Europe should we stay in or get out?

[KM-Tiger]

I hope the way forwards is reconciliation and ultimately a move towards a directly democratic, transparent federated Europe of partner Countries but without the current politburo.

Could not have put it better.

This isn't about isolation, but exactly how we trade and work with our European neighbours.

 

[cjd]

Sturgeon has just said that another Scottish referendum is now likely. This means that she'll hold one with or without Parliament's approval. If Scotland votes out there will then have to be a real boarder between England and Scotland otherwise immigrants will simply enter England via the open boarder between Scotland and the EU.

Brilliant. Ask ignorant people a difficult question and wonder what answer you're going to get.

 

[john1989]

Sturgeon has just said that another Scottish referendum is now likely. This means that she'll hold one with or without Parliament's approval. If Scotland votes out there will then have to be a real boarder between England and Scotland otherwise immigrants will simply enter England via the open boarder between Scotland and the EU.

Brilliant. Ask ignorant people a difficult question and wonder what answer you're going to get.

Without approval? Just sums up what a vindictive cow she is.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Without approval? Just sums up what a vindictive cow she is.

So you vote leave to take back democratic control but don't like the result.

 

[john1989]

So you vote leave to take back democratic control but don't like the result.

That doesn't make much sense.
Scottish have had their referendum. They voted to say as part of the UK. The EU referendum should not provoke another Scottish referendum.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

That doesn't make much sense.
Scottish have had their referendum. They voted to say as part of the UK. The EU referendum should not provoke another Scottish referendum.

The Scots voted to remain as part of the UK in the EU. If the rest of the UK vote to leave then the Scottish question is not solved. You can't change the rules of the club and expect everyone to still be a member.

 

[john1989]

The Scots voted to remain as part of the UK in the EU. If the rest of the UK vote to leave then the Scottish question is not solved. You can't change the rules of the club and expect everyone to still be a member.

What would Scottish independence solve exactly? They still wouldn't become members of the EU.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

What would Scottish independence solve exactly? They still wouldn't become members of the EU.

I think you will find that they were already making approaches to join during the last scottish referendum. I expect them to get fast tracked membership as technically they are a member now.

 

[KM-Tiger]

If the Scots really want to go then they should, it's up to them.

Inconvenient to have to have a border, but not impossible.

 

[john1989]

I think you will find that they were already making approaches to join during the last scottish referendum. I expect them to get fast tracked membership as technically they are a member now.

Technically they are not a member.

As things stand they (a) won't get fast tracked into the EU and (b) they won't meet the EU criteria for membership.

 

[Cobby]

My own town voted overwhelming to leave and I think that the immigrant population is quite low here so perhaps it is other factors in play like believing in democracy and not having so much of our lives ruled by unelected European eurocrats.

It's funny how the areas without much contact with immigrants but a lot of holdover racism votes with immigration as an issue.

Having originally said that if the people voted to leave he would abide by their decision and negotiate the exit it seems that Cameron has thrown his toys out of his pram and intends to resign.

I dislike the man intensely but he's hardly throwing a tantrum. He doesn't want to be the Prime Minister that actually took the UK out of the EU and damaged it beyond repair, and I can't blame him for that. If the liars leading the exit campaign wanted his job so badly, now they can have it and have their names put down in history under that black mark instead.

And still the scaremongering and name calling carries on. Whilst uncontrolled immigration including the fact that we can't stop convicted rapists from Latvia settling here played a role in people's decision to vote to leave there are far more reasons that affected the voters' decisions than just that but it seems that the sore losers are happy to brand the majority of those that voted as racists as it makes them feel superior

Are we talking about the racists that branded Jamaican culture as "knife crime and violence"?

 

[Cobby]

Without approval? Just sums up what a vindictive cow she is.

Approval from whom?

 

[boring-friday]

Are we talking about the racists that branded Jamaican culture as "knife crime and violence"?

Are you disagreeing? Which Jamaica are you talking about then, not the following one?
http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news...p-20-per-cent--highest-level-in-5-years_48331

KINGSTON, Jamaica (AP) — Violent rivalries among Jamaica’s lottery scam rings have helped to drive the Caribbean island’s homicide rate to the highest level in five years, according to police.

The Jamaica Constabulary Force said the country had at least 1,192 slayings in 2015, a roughly 20 percent increase from the previous year. There were 1,005 killings in 2014, the lowest annual total since 2003 in this country that has long struggled with violent crime.

Jamaica had about 45 slayings per 100,000 people in 2015, keeping it ranked among the most violent countries in the world. In recent years, the UN listed the island as having the world’s sixth-worst homicide rate. The World Bank ranked Jamaica in the top five in 2013.

 

[Ian J]

It's funny how the areas without much contact with immigrants but a lot of holdover racism votes with immigration as an issue.

I decided a few years ago never to respond to anything you posted and don't intend to start now except to remind you that you have free reign to be as snidey as you like as I won't respond to you or any other trolls

 

[john1989]

I decided a few years ago never to respond to anything you posted and don't intend to start now except to remind you that you have free reign to be as snidey as you like as I won't respond to you or any other trolls

I realised a while ago that he / she reminds me of something that rhymes with Cob.

 

[quikshop]

If the liars leading the exit campaign wanted his job so badly, now they can have it and have their names put down in history under that black mark instead.

What a wonderful demonstration of democracy in action we have given to the World. Despite deeply divisive debates, it's good to see we're all coming together to chart a way forwards

 

[Toby Willows]

I've been following this thread from the off and thought I had managed to avoid being drawn into the argument. However....

I've always been in the "leave" camp and that's how I voted. I voted leave for three main reasons:-

To be governed by our own government.

To have control of our borders, nothing to do with immigration it's just simply common sense.

The obvious financial reasons.

I'm sure many of the other 17,000,000 odd voted for similar reasons and nothing to do with immigrants. Sadly though I'm not commenting further on this thread because, as has been obvious from the start, some (not all) of the "remain" brigade will only respond with either "you are racist" or "you are a liar". Let's hope our politicians are a bit more enlightened.

Speaking of politicians, with a very real prospect of Boris and Donald as PM and President politics could get very interesting.

 

[rik_rs]

Things are getting better and better.

FREXIT: Now Marine Le Pen demands MORE EU referendums following historic British vote
MORE than half of French voters want their own in-out referendum on European Union (EU) membership, renewing fears in Brussels that a Brexit could topple the 28-country bloc.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...eferendum-Brexit-Marine-Le-Pen-National-Front

Finally, the awakening!


And...
It comes after calls for Germany to have their own EU referendum in the aftermath of the migrant crisis.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...demand-Frexit-EU-referendum-Germany-UK-Brexit
but... but... weren't we told that out of EU we couldn't stop the wild immigration? And what's going on? Germany is in deep s..t just because of that!

If we are lucky this stupid concept of EU is going to dissolve forever. You can't join together a country with billions with a country with millions, a country with 5 miilion people with another with 1 billion, latin countries with german mentality, and so on. This doesn't even work inside a SINGLE COUNTRY! In Italy southern cities are completely different from northern cities (basically just like here but reversing north with south).

Any country must have their specific tailored laws. The only thing that could be shared (a little bit) is some simple, not invasive, rules about inter-trading. PERIOD. Nothing else. EU is like trying to install the monolitic Windows 10 both on i7 computers and Pentium 3: simply you can't do it! Don't even try! You can only do it with Linux because is what I'm talking about: can be tailored.
But, since the goal of EU was simply CONTROL, not prosperity... that's why they did it anyway.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I cannot believe there are some people coming out today saying they regret their vote and "didn't think it would actually happen".

Utterly unbelievable.

This was my greatest fear. Not all, but many people have used this as an anti-establishment protest exercise more than anything else.

There are people across England who have felt the brunt of austerity cuts over the past 6 years and voted for "change", but some out there do not fully understand what that change is. Unfortunately, it's highly likely to consist of everything they've hated about the UK in the past 6 years, except even worse.

I get this whole "sovereignty" and "taking back control" stuff. I can see why that resonates with so many. However, I highly doubt that many people who took that option fully understood and appreciated the ramifications of what they were voting for.

Many will have understood, of course, including many on here, but there's no denying that a lot of people haven't. England has voted against the often-criticised opinion of so many "experts" like economists, academics, business leaders and organisation leaders. Now we will find out whether the English working class ultimately have more wisdom than they do.

In surveys just before the referendum the large majority of people said they believed that their personal circumstances would be better off or stay the same. That really says it all. If people genuinely perceive Brexit as all of the pros without any of the cons, then perhaps this result is really not that surprising.

I really hope these problems don't happen. I really hope I'm wrong. I do not want to see the UK go through any sort of hardship. I do not want to see people already struggling with money being pushed beyond the breaking point. However, when I take everything into account, I think the next 10+ years are going to be very difficult for a lot of people.

I do not doubt that the UK, one day, may come out of this stronger than it was before. However, if the EU collapses as well, I do not think many of us will still be around to see that prosperity come back. It would be the equivalent of the United States breaking apart.

Oh well, at least my bet won, I suppose.

 

[john1989]

I cannot believe there are some people coming out today saying they regret their vote and "didn't think it would actually happen".

Utterly unbelievable.

This was my greatest fear. Not all, but many people have used this as an anti-establishment protest exercise more than anything else.

There are people across England who have felt the brunt of austerity cuts over the past 6 years and voted for "change", but some out there do not fully understand what that change is. Unfortunately, it's highly likely to consist of everything they've hated about the UK in the past 6 years, except even worse.

I get this whole "sovereignty" and "taking back control" stuff. I can see why that resonates with so many. However, I highly doubt that many people who took that option fully understood and appreciated the ramifications of what they were voting for.

Many will have understood, of course, including many on here, but there's no denying that a lot of people haven't. England has voted against the often-criticised opinion of so many "experts" like economists, academics, business leaders and organisation leaders. Now we will find out whether the English working class ultimately have more wisdom than they do.

In surveys just before the referendum the large majority of people said they believed that their personal circumstances would be better off or stay the same. That really says it all. If people genuinely perceive Brexit as all of the pros without any of the cons, then perhaps this result is really not that surprising.

I really hope these problems don't happen. I really hope I'm wrong. I do not want to see the UK go through any sort of hardship. I do not want to see people already struggling with money being pushed beyond the breaking point. However, when I take everything into account, I think the next 10+ years are going to be very difficult for a lot of people.

I do not doubt that the UK, one day, may come out of this stronger than it was before. However, if the EU collapses as well, I do not think many of us will still be around to see that prosperity come back. It would be the equivalent of the United States breaking apart.

Oh well, at least my bet won, I suppose.

I didn’t think it would actually happen, but I don’t regret my vote.


I suspect these people are in a tiny minority, and had the voted to remain, it wouldn’t have influenced the outcome.


Your post seems to dismiss the out voters as nothing more than a protest vote. There was nothing in my vote that was irrational.

 

[TODonnell]

Isn't Scotland financially bust anyway? Like, I thought it and northern England were dependent on 'government' money i.e. handouts?

So how can it be independent?

No trying to insult it, but, I'm wondering if independence for Scotland is just posturing. If they truly want to go it alone and they are a net drain on the economy, then let them off.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I didn’t think it would actually happen, but I don’t regret my vote.

I suspect these people are in a tiny minority, and had the voted to remain, it wouldn’t have influenced the outcome.

Your post seems to dismiss the out voters as nothing more than a protest vote. There was nothing in my vote that was irrational.

Not all, but many people have used this as an anti-establishment protest exercise more than anything else.

Many will have understood, of course, including many on here, but there's no denying that a lot of people haven't.

Just because the many people sided with you, it does not necessarily mean that they sided with you based on the same conviction. There will be a melting pot of different priorities amongst leave supporters. Some will firmly believe that our economic outlook will be better, some believe that "sovereignty" matters most of all, some are resisting against the establishment, and some just want to stop immigration.

Today I asked a few people who voted for leave what they expected the effect on inflation to be. They then asked me what inflation is. It will be interesting to see in a few years time just how many leave supporters across the UK, if any, will wish they could turn back time.

I do think there will be a LOT of people in the next 10+ years who will run into certain difficulties or obstacles they've never experienced before, go to blame someone and then suddenly realise "oh wait, I voted for this".

 

[Ian J]

I do not doubt that the UK, one day, may come out of this stronger than it was before. However, if the EU collapses as well, I do not think many of us will still be around to see that prosperity come back. It would be the equivalent of the United States breaking apart.

The United States is one country with one government and one currency which the EC isn't as it is 28 countries with 28 different governments, quite a few different languages and at least two different currencies.

Perhaps if this is the start of a general collapse a new European Community might arise from the ashes which goes back to the original concept of trading and not politics

 

[Jack Burton]

I heard a good point made about the Scots going independent, that it would never happen because:

a) If they went independent they would need to stay out of the EU if they wanted to remain part of pound.
b) If they went independent and joined the EU they would need to join the Euro.

Neither of which appears very enticing on the face of it. I don't think it matters what happened with the EU referendum, Scotland is on a track to leave the UK and any "upset" would have caused them to instigate another referendum either way.

 

[Ian J]

Today I asked a few people who voted for leave what they expected the effect on inflation to be. They then asked me what inflation is. It will be interesting to see in a few years time just how many leave supporters across the UK, if any, will wish they could turn back time.

.

Why should it have any effect on inflation or anything else financial for that matter

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Isn't Scotland financially bust anyway? Like, I thought it and northern England were dependent on 'government' money i.e. handouts?

So how can it be independent?

No trying to insult it, but, I'm wondering if independence for Scotland is just posturing. If they truly want to go it alone and they are a net drain on the economy, then let them off.

London contributes far more per capita to the UK economy than anywhere else. Shall we just keep breaking off parts of the UK until London is left on its own by itself?

I do actually think that more autonomy for London is on the cards over the next few decades. What London, Scotland and Northern Ireland want are very different to what the rest of England wants. This is not an impossible thought. After all, the economy of London alone is larger than the economy of many entire EU countries, and roughly the same size as the likes of Belgium and Sweden.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Your post seems to dismiss the out voters as nothing more than a protest vote. There was nothing in my vote that was irrational.

I am sure everyone thinks that.

Two of my neighbours voted leave because of something they read in the Daily Mail which confused the EU with the UN Committee on Refugees. Another two voted in the hope that there would be very little upheaval of the type seen on the world wide stock markets today. Another one voted because of immigration even though she meets none and lives in a county where she is very unliklely.

All rational choices.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Why should it have any effect on inflation or anything else financial for that matter

When the Pound falls to its lowest value since 1985, making imports of foods, goods and energy resources much more expensive, and businesses therefore push up their prices to counter that, what do you think is going to happen?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The fact you voted leave and then have to ask why it will have an impact on inflation just sums up this whole referendum.

The Bank of England is going to really have its work cut out to steady the ship here. With the tanking Pound, market uncertainty, economic uncertainty, currency flight, spooked investment and job losses, we really are in the perfect storm right now.

What makes it worse than even 2008 is that we are not in the same boat as everyone else globally. Markets had few avenues to go down with the same outcome at every turn back then. Whilst the world's economy will be hit hard by this, there are now far more safe-havens for businesses and investors than 2008. This is also combined with the urgency of many companies to get back into the EU single market as quickly as they can.

 

[john1989]

I am sure everyone thinks that.

Two of my neighbours voted leave because of something they read in the Daily Mail which confused the EU with the UN Committee on Refugees. Another two voted in the hope that there would be very little upheaval of the type seen on the world wide stock markets today. Another one voted because of immigration even though she meets none and lives in a county where she is very unliklely.

All rational choices.

And all those that voted remain made a reasoned, well-informed decision

If it had been a remain vote, I would have respected that and got on with life.

Why do remain voters come across like sore losers?

 

[RedOnion]

When the Pound falls to its lowest value since 1985, making imports of foods, goods and energy resources much more expensive, and businesses therefore push up their prices to counter that, what do you think is going to happen?

Agree that will cause inflation and that it did go low, but why always doom and gloom, why nothing positive?

The pound is already picking up some of its losses against the $ and € (agreed, it is going slowly) but at least it is going in the right direction, and this is only the first day.

 

[Ian J]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The fact you voted leave and then have to ask why it will have an impact on inflation just sums up this whole referendum.

More insults from you again.

No-one knows what effect the vote to leave will have even people with vastly superior intellects like yourself can only guess and most of them are preaching doom and gloom so that they can say "told you so"

After a few days of panic by the bankers I expect things to recover as nothing is going to happen for a couple of years anyway

 

[Ian J]

Why do remain voters come across like sore losers?

Because they all have superior intellects and are annoyed that they have been outvoted by the stupid masses who haven't a clue what they voted for

 

[Breaking Good]

Without approval? Just sums up what a vindictive cow she is.

Vindictive cow?

Approval and blessing are two different things. She WILL get approval as it's undemocratic not to.

But this kind of comment sums up the animosity Scots feel towards England. England has voted to leave the EU which is perfectly democractic but the following logic is annoying:

Let's leave the EU yayyy....Oh wait how dare Scotland want to leave the UK.. Let's invade half the world, enslave them, make their lives a misery for generations but hmmm I'm feeling a bit uncomfortable with someone from Poland taking my job.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Agree that will cause inflation and that it did go low, but why always doom and gloom, why nothing positive?

The pound is already picking up some of its losses against the $ and € (agreed, it is going slowly) but at least it is going in the right direction, and this is only the first day.

Because it's going to be years until we know of the outcome and therefore years before we know what, if any, part of it will be positive.

The negative impact of Brexit is already well-established. The positive outcomes are currently up in the air.

My pessimism is based on 4 simple facts:

1). Economic uncertainty is not a good thing.

2). Trade uncertainty is not a good thing.

3). A giant fall in the Pound is not a good thing.

4). The EU will not make life easy for us because they want to show other members why choosing to leave is not a good idea. Call it vindictive if you want, but that is what will happen. Let's all be honest here folks, there is one way the EU could ensure that no other member dare even thinks of leaving: if the UK ends up on its knees.

The Pound will pick up a little bit, but you just have to look at the overall environment to see why it's going to struggle. It will take years not only to negotiate our exit, but to also negotiate new trade deals with the world. Only the most daring traders and investors will come in during this time to gamble on everything turning out fine. The rest will either short against the Pound or simply steer clear.

One thing for certain is that this will continue until there is a formal agreement - signed, sealed and delivered - on exactly what the UK's post-EU relationship with Europe and the world is going to look like.

Any perceived positives at this stage are also fraught with doubt:

Make our own trade agreements - are they actually going to be any better than they are now, or even equally favourable at all?

Control our own laws - what will the Government now do with workers' rights and our human rights?

Control immigration - how much will it really go down? Will there be an unprecedented surge of migrants entering the UK in the next two years to settle before the door closes? A gradual growth in immigration whilst the economy expands along with it is fine. A giant surge all at the same time when the economy is in a recession is not.

The negatives are already visible for all to see. The positives, meanwhile, are still highly uncertain and come with the distinct possibility that they may turn out to be negatives in many respects as well.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I do find it rather amusing that some leave supporters are currently criticising David Cameron for resigning by saying that he's "running away" from the problem.

*vote to run away from the EU*
*David Cameron resigns*
"You're a coward for running away!"

 

[KM-Tiger]

I do find it rather amusing that some leave supporters are currently criticising David Cameron for resigning by saying that he's "running away" from the problem.

I cannot think why. He has done the right thing as he knows he would never have public confidence in leading Brexit negotiations.

Osborne should go as well. Directly threatening more than half of voters will not be forgiven.

 

[john1989]

I do find it rather amusing that some leave supporters are currently criticising David Cameron for resigning by saying that he's "running away" from the problem.

*vote to run away from the EU*
*David Cameron resigns*
"You're a coward for running away!"

Some say this, some say that.

Not representative of the majority.

You're just being silly and petty now. It's a shame because whilst I've not agreed with many of your posts, at least they were sensible.

 

[Jack Burton]

Bah, I can't post images or links still.

"Go to the pub and wait for all this to blow over"

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Some say this, some say that.

Not representative of the majority.

You're just being silly and petty now. It's a shame because whilst I've not agreed with many of your posts, at least they were sensible.

Why do you keep assuming that everything I say is trying to paint all leave supporters with the same brush?

KM-Tiger understood that in his reply. I did say "some". If this doesn't apply to you, then great, but I never claimed it did in the first place.

 

[RedOnion]

Because it's going to be years until we know of the outcome and therefore years before we know what, if any, part of it will be positive.

You really believe that? You do know that there is a whole world of other countries outside the EU that we can trade with - and set our own, better, agreements with?

Think Positive! We will be totally out within 2 years - no one wants it to last longer than it has to.

As for immigration, can't say I would necessarily expect it to go down. Or that it needs to go down. It just needs to be controlled so the country can plan for new schools, hospitals, houses etc. And we then have the capacity to actually help those that are really in need of a new place to live.

I think you may be as far down the doom and gloom scale as I am along the positive scale!