Europe should we stay in or get out?

[Employment Law Clinic]

However,.


If the political class allows the current decision to be overturned because it was 'wrong' or 'difficult' or whatever, there should be riots on every street of our country.

While I respect many of your posts Cyndy, I strongly disagree with this sentiment.


As far as I’ve seen, the only MP to suggest parliament shouldn’t endorse the referendum is David Lammy, MP for Tottenham – where the most recent riots started.


I recall walking into the last riots before they made the news – or even developed into what they became – seeing one police car on fire, crowds amassed, and throwing anything they could lay their hands on. Sky News was the first I found to break the story, an hour or so after I passed through the scene, but at the time I had no idea what was going on. In the days following, nearly all my local traders not only refused to open, but had to pay to board up their windows. It wasn’t a nice thing at all to live through, but the local community really got on with it, even with nerves frayed about when or where the next flash riot would appear. There should never be anything like that again, regardless of what parliament – our elected and accountable representatives decide.


I have no objection to the decisions that parliament takes in this matter, and if you or I think they’re wrong, you or I have the freedom to petition, or march, or protest orderly.


But I also respect the idea that parliament has previously suggested if I you or I riot, it wouldn’t be acceptable. There should NOT be riots on our streets, regardless.



Karl Limpert

 

[Matt1959]

isnt the thing that caught them all out being Cameron resigning? he never indicated he would prior

 

[Newchodge]

While I respect many of your posts Cyndy, I strongly disagree with this sentiment.


As far as I’ve seen, the only MP to suggest parliament shouldn’t endorse the referendum is David Lammy, MP for Tottenham – where the most recent riots started.


I recall walking into the last riots before they made the news – or even developed into what they became – seeing one police car on fire, crowds amassed, and throwing anything they could lay their hands on. Sky News was the first I found to break the story, an hour or so after I passed through the scene, but at the time I had no idea what was going on. In the days following, nearly all my local traders not only refused to open, but had to pay to board up their windows. It wasn’t a nice thing at all to live through, but the local community really got on with it, even with nerves frayed about when or where the next flash riot would appear. There should never be anything like that again, regardless of what parliament – our elected and accountable representatives decide.


I have no objection to the decisions that parliament takes in this matter, and if you or I think they’re wrong, you or I have the freedom to petition, or march, or protest orderly.


But I also respect the idea that parliament has previously suggested if I you or I riot, it wouldn’t be acceptable. There should NOT be riots on our streets, regardless.



Karl Limpert

OK

I was in a burger bar in Tottenham in 1985. I do not suggest rioting easily. In fact I do not suggest it at all. But the political class cannot ignore the people forever without consequence.

 

[cjd]

It also ignores the fact that Europe is going to force our hand and say that the UK has started the process next week when Cameron informs them of the UK's decision. If they feel they need to, they will.

A long shot is that the EU decides to change itself first. No chance.

 

[Newchodge]

isnt the thing that caught them all out being Cameron resigning? he never indicated he would prior

It shouldn't have caught them out. He has campaigned throughout to stay in. Do you think he could have any credibility negotiating the exit?

I think that what caught them out was, actually, the result. They never expected it.

 

[Matt1959]

I agree it should not have caught them out but still think it has. I didnt expect Cameron to resign in the face of a leave vote but maybe with hindsight I can see why he has. The leave camp not expecting him to resign explains their apparent unease. For them to vote for leave and not be prepared for a result in their favour seems a bit naive to me!

 

[cjd]

We tend to forget that this is not 'all about us'.

Our exit is very damaging to the EU (and for that matter the entire world markets were destabilised). France, Spain and Italy's markets crashed further than ours. Germany is looking at having to fund yet another revenue gap. All western states are suffering the immigration problem and right wings in several EU countries are now pressing for similar referenda.The EU needs to protect itself and it will, it's a dangerous time politically and economically.

That's without the terrorism stuff.

 

[sirearl]

The foxhunters are not happy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629324

 

[MBE1]

Jeremy Corbyn sacks Hilary Benn to try and stop a leadership challenge.

 

[ShirleyM]

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

Does it make sense? Are all our politicians so stupid as to not to consider Leave would win?

The Guardian is the most pro-EU rag in existence. I think we need to be very wary of anything printed there, whether the source is the journalists or the readers.

 

[Ian J]

isnt the thing that caught them all out being Cameron resigning? he never indicated he would prior

In fact when the campaigning kicked off he indicated that he would take the country forward whichever way the people voted but as the campaign got dirtier and dirtier with him (and Osborne) at the head his position became untenable once he ended up on the losing side.

It's a shame as he is probably still the best man for the job and whilst I voted to leave it was on the basis that Cameron would lead the exit as he said he would

 

[Ian J]

<snip>

Whether the politicians & organisations that campaigned for either vote knew what either result might mean, I'm not so sure, but it seems that legally we may not be able to dictate or delay the timing of our exit as we intended, and I don't think that was allowed for - perhaps they were clueless.

I think that many of the potential difficulties that have arisen in the last couple of days have been political posturing amidst the sound of the jerking of knees.

Already Angela Merkel has publically stated that "there is no need to be nasty" and that exit negotiations shouldn't be carried out in such a way to make it as difficult as possible to leave as a warning to other countries. Ms Merkel is a powerful voice within the EC and hopefully others will listen to her

 

[Ian J]

While I agree with much of what you say, it doesn't explain the situation in the north east, where I live.

There are VERY few immigrants. There is also very little money and no choice for most of the low paid and disadvantaged. There is very little hope for an improved future. I think the people in this region voted more to say 'piss off the establishment' than really about immigration.

I was listening to a Geordie on the radio a couple of weeks ago who claimed that the North East was badly hit by immigrant labour but on a project basis by handing out contracts to overseas firms who were able to pay labour rates less than our minimum wage to their immigrant labour force by utilizing an EC law that allowed overseas contractors to pay the minimum wage in the country that the migrant labour force lived. He further claimed that the Tyne Tunnel Two was built on the cheap using foreign labour and this loophole which is North Easterners were so keen on getting out of the EC

Jeremy Corbyn brought up this loophole in Prime Ministers Question Time a couple of months ago and it caught out most of the politicians and analysts including Andrew Neill and his guests on The Daily Politics who appeared to know nothing about it.

 

[ShirleyM]

WHY THE HELL DID THEY DO IT?

They had to give the people a voice and a choice. We were taken into a political union without the agreement of the people. That is NOT democracy, and democracy and sovereignty is what the people want, above all else.

The political class are afraid of Farage, and rightfully so. He is the only one batting for the working class these days. The Tories wanted control of the Leave campaign and managed to get it. Even now, they are trying to squeeze Farage out.

 

[KM-Tiger]

That is NOT democracy, and democracy and sovereignty is what the people want, above all else.

A poll is showing that democracy and sovereignty was the biggest issue for leave voters, not immigration.

Certainly true in my case, and I've had to wait 40 years to finally put right the mistake I made in 1975.

 

[Newchodge]

I was listening to a Geordie on the radio a couple of weeks ago who claimed that the North East was badly hit by immigrant labour but on a project basis by handing out contracts to overseas firms who were able to pay labour rates less than our minimum wage to their immigrant labour force by utilizing an EC law that allowed overseas contractors to pay the minimum wage in the country that the migrant labour force lived. He further claimed that the Tyne Tunnel Two was built on the cheap using foreign labour and this loophole which is North Easterners were so keen on getting out of the EC

Jeremy Corbyn brought up this loophole in Prime Ministers Question Time a couple of months ago and it caught out most of the politicians and analysts including Andrew Neill and his guests on The Daily Politics who appeared to know nothing about it.

I hadn't heard about it, and I thought I knew employment law. However I would argue that is a very small percentage of the local population - there weren't thousands of people contracting on Tyne Tunnel 2. If this were correct there would still be a lot of migrant workers in the north east on different projects, and there just aren't. Feeling too lazy to look up the figures, but I think the migrant population for the north est is around 1.6%.

EDIT: Actually, now I think about it, paying less than minimum wage in those circumstances does make sense. Back in the 70's I was employed by Ever Ready batteries and sent to work in the Netherlands for a year. I was paid my normal salary plus expenses - the 4 of us doing this stayed in an hotel and flew home every weekend. None of us expected to be paid the same salaries as the Dutch colleagues we were working alongside. If overseas contractors employ people in their own countries and them send them to staff projects in this country it would be the same thing. Not actually a loophole.

 

[Ian J]

A poll is showing that democracy and sovereignty was the biggest issue for leave voters, not immigration.

Certainly true in my case, and I've had to wait 40 years to finally put right the mistake I made in 1975.

Why did you make a mistake in 1975 as that referendum was to ask if we wanted to remain members of the European Economic Community which was a far different animal to that which we have today

 

[Newchodge]

They had to give the people a voice and a choice. We were taken into a political union without the agreement of the people. That is NOT democracy, and democracy and sovereignty is what the people want, above all else.

The political class are afraid of Farage, and rightfully so. He is the only one batting for the working class these days. The Tories wanted control of the Leave campaign and managed to get it. Even now, they are trying to squeeze Farage out.

That may have been the reason the referendum was held, but I was asking why Johnson and Gove campaigned in the way that they did.

 

[ShirleyM]

Please watch this video. This guy from the USA understands the UK people better than most of our own politicians.

http://therightscoop.com/david-came...n-explains-the-history-leading-to-the-brexit/

 

[Cobby]

Probably about as many people that voted to remain without being in possession of all the facts but voted for the status quo to save the hassle of changing.

You're likely way off with the comparable numbers but it's a big demographic that is being overlooked.

 

[rik_rs]

I cannot believe there are some people coming out today saying they regret their vote and "didn't think it would actually happen".

Utterly unbelievable.

In fact that's not true, it's a pantomime, except, maybe, for a very small minority of old ladies with dementia.
British people it's not so stupid as depicted from the lobby of tabloids, BBC in primis.

Take a look here
https://www.google.com/search?q=brexit+regret
How many newspapers and websites are ridiculing UK with such bul....it?!!

This is a new attack to democracy.
They try to revert the vote.
Basically the new try is on the line: "Sorry, British people is stupid so let's give it another try because the first one was only to warm up the brain".
If I were you I would ban these tablois from your lives. All of those propaganding this s..t.

Moreover, there is a massive terroristic campaign on OBVIOUS THINGS that any brexiter knew from start... e.g. a weaker pound (at least for a while, then it will become even stronger), instability (obviously... in the financial/economic world a simple news can shut down a country, so the brexit it's going even too well the way it is), etc.

By the way Junker told BBC 5 Live yesterday that they know UK are strong and stable, brexit or not.

In Italy, where the journalists are 100% slave of the system and paid to brainwash people in a way that Stalin and Mao would be proud of, I've read so massive bul..hit that I regret still having italian citizenship!!! E.g. in a newspaper they have already publish the new fees for italians who want to go to Oxford University... obviously much higher (I don't remember but was something like 4000 pounds more). Where the hell they got such figures after few hours from the brexit?!!! If UK journalists treat british people like idiots, in Italy they treat italians like zombies!

In a word, the message is: REPENT AND GOD WILL RECALL THE LOCUSTS!

This is another clear sign that the brexit is right!
STOP BULLING!!!
Stop false propaganda you stupid enslaved tabloids!
People with a working brain +
value for freedom over mere profit +
courage like their grand fathers dead in war =
-----------------------------------------------
Brexit, proud, positive and right.

People have decided. Stop bulling!
And they have decided absolutely right because NOTHING COMPARES WITH FREEDOM.

So let's stop with false propaganda and go on with projects.

I want to highlight that even the pro-remain tabloids shows that Eu membership cost to the UK £18 million a day (including what we get back, otherwise would be 55 million/day).
But Norway pays only £245m/Year that is 0.67M/day
So where is the deal? In or out?

As reported on the Telegraph:
The thinktank Open Europe estimates that the UK would pay 94% of its current costs (£31.4bn annually) if it left the EU but adopted a Norway-type arrangement.

So let's stop complaining with the stupid show off of old ladies regretting the brexit and let's go on.
In a wink the UK will be as stronger than ever. It's only a matter of months... hoping the REAL brexit happens and in a short time.

 

[MBE1]

Please watch this video. This guy from the USA understands the UK people better than most of our own politicians.

http://therightscoop.com/david-came...n-explains-the-history-leading-to-the-brexit/

Have to say, this former USA ambassador understands the vote better than our own politicians, not seeing the wood for the trees comes to mind.

 

[rik_rs]

Already Angela Merkel has publically stated that "there is no need to be nasty" and that exit negotiations shouldn't be carried out in such a way to make it as difficult as possible to leave as a warning to other countries. Ms Merkel is a powerful voice within the EC and hopefully others will listen to her

Lord Darth Merkel!
Another sign that leaving is the right choice.
Those are the words of a Gestapo nostalgic person.

 

[Cobby]

Countries over the world are asking for UK trade deals, and it's only day one. We've still lots of obstacles to overcome, but the future is looking bright.

No they aren't. We have plenty of obstacles and it's the darkest the UK has looked in the last 50 years.

That's life. It would be the same lack of certainty within the EU. The difference is, we never get a choice over the laws chosen, and passed, by the EU. In the UK we get to choose a party based on their manifesto. If the government doesn't meet it's manifesto promises it has to explain why, or never be trusted again. That system still exists for now, but will become increasingly redundant if we are forced to stay in the EU against our will.

Literally every sentence in this post is wrong.

No it won't take years. We have the WTO to fall back on. Not perfect I know, but a damn sight better than the EU trade scam. What do think would happen if another trading bloc says you can join, but we demand a high membership fee, political rule and free movement of people. The EU is just a protection racket like the Mafia.

Whenever you post about this, buried in amongst all your hysterical anti-EU hyperbole, you demonstrate no understanding that one of the fundamental concepts of negotiating is making concessions.

 

[Cobby]

If it had been a remain vote, I would have respected that and got on with life.

No you wouldn't. The anger and hatred driving most of the Leave camp wouldn't just vanish. The Leave camp's arguments about bureaucracy and the EU being anti-democratic weren't based on an actual understanding of democracy, simply an unhappiness at not getting their own way. That wouldn't have vanished and even towards the end the Leave camp were laying the foundations to fight their way to their result - Farage demanding that a 52/48 split wouldn't be an end to it, the conspiracies around pencils in the voting booths, etc.

Why do remain voters come across like sore losers?

They don't, unless that's what you're trying to see. Leave voters spend their time crowing about winning rather than what they've won; labelling any dissent as 'tantrums' and the dissenters as 'sore losers'. It's flippant and glib, and just more evidence that the majority of the Leave voters still do not understand the gravity of the decision they have made.

I think it's quite reasonable to be angry that the 'democratic process' was undermined by a legitimate leadership unashamedly repeating disproven falsehoods and using dogwhistle politics to unjustly stir up unrelated anti-EU sentiment.

 

[Cobby]

As for immigration, can't say I would necessarily expect it to go down. Or that it needs to go down. It just needs to be controlled so the country can plan for new schools, hospitals, houses etc. And we then have the capacity to actually help those that are really in need of a new place to live.

Lack of housing, school places, education quality or strength in the NHS are functions of years of underfunding by our own governments, immigration isn't the problem here. So unfortunately, there still won't be a magical materialisation of capacity for all those in need of yet another holiday home, or second home or for the foreign non-occupying investors.

Why can't we have a vote for who we want as the new Prime Minister ..... Eg. someone with balls and an idea for a positive future direction for
the UK..

I find myself saying this to Leave voters a lot: "You don't appear to understand the democratic system you are complaining about."

 

[rik_rs]

PS: people who want to invalidate this referendum are not democratic.
Politicians trying to stop this decision are not democratic
Tabloids paid to tell bul...it such as regretting unbrained brexiter, are dictatorial tenctacles.

Anyone not accepting this referendum should reckon that on that line anyone could ask again and again and again until someone get tired of not having his personal expected result.

If this referendum gets invalidated,
YOU WILL KNOW FOR SURE,
that Britain is no more a democracy.

And those people asking for a new referendum
ARE NOT surely democratic minded.​

 

[john1989]

No you wouldn't. The anger and hatred driving most of the Leave camp wouldn't just vanish. The Leave camp's arguments about bureaucracy and the EU being anti-democratic weren't based on an actual understanding of democracy, simply an unhappiness at not getting their own way. That wouldn't have vanished and even towards the end the Leave camp were laying the foundations to fight their way to their result - Farage demanding that a 52/48 split wouldn't be an end to it, the conspiracies around pencils in the voting booths, etc.


They don't, unless that's what you're trying to see. Leave voters spend their time crowing about winning rather than what they've won; labelling any dissent as 'tantrums' and the dissenters as 'sore losers'. It's flippant and glib, and just more evidence that the majority of the Leave voters still do not understand the gravity of the decision they have made.

I think it's quite reasonable to be angry that the 'democratic process' was undermined by a legitimate leadership unashamedly repeating disproven falsehoods and using dogwhistle politics to unjustly stir up unrelated anti-EU sentiment.

You lost. Nerrrr, nrrrr.

 

[ShirleyM]

Have to say, this former USA ambassador understands the vote better than our own politicians, not seeing the wood for the trees comes to mind.

The comment about Remain voters hit home, too. Many Remain voters do not like the EU, they wanted a reformed EU which the EU plainly said was NOT on offer, or were frightened by the threats and scare stories. The comment about the EU elite thinking they were invincible was also a treat.

 

[Cobby]

Any citizen of the EU can simply arrive in our country, set up home and stay as long as the wish. That isn't control of our borders by any stretch of the imagination. Now forget the scaremongering that immigration will now soar before we exit the EU.

My point is the disingenuous use of the term "Control" in varying semantic contexts can work both ways. The specificity of the argument was lacking.

I reckon it'll go into decline with people not wanting to come to a country where it appears they are not welcome, and their future when we do leave is far from certain. Suddenly many other EU countries look far more inviting.

We dislike foreigners so much we have salted the earth to deter them. What a noble and forward looking nation we are.

Many of our laws have been forced upon us by the EU, that isn't self government. I'm not saying all, but certainly a fair amount.

We *chose* to accept and respect certain aspects of EU regulation as part of our own, often going further than required. We agreed overwhelmingly with the decisions made in the EU. This cannot be represented as being 'forced upon us' with any honesty.

The FACT right now, and when we voted, is we lose £23,000,000 a day. Who knows (and it's certainly not You or I) what will happen regarding trade, no one knows, so many of us voted on the FACTS at the time, rather than if's, maybes and scaremongering.

Using a figure in isolation proves only a lack of appreciation for the complexity of the arrangement, not that paying that money is a net loss.

Now call those lies if you like, I really don't care, as the majority of the country (that's another fact) know it to be true.

That's the point! These arguments are disingenuous and built on fundamental misunderstandings or misrepresentations, or outright lies. Many people don't believe them to be lies, they believe them to be truths either through incidental or willful ignorance. The vote wasn't a validation it was a measurement - the lies don't magically become true because more people believe in them than don't.

 

[simon field]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153823804758935

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=275977272757274

 

[Cobby]

You lost. Nerrrr, nrrrr.

Thank you for helping to prove my point.

 

[rik_rs]

This new wave of terroristic

Please watch this video. This guy from the USA understands the UK people better than most of our own politicians.

http://therightscoop.com/david-came...n-explains-the-history-leading-to-the-brexit/

Marvelous!

It's a pity it's an italian intervention... Matteo Salvini (a Member of the EU Parliament for Northern Italy), Title : "Two minutes to say to the european commission: be ashamed!"

He talks about how useless is the EU, e.g. when an italian company have a product counterfaited in China, the EU does NOTHING or do something after years when the company has already bankrupted.

He says that "even a baby from a nursery school understand that" (the need of help from EU)
Hundreds of thousands of companies are closing in Italy because the EU doesn't care at all about these problems.
The end of Salvini speech was: "The sooner we exit this looney bin the better".

Here

he says that they are working so that Italy won't be the last country to abandon the sinking ship.

He says: "Being ruled from a bunch of freemasons, bureacrats, and financiers didn't bring us any good!"

I hope the brexit would be a trigger for freedom and for the end of this evil/stupid thing called EU.

 

[john1989]

Thank you for helping to prove my point.

Thank you for your great sense of humour

 

[Cobby]

Thank you for your great sense of humour

I got that you were trying to be funny, and even including your attempt at irony, you proved my point.

 

[sirearl]

No you wouldn't. The anger and hatred driving most of the Leave camp


Pure projection.

 

[simon field]

From where I'm stood I'm seeing a good deal of anger & hatred from the wannabe-remainers camp! Everybody on Farcebook is suddenly a politico!

Seems that the outers (the public, not the celebs) have been calmly confident throughout, now look at the shouty ones, see how 'tolerant' and 'un-bigoted' they've become

 

[john1989]

From where I'm stood I'm seeing a good deal of anger & hatred from the wannabe-remainers camp! Everybody on Farcebook is suddenly a politico!

Seems that the outers (the public, not the celebs) have been calmly confident throughout, now look at the shouty ones, see how 'tolerant' and 'un-bigoted' they've become

I voted out.

I'm now waiting (and hoping) the government do the right thing and pass the vote.

Ironically, the petition for another referendum was actually started a month ago by an out voter. He started it as a tongue in cheek petition thinking we wouldn't get out. Now the remain Nazis have jumped on the back of it and hijacked it.

 

[Newchodge]

Godwin's law. or is it too late?

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

https://next.ft.com/content/2b84027e-3b93-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a

The UK's lack of influence is starting to rear it's ugly head already.

For decades, the UK has been a balancing force in Europe in regards to banking and finance. We have largely been the key influence in allowing multiple currencies to coexist peacefully within the European market. Now, with the UK gone, the EU is free to move towards its single-currency alignment with the interests of the eurozone and the French and German banking sectors being the only priority.

That would be fine if we were completely isolated from Europe, but unsurprisingly, we are not.

Mr Hill’s point is that British banks and financial institutions will not escape this EU-27 rulemaking, whatever arrangements are found post-Brexit. Should Britain’s single market access continue — with prized “passporting” rights to serve EU clients in London — the rules are likely to have to be adopted wholesale.

In any event, negotiating such access may be impossible. “Most approaches that offer access come with free movement of people and I can’t see that flying given the weight of immigration as an issue in the referendum debate,” he said.

Other senior EU officials believe the UK’s passporting rights are effectively “dead” post-Brexit because other countries led by France will ensure any future form of passport will offer far less privileged access to a eurozone market with more protectionist rules. Banks have already begun to take action to shift operations out of the UK, approaching euro area regulators to secure licences.

If Britain seeks a deal outside the single market — based on EU and UK rules being deemed as “equivalent” and offering limited mutual access in return — many of those eurozone dominated rules will still need to be followed.

“Rulemaking will continue at a global level and at a European level … who is in the room and who has the critical heft is extremely important in how rules end up,” he said. “The nature of the rules you have to be equivalent to, or passporting into, are going to shift,” he added.

The reign of London as the world's top financial centre is coming to an end, and we're only 3 days in.

Don't think that will affect you? The UK financial services industry pays £65billion of tax to the UK Government every year, which is over 11% of the Government's total annual tax receipts.

With this situation putting the UK financial centre in a very precarious position where it will already be struggling to keep hold of a good chunk of its trade, the Government obviously cannot even contemplate increasing taxes in the sector to compensate for the loss, so I wonder where the additional tax revenue to make up the short-fall will come from. Tax increases for working people? Further cuts to public spending?