Lawrence Tomlinson report & RBS

[NastyWest Victim]

Don't know if you've seen the news or read about the Lawrence Tomlinson report re RBS in the press but I am one of the RBS bank victims. I have never missed a payment on my loans, I have never been late nor have I ever been short on the payments. I was lied to by a bank manager who told me my loan facility would be renewed at the end of a 5 year term. After 4 years the banking crisis hit & the bank said they no longer wanted this kind of business. It was impossible to refinance. I am still fighting them two & a half years & tens of thousands of pounds later. I have a solicitor & barrister & have a meeting with their solicitors next week I will probably go bankrupt fighting them. I am very interested in hearing anyone in the same boat.

 

[beasty]

If the bank says you can borrow money and you borrow it, you are happy, they want it back you are not happy as they should be compelled to keep lending to you?

I do not get that

He produced a report, businesses that were viable, but not that viable if they were operating with debt, the Bank is a business too and in order for them to stay viable they rightly chased for overdrafts to be repaid

As a shareholder I think the RBS was doing what I would expect them to do

 

[NastyWest Victim]

If the bank says you can borrow money and you borrow it, you are happy, they want it back you are not happy as they should be compelled to keep lending to you?

I do not get that

He produced a report, businesses that were viable, but not that viable if they were operating with debt, the Bank is a business too and in order for them to stay viable they rightly chased for overdrafts to be repaid

As a shareholder I think the RBS was doing what I would expect them to do

So you think its good practice to tell your customers that you want to have a long term relationship with them, then change your mind & use the law of property act 1925 (& please ensure you read that before you reply) to run a business into the ground. I kept up my loan repayments of which the bank were making money. Since the bank instructed the receivers (not through the courts but by using a law from 1925 see above) none of the loan has been repaid as the recievers havent collected any rents. The receivers & the bank thought i would lay down & give them everything i have worked for over 20 years to get. If you seriously think that is good business sense then I can't wait to see your shares plummet in value. My properties were worth a million pounds clearing over £30,000 in proffits, I owed them £600,000. I would call that a healthy business Since most of the tenants have been bullied into leaving, the properties are going into disrepair. The receivers are doing nothing with them. I trird to teke them back but was threatened with court action if i went anywhere near them. I guess they are planning to sell them to their subsidiary company West Register, but I guess you've never heard of them. I suggest before you go buying shares into a fraudulent company you do your research. There is so much more I could tell you about the company you have shares in but I am saving that for an investigative journalist. I have evidence of some of the corrupt things going on there including recorded conversations. If there are any journalists reading this please contact me.

Oh & forgot to add Beasty, have you read RBS financial report. If you had you may see they've borrowed a bit of money over the last few years.

 

[Scalloway]

Here is a link to the story. If you read the thread on this forum about EFG default you will see that the RBS has come a common thread there

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25077124

 

[Alan R Price]

I read the report in the Sunday Times yesterday and even after stripping out the sensationalist reportage, misinterpretations and non sequiturs, was still horrified by the allegations. If it's true, it's a complete disgrace.

beasty, people come onto this forum for assistance and advice. Sometimes they have been foolish or worse but often they haven't. The common thread is that they are stressed, perhaps panicking and often desperate. Please try to offer constructive comment rather than being judgmental. If you read OP's post properly, he is not complaining about having to pay back the money his company borrowed but that the bank lied to him, reneged on its agreement with him and then appointed receivers, which has destroyed his business. This may or may not be true but he appears to have found a legal team that agrees with him.

 

[NastyWest Victim]

Thanks Scalloway. Have read that & have been up all night reading. I know there were others out there but only actually found a couple of people in the past. Hopefully now we will become a big voice.

 

[NastyWest Victim]

Thanks Alan.
I was more than happy to repay the money & even offered to pay at a higher interest rate. I spent hours before signing the contract going through every line asking questions & being reassured that as long as I kept my account in good order the loan facility would be renewed at the end of the term. I started my property business over 20 years ago & had gradually built it up with a lot of hard work. Most of my tenants had previously been homeless. I had a good mix of houses most in very good areas with equity. There is no way on earth that I would have moved any of my properties had I known there was any chance the loan facility would not be renewed. This has absolutely devastated us & if MOH had agreed we woild have taken our lives to get out of the living hell they have put us through. Due to them taking the properties under the law of property act I am still responsible & liable for everything. I have had over £6000 worth of council tax demands which I cannot pay as they have taken away my income. I regularly have bailiffs at the door for council tax and water standing charges and gas and electric standing charges. The receivers have taken out an overdraft in my name for over £10,000 I only know about this due to information received in my SARS request. There is also much more to this but it would take you hours to read my full story.

 

[NastyWest Victim]

I can see a few people are reading this thread. Please don't just pass by. Share your story & let's become a bigger voice & balance the scales of justice.

 

[GraemeL]

Its shocking.

There is a big difference between a profitability and cashflow, the general public (and some who post on this forum) will not get that.

G

 

[NastyWest Victim]

Its shocking.

There is a big difference between a profitability and cashflow, the general public (and some who post on this forum) will not get that.

G

Correct GraemeL & mine was a very profitable company that has been driven into the ground by nothing more than rouges & thieves. I can not believe that something like the law of property act 1925 can still be used. This is a law which allows a Bank to hand over your properties to receivers without taking you to court or even discussing with you. This is a law that allows the receivers to go into your properties & change the locks and sell them, the police can't even enter your property without a court warrant, again they can do this without discussing it with you. They are appointed as your agents even though you have not appointed them, you are still responsible for their actions or omissions which in some cases can mean imprisonment i.e. if they fail to do gas checks or repairs & a tenant is injured, or god forbid is killed, it is you that is responsible not the receivers.

 

[businessfunding]

Here is a link to the story. If you read the thread on this forum about EFG default you will see that the RBS has come a common thread there

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25077124

The key reason that RBS is a common thread is that they have become public property.

In order to get any balance on this story we would have to see the financial performance of the 'victims'.

In reality is is hardly likely to be in RBS's interests to foreclose on good customers - even if they do get property out of it. No bank actually wants a distressed property portfolio particularly as they will have to revalue it to the detriment of their balance sheet.

 

[GraemeL]

In reality is is hardly likely to be in RBS's interests

You would think so wouldnt you? Yet there must be a very good reason for Dr Cable to make this public and pass the file to those that deal with nastiness? Its hardly good publicity.

G

 

[NastyWest Victim]

Business funding thank you for your comment & I can reply with my experience. I was told by a bank manager that the bank had lent me the money too cheaply. In 2008 at 1.15% above bank base rate. As the interest rates soon after rapidly plummeted they were apparently loosing money on the deal, ie they had borrowed the money at whatever the rate was in 2008 I believe somewhere around 5% and as the interest rate plummeted they were losing out on the deal, as they borrow the money at a higher rate that they were lending it to me therefore it was costing them money on the deal.

 

[PaulThompson]

This is an awful situation but one which is not that surprising given the economic situation since 2007 and also one which is not unique to RBS.
The high street banks have long had a general policy of 5 year terms on their loans, since this means they are not committed to your business in the long term they have to have to set aside less capital to cover potential bad debt.
We've long been viewing these as potentially risky loans for the very reason you state, the bank might not want to renew the facility for a wide variety of reasons (which might or might not be to do with your business)
There ARE lenders and have been throughout the crisis who, without the balance sheet issues of the big banks, would (and still do) fund over long terms (up to 30 years if necessary) without the reviews but there will still be a requirement to remain within certain limits with respect to the income from the business/property and the loan to value ratio.
When profits and property values fall at the same time it exposes many businesses to this sort of action, an early word from RBS might have allowed you to jump ship to another lender but unless you came to a broker you probably wouldn't have found one.
It would be nice to think there would be some sort of compensation but I think you'll find, unless they confirmed it was going to be renewed, then they will deny it and have your signatures in all the right places to cover their rear ends.
Now, if you happened to have had interest rate protection against it, PM me, it becomes rather more interesting!!

 

[PaulThompson]

The key reason that RBS is a common thread is that they have become public property.

In order to get any balance on this story we would have to see the financial performance of the 'victims'.

In reality is is hardly likely to be in RBS's interests to foreclose on good customers - even if they do get property out of it. No bank actually wants a distressed property portfolio particularly as they will have to revalue it to the detriment of their balance sheet.

Correct but there are tax advantages in writing this stuff off early, getting it cleared from the balance sheet and not having a "bad bank" to deal with later.
(I don't like it, that's just how I see it)

 

[John Stokdyk]

Hi everyone - I'm the editor of UKBF's sister site AccountingWEB.co.uk and found this thread while researching the Tomlinson report.
The scenarios I'm hearing about are similar to some other instances that raise wider concerns about business banking, but I'm also interested in the role of the receivers. NWV - do you feel the receivers have been straight with you so far?
In other instances, banks have appointed investigating accountants who then recommend the business is put into administration, which the reporting firm then handles. This is an age old issue that Austin Mitchell highlighted in Parliament recently.
I'll continue to watch with interest and will report back on my findings - but any further evidence will be welcomed.

 

[NastyWest Victim]

Correct but there are tax advantages in writing this stuff off early, getting it cleared from the balance sheet and not having a "bad bank" to deal with later.
(I don't like it, that's just how I see it)

Don't forget they've probably also bought your properties for a 3rd of their true value through their subsidiary West Register.

 

[fisicx]

MY wife works for RBSIF. We discussed this story at length yesterday and I have checked with her this morning.

RBS do not want to buy the assets of any business. If a business is no longer viable they will stop funding but that's it. They don't want the assets.

What generally happens it the long term financial plans of a business are reviewed (annually) and if they no longer wish to fund they don't have to.

I'm not saying RBS is right everytime (just like any bank) but loans don't last forever and they can withdraw finding (which they do everyday) at the end of the agreement.

 

[businessfunding]

Business funding thank you for your comment & I can reply with my experience. I was told by a bank manager that the bank had lent me the money too cheaply. In 2008 at 1.15% above bank base rate. As the interest rates soon after rapidly plummeted they were apparently loosing money on the deal, ie they had borrowed the money at whatever the rate was in 2008 I believe somewhere around 5% and as the interest rate plummeted they were losing out on the deal, as they borrow the money at a higher rate that they were lending it to me therefore it was costing them money on the deal.

It is certainly true that banks lost money on much of what they did - but presumably the answer here was to renew at a higher rate?

Without wanting to focus on your specific circumstances, I would reiterate that strategically bank don't want distressed property portfolios, although there might be localised decisions that don't reflect that.

I'm not a defender of the banks - I believe they ran like lemmings into the banking crisis and behaved like complete idiots, however the evidence I'm seeing is that banks are nursing bad debt rather than foreclosing - unlike the last recession when they were complete b@stards!

 

[NastyWest Victim]

I have sent you a PM John Stohdyk
Fisicx I admire your your wife's loyalty & would be very interested in knowing what her position is in the bank. The evidence is clearly there. Is she not aware of her employers subsidiary company west register & how they do their business.
I appreciate that there are companies who have genuinely gone bust for what ever other reason but there is so much evidence of far to many thriving companies who they have caused problems for. The reports author was a victim himself & am sure he would have been thoroughly vetted before they allowed him to compile the report.

 

[fisicx]

My properties were worth a million pounds clearing over £30,000 in proffits, I owed them £600,000. I would call that a healthy business .

The banks thought otherwise. How were you planning to pay off the debt?

My wife spends much of her time working out how to save businesses. The problem is the fiinancial plans of the businesses often don't stack up and they rely on loans and finance to pay the bills. NaWest =/= RBS. THey may be part of the same group but they are not the same bank.

And what most people don't know is RBS has already paid back the bailout money. The government just doesn't want to sell it back as it's earning them a good few bob.

 

[beasty]

My properties were worth a million pounds clearing over £30,000 in proffits, I owed them £600,000. I would call that a healthy business

30k on a 600k debt sounds like time to switch of the lending

Banks get a hard time for not lending and a hard time for tightening up
Seems there is no way a bank can win unless it is renamed a PEOPLES COOP or something, loans are not indefinite and if you are not paying them down or aiming to clear them you are making your 30k a year using a heck of a lot of other peoples money with little prospect of clearing it

Last post on here as i can see this being a 10 pager, 30k on 600k of debt is way out of proportion

 

[beasty]

Guess I was posting at same time as previous poster...

 

[businessfunding]

Sorry, but this makes him the worst possible candidate for this job - hardly impartial!

Thoroughly vetted, well they might have asked around a bit to see if he'd been in prison recently.

 

[fisicx]

The reports author was a victim himself & am sure he would have been thoroughly vetted before they allowed him to compile the report.

Vetted by whom? The same people who let Flowers take charge of the Co-op Bank?

 

[Bricklayer]

Businessfunding,

am i getting this right are you suggesting that Lawrence Tomlinson has been in prison recently if so i'm sure he'd like to hear your comments.

The RBS is rotten to the core and should be closed down. How dare they sit on the moral high ground closing good companies down due to technical breaches on their agreements. when they've had the biggest corporate loss in history.

 

[fisicx]

The RBS is rotten to the core and should be closed down.

And your evidence for this where?

Do you enen understand the difference between retail, commercial and investment banking?

 

[businessfunding]

Businessfunding,

am i getting this right are you suggesting that Lawrence Tomlinson has been in prison recently if so i'm sure he'd like to hear your comments.

No. I'm suggesting that whatever 'research' was done on his background, it is unlikely to be far reaching. I know precisely nothing about the man in question.

 

[Bricklayer]

fiscx,

i understand the difference between right and wrong and when a bank asks you to remove an asset from an A & L statement in order for them to obtain a government guarantee.

I've a file over 100 pages on the RBS showing how they have miss sold a loan and lied thoughout the complaints process.

What difference is retail commercial and investment? maybe its retail rip off joe public commercial rip off business's and investment get the money from the FFL scheme at .5% to use to invest with?? and then pay themselves all the big bonus's.

If the average person on the street commits a crime they are dealt with if the banks commit crimes nothing is done about it?

Pompus git

 

[fisicx]

I've a file over 100 pages on the RBS showing how they have miss sold a loan and lied thoughout the complaints process.

How does that make them rotten to the core?

It means in one instance they may be wrong but it's the same with every bank. Do we close them all down?

 

[NastyWest Victim]

Sorry posted in error.

 

[Bricklayer]

I'm not insulted i'm used to people trying to patronise me you're no different.

Try reading this its more than one instance

http://www.ianfraser.org/1-trillion-timebombs-rbs-must-defuse/

Many many instances of the RBS at its worst.

Can we the British taxpayer afford to prop up ailing banks.

At the very least it should be nationalised with offenders dealt with in the courts.

Every week the RBS feature in one scandal or another in the case of the EFG loans that's yet to come out.

 

[beasty]

And your evidence for this where?

Do you enen understand the difference between retail, commercial and investment banking?

Something most angry posters (Not saying on here) but on newspaper threads etc have no clue about

Not knowing the difference between retail operations and high risk investment arms of banking and how they differ and saying BANKING and BANKERs as if these are all comparable.. hmm not good

This is anger aimed at retail banking when the Investment bankers are the ones most people probably want to be upset with, mind you they only did what most would do, if you have a no personal risk and huge rewards gamling with other peoples money you must gamble !

Talk about a tangent

 

[Travelling Sam]

My story is a little different, but I believe RBS almost killed our company despite not banking with them. I'm still to this day fuming with their behaviour, and the fallout continues to this day.

My company is in an industry where Merchant Accounts are critical - and very difficult to get because we are seen to be high risk, which is fair enough. Relationships have been nurtured, terms improved over years and we are very careful not to rock the boat.

However a relatively new merchant acquirer targetted our industry, and in 2010 made an offer for our merchant account business with excellent terms that we accepted (along with many companies in the same industry - hey we are a high turnover industry - so I suppose it inflated their figures rather quickly).

At the end of 2011 it was announced that RBS had made a private equity investment in the XXX Group. Our merchant facility was with XXX, which is a division of the XXX Group. We had been advised that because of the furore about RBS's banking practises, they may well be looking to remove any of their business practices that had an element of risk. But, as a company we were doing well, cash flow was healthy, business was steady, we'd reduced debts.

One summers night I was out at an informal industry event at the end of a great month, checked my emails, and there it was - and email headed 'Closure of Account'. Reading through it had the words '30 days notice - we are sorry but this decision is final'.

It was a generic cut and paste email with repetition, basic spelling errors and untruths. Of course we appealed - we had our accountants provide support about how healthy we were, but irrespective of how we tackled it the reality was that they were closing our account no matter what.

They had said "We, in Our reasonable discretion, determine that Our relationship with Your business represents increased risk of loss or liability to Us" but we were in a healthy and strong position - ironically stronger that at anytime since we had worked with them. Their statement was patently untrue and a catchall that couldn't be proved.

It set it that they didn't care for the truth, they were eradicating our industry from their portfolio. I subsequently heard that numerous other companies had had the same e-mail, again only a few months after being courted by them. What I despised was they were putting our company at massive risk - yet they couldn't be bothered to put a decent generic e-mail out - i.e. they were closing the account under "clauses16.3.11 and 16.3.11 of our Terms and Conditions"

The trouble is, it can take 2-6 months to get a new merchant account. As far as I was concerned - we were doomed - we couldn't last without the ability to take debit / credit cards. But, next morning, I set about tidying up financials and applying for every merchant account going. I also stopped all of our marketing - as I genuinely thought we would be closing at the end of the month. I'm sure you can't take new business if you think you're closing down?

To cut a long story short, by some miracle (or sound financial figures as some may call them) I charmed another newcomer to give us a merchant account. Terms were worse of course as were new to them, and subsequently impacted our cashflow. But they accepted us, and we went live 4 days after our old account closed. But we'd lost 30 days business - more in fact as it took it a good few months to recover. And we're still here.

I'm sure some of you are saying 'well, it was their right etc' but they had courted us only a few brief months before RBS had taken an investment and subsequently "following their credit problems in the past, they are just being agressive in their business strategy and reducing and eliminating their acid stock creditors which unfortunately ignores small businessess position." (quote from a friend who helped our analysis of the situation).

I hope you're still awake, and I really appreciate this is not exactly relevant to the situation being discussed, but it's cathartic, and hey, another situation where RBS $crews small businesses.

 

[NastyWest Victim]

The banks thought otherwise. How were you planning to pay off the debt?

My wife spends much of her time working out how to save businesses. The problem is the fiinancial plans of the businesses often don't stack up and they rely on loans and finance to pay the bills. NaWest =/= RBS. THey may be part of the same group but they are not the same bank.

And what most people don't know is RBS has already paid back the bailout money. The government just doesn't want to sell it back as it's earning them a good few bob.

I took out the facility with NatWest but all correspondence comes from RBS global restructuring. My plan which I did with my bank manager was to buy as many properties interest only over 10 years & then pay it back as quickly as possible over the next 10 years as rents rose. My business model was to always be able to pay an interest rate of 15% which is what it was when I bought my first property in 1991. My business made a very healthy profit & they were fully aware of that. I had a time when my mother in law was ill when over half of the properties were empty & I still made all my payments on time & in full.
I was assured my loan facility would be renewed before I signed the agreement otherwise I would not have moved them from their original lender.

 

[NastyWest Victim]

My story is a little different, but I believe RBS almost killed our company despite not banking with them. I'm still to this day fuming with their behaviour, and the fallout continues to this day.

My company is in an industry where Merchant Accounts are critical - and very difficult to get because we are seen to be high risk, which is fair enough. Relationships have been nurtured, terms improved over years and we are very careful not to rock the boat.

However a relatively new merchant acquirer targetted our industry, and in 2010 made an offer for our merchant account business with excellent terms that we accepted (along with many companies in the same industry - hey we are a high turnover industry - so I suppose it inflated their figures rather quickly).


At the end of 2011 it was announced that RBS had made a private equity investment in the XXX Group. Our merchant facility was with XXX, which is a division of the XXX Group. We had been advised that because of the furore about RBS's banking practises, they may well be looking to remove any of their business practices that had an element of risk. But, as a company we were doing well, cash flow was healthy, business was steady, we'd reduced debts.

One summers night I was out at an informal industry event at the end of a great month, checked my emails, and there it was - and email headed 'Closure of Account'. Reading through it had the words '30 days notice - we are sorry but this decision is final'.

It was a generic cut and paste email with repetition, basic spelling errors and untruths. Of course we appealed - we had our accountants provide support about how healthy we were, but irrespective of how we tackled it the reality was that they were closing our account no matter what.

They had said "We, in Our reasonable discretion, determine that Our relationship with Your business represents increased risk of loss or liability to Us" but we were in a healthy and strong position - ironically stronger that at anytime since we had worked with them. Their statement was patently untrue and a catchall that couldn't be proved.

It set it that they didn't care for the truth, they were eradicating our industry from their portfolio. I subsequently heard that numerous other companies had had the same e-mail, again only a few months after being courted by them. What I despised was they were putting our company at massive risk - yet they couldn't be bothered to put a decent generic e-mail out - i.e. they were closing the account under "clauses16.3.11 and 16.3.11 of our Terms and Conditions"

The trouble is, it can take 2-6 months to get a new merchant account. As far as I was concerned - we were doomed - we couldn't last without the ability to take debit / credit cards. But, next morning, I set about tidying up financials and applying for every merchant account going. I also stopped all of our marketing - as I genuinely thought we would be closing at the end of the month. I'm sure you can't take new business if you think you're closing down?

To cut a long story short, by some miracle (or sound financial figures as some may call them) I charmed another newcomer to give us a merchant account. Terms were worse of course as were new to them, and subsequently impacted our cashflow. But they accepted us, and we went live 4 days after our old account closed. But we'd lost 30 days business - more in fact as it took it a good few months to recover. And we're still here.

I'm sure some of you are saying 'well, it was their right etc' but they had courted us only a few brief months before RBS had taken an investment and subsequently "following their credit problems in the past, they are just being agressive in their business strategy and reducing and eliminating their acid stock creditors which unfortunately ignores small businessess position." (quote from a friend who helped our analysis of the situation).

I hope you're still awake, and I really appreciate this is not exactly relevant to the situation being discussed, but it's cathartic, and hey, another situation where RBS $crews small businesses.

Thanks for sharing that travelling Sam. Your so right about them courting us & I believe I was told what I wanted to hear in order to get my business. As NatWest approached me. I didn't approach them.

 

[PaulThompson]

I took out the facility with NatWest but all correspondence comes from RBS global restructuring. My plan which I did with my bank manager was to buy as many properties interest only over 10 years & then pay it back as quickly as possible over the next 10 years as rents rose. My business model was to always be able to pay an interest rate of 15% which is what it was when I bought my first property in 1991. My business made a very healthy profit & they were fully aware of that. I had a time when my mother in law was ill when over half of the properties were empty & I still made all my payments on time & in full.
I was assured my loan facility would be renewed before I signed the agreement otherwise I would not have moved them from their original lender.

Unfortunately this was common practise in those days, round about the time that our good friend Gordon Brown finally abolished boom and bust!

We're still refinancing portfolios for clients in the same situation who are just coming up to the end of their 5 year review, from all the main banks!

Taking early action can help, although it depends on how amenable they are being!

Brokers can often help and should give free advice as to what is available (we certainly do and I'm sure that BusinessFunding would as well) but the main point is that there are many banks out there, lending money, and that you might not have heard of the one that you need for your business.

 

[NastyWest Victim]

Unfortunately this was common practise in those days, round about the time that our good friend Gordon Brown finally abolished boom and bust!

We're still refinancing portfolios for clients in the same situation who are just coming up to the end of their 5 year review, from all the main banks!

Taking early action can help, although it depends on how amenable they are being!

Brokers can often help and should give free advice as to what is available (we certainly do and I'm sure that BusinessFunding would as well) but the main point is that there are many banks out there, lending money, and that you might not have heard of the one that you need for your business.

Thanks Paul. I did attend a property show in Milton Keynes a couple of weeks ago & hooked up with a lender I have never heard of before. Although since the receivers took over the properties the are do nothing no upkeep or repairs so the properties are falling into disrepair. If the neighbours ring them they just say they are an estate agents & its nothing to do with them.

 

[Bricklayer]

I wonder??

Not sure but it may be worth keeping and eye out for further developments in the FT this week?

One story which may come out is the EFG abuse?

Bringing the scandal a bit nearer to the BIS's front door...you never know?

 

[Alan R Price]

According to numerous newspaper reports, the RBS GRG issue is under investigation by the Serious Fraud Office. Tomlinson is quoted as saying:

"If it is proved that this is systemic and institutional fraud - and there is quite a lot of evidence from people within the bank that this is the case [my italics] - then the relevant action should be taken. And if people have had their livelihoods stolen from them - we should see people go to jail."
​

It will be interesting to see the outcome of those investigations. The media will be rubbing their hands.