Employing in Philippines - I'll never hire in UK again.

opamop

Free Member
Mar 17, 2011
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I will to try to point to you on Eastern block(Estonia, Latvia, -cheapest is Ukraine, Belarus, then Poland and Russia. Because i am from that places, i am defenately sure, that it is closer, work ethics even better, cause people motivated to do job properly or you will not pay. In that countries salaries sometimes no paid by months. So stable income - all what they looking. And if they are programmers or webdesigners - they are talented and crazy about it. The law in that countries gives you massive freedom like employer.
Me personally had been working in one design studio, now i am even thinking just represent them here, because they quality - awesome. If you really need serious talented people to rely and to speak with them on good english, I am open to discuss it. They do flash-php websites, printing products of all kinds. They are n1 in my back country.
 
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I have to say this has been one of the best threads I have come across on UKBF for a long time! Well done OP for raising and tackling an issue which is probably one of the single most important challenges faced by UKPLC in the years ahead.

So many opinions and for the first time I have seen a real groundswell of people in the UK who are small businesses that know hiring in the Philippines (and other developing countries) provides significant benefits to their bottom line).

UK Government, along with Social Policy think tanks in the UK, the US - and other "developed" countries really need to wake up and smell the coffee on this issue. This dramatic shift in work patterns, the potential offered by the internet and labour exchanges like freelancer.co.uk in enabling small businesses to tap into lower cost labour on the other side of the planet in minutes - and to dip in and out of this labour pool as and when required is going to be huge. Its impact will be profound. The challenge is for UKPLC to accept, embrace and harness this opportunity - and not get left behind!

Right now - 70% of the world's population still aren't online. They are connecting - fast - and one of the first things these people are doing online is looking for opportunities to increase their lot in life, to raise their level of income and to support their families.

The reality of the next few decades is that work will no longer be a physical place such as an office - it will be something people do - where they want to, when they want to.

Small businesses and individuals need to look after themselves and carve their niche in this new economic world. You need to do what's best for you and your family. If that means hiring labour in the developing world - then, absolutely, you should do so.

Yes this will pose budget issues for the government - less money for them to spend on marketing and advertising, less money to spend on the military and bureaucrats, less money even for the NHS and Education. Certainly less money for foreign aid and propping up dictators. Let the people decide where their money goes - better to hire a VA in Egypt and put the money straight into their hands, then to send billions to the regime to pay for luxury London mansions and holiday homes.

Globalisation and outsourcing doesn't need to be bad news for UKPLC. The challenge in the UK is to see this as an opportunity, to capitalise on it and use it to our advantage. To be at the forefront of an inevitable global trend, to lead the way not follow up the rear.

Having access to this global pool of talent at the click of a button paves the way for a new creative boom and revolution in the UK. An entrepreneur can now come up with a great business idea and have it up and running for very little cash outlay. The powers that be need to act now to raise aspirations in the UK - to improve the education system and stop failing future generations. Give them the skills, tools, knowledge and passion to succeed in the new world.

Its not all about opportunities for entrepreneurs either. A UK based graphic designer can tap into the labour force to take on an understudy in the Philippines or elsewhere who can take on the more mundane elements of their work - short-listing images from stock libraries for example - this enables said designer to use their time more effectively, to nurture relationships with clients, to seek out new clients and to focus on the aspects of their business they love - design and creativity.

A web development firm can do much the same - take on juniors overseas to handle the run-of-the mill activity while they focus on project management, maintaining client relationships and getting things done.

If we look on the other side of the fence, 1m people leave the Philippines each year in search of work - mothers leave children, husbands leave wives. Many head to the Middle East to take up roles as domestic helps, drivers, or in what was a booming construction sector.

Now, sites like Freelancer.co.uk together with British businesses are reversing this trend. A well qualified person in the Philippines can take advantage of the internet and use their skills while not only staying in the Philippines - but staying in the comfort of their own home - watching their children grow each day, seeing their family flourish - at the same time they have the opportunity to earn far more then they would working 18 hours a day in Dubai as a maid, or 12 hours a day on a construction site. This means that not only are Western businesses saving money - but you are giving people fresh hope and opportunity. People who earned less than $10 a day can now earn between 3 and 10 times that while UK entrepreneurs can still get work done for 40 - 90% less than you would pay in the UK - that's a win - win for everyone in my book.

I am really excited about the future. Its not going to be easy for this Island nation to adapt, to lead the way and to make sure nobody gets left behind. But you only control your little piece of the equation.

UK Gov needs to handle the bigger picture. Do what's best for you and your business and let the think tanks and policy people work on balancing the books and making sure disadvantaged people get a fair lot. If that means more taxes on businesses, tightening up loopholes which see multi-billion corporates paying pennies or less in taxes and even trimming back even more quangos - then needs must.. we need to not only survive - but thrive in this new world and that means acting now to embrace and take advantage of the opportunities.
 
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Good post TM. Is freelancer the best site to advertise on?

I would like to think so - but I am biased - my job is to make it that - I head up UK operations for Freelancer. Should have made it more clear by signing off my post, sorry.

There are other sites, but Freelancer has the most diverse and active user base.
Try it - would love to hear your feedback.
 
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Well it's a sad day in this country when it's a better idea to hire someone from the Philippines. No disrespect the them but if this trend continues the unemployment levels are going to raise through the roof. Isn't it a legal hell hole hiring someone outside the EU?

Not a legal hell hole at all - they are freelance contractors, subbies, whatever - they work for themselves and resposnible for all the taxes and stuff their side - you are just paying an invoice for services provided - couldn't be easier - way simpler than hiring someone in-house and you save a packet on HR, Admin, Office Space, NIC's, Insurance, the list goes on..
 
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her Majesties government and many others across the globe have pushed businesses into making the choice between employing in the UK and employing offshore.

If there was a LEGAL alternative to petrol/diesel at a far lower cost, I am certain people wouldn't think twice and would use it, whatever it was, and as long as it was safe etc.

Yet when people employ offshore others scream and shout FOUL!
 
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Lets imagine, for a moment, that the doomsayers are right, and that outsourcing employment overseas will cause massive unemployment here, with a consequent collapse in consumer demand and both company and personal taxation revenue for the government decreasing markedly.

The Welfare State, (the one we borrow 25% to pay for at the moment) will become unaffordable. People will have to work to live without the security blanket we used to be able to afford. Competition for jobs will force rates down, at least in the freelance and informal markets.

And those children in the UK lucky enough to benefit from our expensive, encompassing but not necessarily effective education system will secure outsourced work from places like China, Korea, India and some others.

So, outsourcing now should ensure our kids' kids have work.
 
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@Dawg - too true. There was an article in a recent issue of Time magazine which espoused the same view - yes some jobs (often the ones people in the UK don't want to do - or can't compete for on a global stage) will go overseas - but as India, China, Philippines and other countries increase their disposable income - they will become consumers - of products, services and goods which the UK, the US and other developed nations produce or own the intellectual property for. Nike Trainers, Levi Jeans, Apple Computers and so on (yes - all American) but there is also room for the likes of Neal's Yard, Reggae Reggae Sauce, King of Shaves, Molton Brown and any other UK retailers and manufacturers to get a piece of the action be it through online or bricks and mortar operations. There is nothing stopping UK entrepreneurs thinking out of the box and saying hmm, yeah so why don't I setup an operation in the Philippines which will meet the needs of these consumers, or go into business with a Philippine entrepreneur to get my product, idea, business to market over there. The world doesn't revolve around the UK - and just as our jobs can go abroad - so can our businesses - even small ones - its not just GE, HP and Microsoft that can get a global footprint anymore - think beyond our borders - there's a pretty good chance that's where your future income lies.

What's more - this new class of consumer will want to learn English (TEFL jobs galore - China is massively hungry for English teachers, as is Indonesia to highlight just two example) - so, lets stop thinking in such a protectionist and insular way about things - its real, its happening - deal with it - some jobs will go - but new opportunities are there for the taking..
 
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I have been living and working in Asia for over 4 years now.

I formed a company in the UK a few years ago... 5 months after i decided all of the costs and regulations was too much for a start up. I disolved it and formed a Hong Kong company.

I now have staff in the Philippines and China and also able to hire freelance workers in the UK.

IF i did NOT relocate my business to Asia, its quite likely that my business would have failed and i would not be hiring anybody and I could have been another unemployed on the system.
 
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UK entrepreneurs can still get work done for 40 - 90% less than you would pay in the UK - that's a win - win for everyone in my book.
I am not an economist so I find it difficult to understand how taking money out of the UK economy and sending it to people in third world countries is a win win
for me?

The world doesn't revolve around the UK - and just as our jobs can go abroad - so can our businesses - even small ones - its not just GE, HP and Microsoft that can get a global footprint anymore - think beyond our borders - there's a pretty good chance that's where your future income lies.
My world revolves around the UK and depends on it's prosperity. No matter how you try to twist it, it's totally wrong to suggest that any more than a very limited number of business people in the UK would ever benefit from moving jobs abroad. In fact it's not just wrong it's ludicrous.

We cannot all teach English in China. :rolleyes:

.
 
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D

Deleted member 59730

BDW read the post above, it is clear, had that emlpoyer not moved abroad, they would not be contributing anything to your economy and would in fact be a drain on your economy.

But someone else would!

A business set up near me a few years back with 3 shops. They specialised in buying stock at bankrupt auction sales at dirt cheap prices and selling very cheap. They managed, by their tactics, to put over a dozen long-standing shops out of business. Everyone buying cheaply abroad is making it harder for local business to survive.

I import from Italy, not because its cheaper but because I get the best quality and service there.
 
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But you import? so does that make you a better class of importer then? Sorry i don't get it.

The argument here has to be brought down to its most basic form and that appears to be that importing is bad!

or

If I am wrong can someone explain the difference between importing goods, and importing services, because to me theya re one and the same.
 
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BDW read the post above

I did read it and the logic defies me. Moving business and jobs abroad is damaging to the vast majority of people in the UK.

Granted some business people will do alright thank you but that is all. I don't have the answers and you guys can try to justify and spin this all you like but all outsourcing abroad does for the majority of people affected by it here in the UK is put them on the dole.

.
 
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I did read it and the logic defies me. Moving business and jobs abroad is damaging to the vast majority of people in the UK.

Granted some business people will do alright thank you but that is all. I don't have the answers and you guys can try to justify and spin this all you like but all outsourcing abroad does for the majority of people affected by it here in the UK is put them on the dole.

.
So ALL outsourcing is bad and by the same token ALL importing is bad.

So what about the companies that outsource their admin, but manufacture in the UK? What about the companies that create wealth in the Uk by outsourcing part of the work abroad?

Life is not as balck and white as you are painting it is it? Surely not?
 
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Your words, not mine.


Well obviously my words, but I am trying to get a grasp on what the problem is.

You have one poster slagging off 3 retailers for importing low cost items which put others out of business, while at the same time admitting importing himself? To me the acti of importing is either ok or not, or is there (as I suggested) some sort of importation quality control which means that you can import as long as it is not low cost, kinda like importi snobbery :D

So how about you answer the questions I posed then BDW, the scenario where a manufacturing company in the uk outsources payroll and other services like customer service for example. is that bad?
How about a company that creates far more money in the UK via sales, than it outsources. e.g. £1m in outsourced labour, compared to £50M in uk sales (and associated jobs)

I am trying to get a handle on this black and white statement you made here
but all outsourcing abroad does for the majority of people affected by it here in the UK is put them on the dole
how can making a UK company more profitable, creating wealth in the Uk, be 'putting them on the dole'? Or again are we down to outsourcing is Ok as long as it doesn't cost UK jobs? I genuinely struggle to find any agreed demarkation here beyond protectionalism and NIMBY ism :(
 
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Podge

Free Member
Jan 13, 2011
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The way I see it and as much as I don't like it if the british consumer is prepared to spend their money on cheaper imports then we don't really have an argument against employers spending their money on cheap outsourced labour. Both are affecting the quality of life in the UK.
 
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Most countries seem to think so.;)

Balance of payments and all that stuff.

The more we do for ourselves the better off we are.

See:

Industrial revolution.:)

Earl
Complete absolute rubbish.
See: Trade, specialization, comparative advantage, economics 101.
Importing is a form of outsourcing. British wealth was built on importing and exporting, (outsourcing and being outsourced to). Wealth creation has never worked on isolation, doing it ourselves, or sitting behind tariff walls.

The strength of the Industrial revolution, the wealth it created, was based on importing raw materials and exporting finished goods. The UK's comparative advantage was that we were first, and at the time did it better than anyone else. We no longer have that comparative advantage which is why we are no longer a major economic power, and are outsourcing production rather than finished goods.
 
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The world is changing and people have to understand that we have a global economy and just as in the past coal would go from one area of the country to another, the same is true but it crosses country boundaries. Fish is caught in the Uk, processed in China and shipped back for example. The companies catching, packaging, transporting, and retailing the fish ALL employ, and ALL make profits. BUT if the massive cost of processing wasn't outsourced, then that line would not be profitable, and all the others who are employed as a result would lose out!
 
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Deleted member 59730

But you import? so does that make you a better class of importer then? Sorry i don't get it.

The argument here has to be brought down to its most basic form and that appears to be that importing is bad!

Think level playing fields. Some countries have high standards of health, safety, education etc etc. Others with much much lower standards, and in some instances serious human rights abuses have lower wages. Importing from a low wage/low living standards country undermines high wage/ high standards country's economy.

I import print from Italy because I get better service and quality than I can in the UK. The price is very similar and the wages in Italy are also comparable to printers' wages here.
 
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Think level playing fields. Some countries have high standards of health, safety, education etc etc. Others with much much lower standards, and in some instances serious human rights abuses have lower wages. Importing from a low wage/low living standards country undermines high wage/ high standards country's economy.

I import print from Italy because I get better service and quality than I can in the UK. The price is very similar and the wages in Italy are also comparable to printers' wages here.


And presumably you insist on full disclosure of raw materials provenance to ensure none of your moral standards were breached anywhere along the supply chain. This includes ensuring that all timber used for a phot frame for example has complete suypply chain transparency.

As I said previously, it is down to import snobbery :D
 
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Deleted member 59730

And presumably you insist on full disclosure of raw materials provenance to ensure none of your moral standards were breached anywhere along the supply chain.

As I said previously, it is down to import snobbery :D

Nothing to do with snobbery. I happen to use the most environmentally sound paper available but I am not being moral about this.
 
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The world is changing and people have to understand that we have a global economy and just as in the past coal would go from one area of the country to another, the same is true but it crosses country boundaries. Fish is caught in the Uk, processed in China and shipped back for example. The companies catching, packaging, transporting, and retailing the fish ALL employ, and ALL make profits. BUT if the massive cost of processing wasn't outsourced, then that line would not be profitable, and all the others who are employed as a result would lose out!

See in the short term sounds great,but wait till the cheapo labour countries catch up with western wage rate a la Japan.

http://www.therecycler.com/news/15108/Minimum-wage-increases-in-China.aspx

Earl
 
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The strength of the Industrial revolution, the wealth it created, was based on importing raw materials and exporting finished goods. The UK's comparative advantage was that we were first, and at the time did it better than anyone else. We no longer have that comparative advantage which is why we are no longer a major economic power, and are outsourcing production rather than finished goods.

Just to bring you up to speed laddie.

It was coal and iron that brought about the industrial revolution.:p

Earl
 
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Without trade, imports and exports, (for instance cotton) there would have been no use for iron machines powered by coal. Without raw materials to put through machines nobody would have bought or made expensive iron machines and employed men to dig coal up to run those machines with.
Without domestic or export markets for the machines made of iron, the machines would not have been made.
Without trade, imports and exports, there would have been a very small, sad Industrial Revolution, more like an Industrial Whinge, (why does that seem pertinent to today?)

Laddie.
 
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Nothing to do with snobbery. I happen to use the most environmentally sound paper available but I am not being moral about this.

Ah apologies we appear to be debating different things. The htread is debating the economic rights and worngs of outsourcing (importing services). I thought you were arguing that outsourcing is wrong, but importing (same thing different name) is OK as long as the imports are of a high enough standard, which was why I used the term 'import snobbery'.

Seems like your position is another thread on its own really.

Apologies for the misunderstanding.
 
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Deleted member 59730

Without trade, imports and exports, (for instance cotton) there would have been no use for iron machines powered by coal. Without raw materials to put through machines nobody would have bought or made expensive iron machines and employed men to dig coal up to run those machines with.
Without domestic or export markets for the machines made of iron, the machines would not have been made.
Without trade, imports and exports, there would have been a very small, sad Industrial Revolution, more like an Industrial Whinge, (why does that seem pertinent to today?)

Laddie.

The Industrial Revolution started here in Cornwall.

http://www.trevithick-society.org.uk/trevithick.htm for a bit of background.
 
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So ALL outsourcing is bad and by the same token ALL importing is bad.

So what about the companies that outsource their admin, but manufacture in the UK? What about the companies that create wealth in the Uk by outsourcing part of the work abroad?

Life is not as balck and white as you are painting it is it? Surely not?

That's right it's not black and white.

They could be out sourcing the lesser works abroad in order to be able to employ here.
 
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Lovely theory.;)

But I suspect the bottom line is cheapo labour.cheapo goods,bigo profits.:)

Earl


Of course economics plays a massive part, but that isn't the point being made. The point is that outsourcing can actually protect jobs as well as cost jobs. Outsourcing assembly for instance could mean that production can remain in place while assembly closes down. So YES it could mean that the asembly jobs are lost, but the manufacturing jobs have been protected. it is no good arguing that the production jobs were lost so that is bad, because the alternative would have been to close the plant entirely.

Hopefully that illustrates what i am trying to say, in that outsourcing can actiually prevent total closure of businesses.
 
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