technology has evolved in the last 100 years. Even the most compelling evidence has been scrutinised and the photographer has been accused of "faking it"... The Vatican holds 1000's of images and files of evidence which will never been seen again, simply because "Religion states that there is no such thing"... if this is the case why do they have Demonologists? Why do they claim everything of a Paranormal nature to be the work of "The Devil"... a Supernatural being?

When I provide my services, we go in with the knowledge of what the client has told us has happened... the first thing that we always stress to the client is WE BELIEVE YOU.

However, what we also say is that we believe that something has happened, whether it's of a Paranormal nature or not that is what we're here to do, give support and assure the client that they're safe... unless of course their not... read further.

Majority of the time... the client has had something happen that they can't explain... it scares them and they "assume" it's of a Paranormal Nature. What is usually the case is that it's issues with gas pipes, electrical wiring, radiators, water pipes... bad general upkeep of a property unfortunately

Boilers can be one of the main culprits. For instance... someone has a new boiler installed and the radiators were never earthed in the first instance... so a new boiler generates more electricity, which runs through metal pipes... causing EMF (Electro-Magnetic Field) which can cause health issues, paranoia, vomiting etc etc - people don't understand that this is the issue, so automatically it's a GHOST!

When we say "WE BELIEVE YOU" we believe that the client has had something happen that they believe to be Paranormal or simply can't explain... We believe that they've had something happen to them... doesn't mean that we believe that it's of a paranormal nature... simply because we were not present at the time therefore we can only go off their judgement of what happened and their experience during the event.

--

Let's say just for arguments sake... something happened to you tonight, something that you couldn't explain and it scared you whitless... for example... you took a photo of your family and your dead Dad was stood in the background... clear as day... You yourself a sound-minded person would probably dismiss what happened as you being daft? (I dunno I'm guessing here )

You probably would never follow it up with even a second thought... But, let's just say you did... you'd probably speculate, rationalise and come to the conclusion that what it was was [X]. Yet, a couple of days later you may re-think your rationalism and conclusion and consider the possibility that something un-natural had just happened... where do you go from there?

Do you ignore it completely or would you look into it deeper? This is what we do... we don't claim that everything is Paranormal... we investigate and give our findings... as above.

Because we find it intriguing and have an open mind on possibilities after we've looked at the facts, does that really make us liars, fraudsters or hacks? Really?