High court Petition - HMRC Bringing

[alwaysinamess]

Well finally my issues for my company have finally come to a head, I have received a notice today that on Monday 21 March that the Royal Courts of Justice, London will hear a petition being bought by HMRC to pray that my Ltd company is wound up by the court and "that such other order be made that the court sees fit"....Note:- it is intended to serve this petition on the Company.

Now I do not have any experience of this, it is for approx £60k......I am a bit disappointed that it has come too this and I probably have to take the responsibility....but we are dealing with people who make your life hell.

I have a couple of questions as I am living abroad, at this moment I do not have a pot to piss in as such, There is no way I can afford to come back to the UK to defend this and impossible to afford any legal advice, I see many people advertise services for my case on the web but I would imagine as soon as I say I can not afford to pay you they would hang up on me and not give any advice, however it maybe worth a call as the phone numbers are of no cost. however there is not much notice to do much anyway (less than 12 days)

On the form it states do not phone this number call the number on the latest letter sent to you, but I have no letter so.....

Then it also says if you wish to discuss anything call on the number on the petition, but there is no number.

All I want to is because this is my company and I guess I am responsible, put a statement forward to the court as the solicitor for HMRC will do for herself.

I hope somebody has some idea of how to do this.

I would also hope that any decent judge would see through the estimations made by HMRC when I could show that there is no way that the estimates are any reflection on what I owe, I mean 60k is equivilent of a 300k profit I would assume, like I say I am living in immense poverty at this moment no where near that of a 300K profit.

I guess to call them is the best way forward but I hold out very little hope of getting anywhere with HMRC without losing my temper and smashing my phone up and then not being able to sleep. I probably have another 13 nights of no sleep now worrying about there exaggerated auto assesment of my VAT Bill

If any one has any experience of the 2 points I ask, the statement and contacting them ...good or bad, please let me know.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Ian J]

I guess to call them is the best way forward but I hold out very little hope of getting anywhere with HMRC without losing my temper and smashing my phone up and then not being able to sleep. I probably have another 13 nights of no sleep now worrying about there exaggerated auto assesment of my VAT Bill

If their claims for Vat assessments are miles out why don't you submit the correct figures?

There seems to be little point in losing your temper with HMRC when it's you that's in the wrong

 

[alwaysinamess]

Ian, Thank you for your reply...... I had a bad accountant........he put a friend of mine in a similar situation by submitting incorrect VAT Returns and he ended up in the nut house, I have not seen him since......As for HMRC...I do not know how to contact them direct, I have no idea what the figures are, and I would not know how to submit them, also I have no access to my bank no more as they have frozen the accounts, so I am unable to even show there was no turnover in the periods they have assessed,I doubt there is even time to do this and I have read (and it maybe wrong) that now it is at this stage there court would take a dim view of this. I will call the phone number tomorrow they have give me that tells me I should not call and see where I can go from there. But I very much doubt now it is at this state they are willing to assist me in any way.

The **big** problem is when I have called them I only have limited time then the battery goes flat on my phone from the time you are on hold, Now I only have also limited time to deal with this.

You can not help lose your temper with these people because they live in a bubble where they offer no help but just make you angry.

Please understand I live day to day

 

[Scalloway]

If HMRC are petitioning to have the company wound up they are saving you the hassle. The money in the company bank account will pay the liquidator and some of the debt and that will be that.

 

[alwaysinamess]

Thanks also for your reply, I actually did sleep last night.

The business account is overdrawn, there has been no funds in it for approx 2 years, I only worry about this "personally liable" situation.

3 years ago I wrote a letter to HMRC to ask to DeVat, they refused until I paid a £7k debt, because of this refusal they have made these auto assesment's, but if I could show the bank accounts it would be obvious very little money has turned over.

Because of the personal liability issue, maybe I read too much into it.

 

[Lisa Thomas]

Hi - I haven't read the responses so apologies if I am repeating something.

The Judge will not be able to refuse to grant the Order simply because you say HMRCs figures are wrong - you would need to prove that to the Court's (or HMRC's) satisfaction.

The only way to do that is to put any all all outstanding returns in to HMRC, or prove there is a discrepancy in the figures they have used.

However even if you were able to do this in time, if there was still a liability due to HMRC the Order would still be granted.

If the Company has ceased trading and has no assets to protect then Lqn is probably the right course.

I would simply let the hearing take place then cooperate with the Official Receiver/O.R.

 

[alwaysinamess]

Hello

My apologies, due to my absolute poverty, I have been without internet until today, so becaase today I have internet, I called HMRC, friendly and answer fast, they advised me to speak to insolvency practitioner that offers free advice, I spoke to two.

I briefly explained my story too both, and both completely agreed that HMRC are virtual;;y impossible to deal with until you reach this stage where they answer the phone within one ring.

So I do worry for the Wrongful Trading and they come after me for this, so I ask first has anybody dealt with the liquidator /official receiver, both did state that this is not something that will be dealt with in a short term and may take many months.

Also I would have to have at least one face to face meeting, but although working for the court in general they are independent and are there also to give advice ???

I am interested in what timescale the aftermath takes place..

I would be happy to admit to a wrong doing for the previous two years but seeing as they will notice virtually minimal turnover in my account it will show that the auto assesment is completely wrong.

So I ask now for advice on aftermath please. everything is my responsibility but I do have mitigating circumstances for the decisions I made.

If it was not or the Police here in Spain and a lorry driver who called them I would be not here now writing this, that was how much the HMRC pushed me. sad but true.

 

[Spongebob]

Sorry to hear of your plight, but please stop worrying.

The winding up hearing is actually good news for you, as it brings closure to this whole episode a little nearer. It is also just a formality - you do not need to attend or indeed respond to the notice you have received. Just let events take their course.

The company will be wound up and the Official Receiver appointed by the court to liquidate it. The OR will write to you asking you to complete a questionnaire and to attend an interview.

I would complete the questionnaire and return it together with any of the company's books, bank statements etc. that you have in your possession. I would also inform the OR of your current circumstances and inability to attend an interview. Request that the interview is conducted via the telephone.

Once the OR staff realise that you are not a crook who has run off with a big stash from the company they will want to close your company's file as quickly as possible. So long as you are respectful and co-operate fully with them this will happen within a month or so and you will find that your company's status on the Companies House website has changed from "In Liquidation" to "Dissolved". CH do not write to inform you of this.

This will all be over by the summer and you will not be personally liable to pay anything.

Good luck.

 

[S Goodman]

Sorry to hear of your plight, but please stop worrying.

The winding up hearing is actually good news for you, as it brings closure to this whole episode a little nearer. It is also just a formality - you do not need to attend or indeed respond to the notice you have received. Just let events take their course.

The company will be wound up and the Official Receiver appointed by the court to liquidate it. The OR will write to you asking you to complete a questionnaire and to attend an interview.

I would complete the questionnaire and return it together with any of the company's books, bank statements etc. that you have in your possession. I would also inform the OR of your current circumstances and inability to attend an interview. Request that the interview is conducted via the telephone.

Once the OR staff realise that you are not a crook who has run off with a big stash from the company they will want to close your company's file as quickly as possible. So long as you are respectful and co-operate fully with them this will happen within a month or so and you will find that your company's status on the Companies House website has changed from "In Liquidation" to "Dissolved". CH do not write to inform you of this.

This will all be over by the summer and you will not be personally liable to pay anything.

Good luck.

Actually there are a number of crimes he could be called upon, trading whilst insolvent being one. Fleeing the country with tax payers (vat) money with no intention of returning, he's admitted this already. Being a Ltd is not a get out if jail free card by any means, and by implying it is isn't helpful to the poster or equally naive readers of this thread.

 

[bovine]

With respect, spongebob does have a long history here and is well regarded. He offers good advice to the reality of the situation.

There may or may not be "crimes" but mostly these things are people trying their best and failing.

And the op should stop worrying, what will be will be and chances are spongebob is on the money as always. To suggest hmrc will pursue the op vigorously is quite naive in itself. In an ideal world they would and would get back all money everyone owes, but that really isn't the case. They have to pick their battles. Small fry and big fish don't appear to be their hunting grounds.

 

[uk26]

I have read this topic from start to finish and here is my view.

1) it sounds like the OP is or has not been keeping accounting records or he would be able to complete the VAT returns.
2) He has not filed VAT Returns
3) i suspect he has also not filed company accounts.

 

[Scalloway]

The OP states that he had an accountant who was meant to deal with it for him.

It is not up to us to judge. That is the job of the High Court and the Official Receiver,

 

[S Goodman]

It is not up to us to judge. That is the job of the High Court and the Official Receiver,

Exactly, which is why he shouldn't be told "it'll all be done with by summer and you won't be liable for the money". That may well not be the case if he has been negligent in his duties as a company director.

 

[Spongebob]

Actually there are a number of crimes he could be called upon, trading whilst insolvent being one. Fleeing the country with tax payers (vat) money with no intention of returning, he's admitted this already. Being a Ltd is not a get out if jail free card by any means, and by implying it is isn't helpful to the poster or equally naive readers of this thread.

If the Official Receiver's office decides that any offences have been committed, they are the people tasked to deal with the matter.

The simple fact is that for small sums of money like those being discussed here, the OR will not waste their time or taxpayers' money pursuing a director of an insolvent company that has long since ceased trading for anything less than blatant fraud. There has been no suggestion in this thread that the OP has been guilty of defrauding anyone. At most he might be guilty of incompetence, and that is not an offence.

The whole point of limited liability is to encourage entrepreneurs to take risks with money that is not theirs. It gives them no protection from losing their own investment; simply the risks they take with other peoples' money. This is essential to a thriving economy - without limited liability there would have been no industrial revolution, no railway network built, etc etc.

"Other peoples' money" incudes funds from investors, borrowings from banks, suppliers' credit, and monies due to the taxman. Our economy depends to a large degree on companies speculating with this money, and inevitably it is sometimes lost. Thankfully, because of limited liability, directors are not pursued to their graves because they got out of their depth.

The Official Receivers' office knows all this very well, and will be sympathetic to a director's plight unless they suspect him of taking the piss.

That is why I confidently tell the OP not to worry. The system is largely on his side so long as he follows the correct protocol.

 

[alwaysinamess]

Thanks I do have some concerns, today I had a missed call from Irwin Mitchell solicitors, it looks to me as they are a solicitor that specialise in Tax/VAT fraud, is it normal a solicitor would call you after this case ?

I have no idea how I would contact the OR, would I contact the HMRC Solicitor to ask them about this.

Is there any way of finding out what the High Court stated ?

 

[Scalloway]

Irwin Mitchell also appear to pursue no win no fee cases. They may want to pursue your accountant for you.

 

[alwaysinamess]

It is possible the accountant is dead, his phone is off and his facebook is non existant, I don't have any other way to contact him, I asked my friend for his number but....

The HMRC are the only people that would have had my mobile number here, nobody else.

In other words they have gained information from the statement of the solicitor for HMRC possibly.

Would it be normal for a firm such as them to be calling the debtor the next day after the case ?