Being an Employer Sucks!

[and180y]

Employee joins last year. After a few weeks she is off for two weeks due to early pregnancy bleeding. (pregnancy is big surprise to her apparently ) after here being back a few weeks discrepancies in her pricing are noticed and mention is made of this. We get a phonecall at the start of the next week saying that she wont be in as she has had a rough night, fast forward another week with no contact and we get a sick note saying she is off with work related stress and workplace density. (We invite her to a meeting to discuss this but she doesn't show) Fast Fast forward 9 weeks and she is still off with work related stress and about to go on maternity leave we think. She hasn't been in contact and hasn't handed in a mat1b and given her reason for being off we are wary of contacting her.
Is she taking the piss or what?

 

[E Storey]

She has under 1 years service, which is in your favour. however being pregnant raises all sorts of other issues.

I would suggest you book a free initial appointment with a specialist employment lawyer. There are a number on these forums who I'm sure could "confidentially" advise you.

I would also advise you not to post any further details on this forum!

 

[Olly Culverhouse]

She might be taking the piss but best to speak to a HR consultant to get the full picture and what your options are.

 

[and180y]

She might be taking the piss but best to speak to a HR consultant to get the full picture and what your options are.

I did speak to one. Their advice was, remember to lube up when you bend over.

 

[sjbeale]

You need to set up a meeting in writing to discuss these issues with her. You can offer to have the meeting at your premises, at her home or on neutral ground. Give her the right to be accompanied. If she has not supplied you with the MAT B1 she has no entitlement to maternity leave/pay. For all you know she may not still be pregnant - you need to know.

If she won't cooperate and have a meeting with you must provide a second opportunity to meet in writing stating that if she does not show you will take a decision on her continuing employment in her absence.

If still no show and no provision of maternity paperwork you must take the decision whether to dismiss her.

You must take control of this situation back as she seems to have the upper hand.

 

[IANL]

Join the FSB (Federation of Small Business) for any future issues. They have a great legal helpline and will detail all the proceudures and insure you if these fail. I have used many time over the last 15 years. Had to make two pregnant ladies redundant. No issues.

In fact you could either Join now and get decent legal advice and guidence expect you wont get the insurance element as It is under way. Circa £ 150 per annum

In the alternative I can suggest a specialist HR person who has a law degree as well.!! She is very good

Ian.

 

[Consistency]

If you have any free legal advice on anything then take it up as a matter of urgency. Of course she is taking the rise, getting paid to screw you. It is perverse. It is just wrong, I am a great hater of employment law.

FSB legal helpline is good, I have used it a lot of times when it comes to employees. It may not say what you want to hear but it will tell the truth. You may end up having to pay a lot to get rid of her. I can only wish you luck and I do sympathise with your predicament.

Being less than one year is normally in your favour but being pregnant that is one of the areas where she can claim discrimination and so you need to make sure you are getting it right.

Proper legal advice is very important. FSB if you are a member will guide you through and will be there every step of the way. If you are not a member then try something else to get legal advice but I cannot stress this enough.

Good luck.

 

[Vending Siting Services]

Don't forget ACAS - free advice. You can speak to them and they will advise on action to take.

Barbara

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Employee joins last year. After a few weeks she is off for two weeks due to early pregnancy bleeding. (pregnancy is big surprise to her apparently ) after here being back a few weeks discrepancies in her pricing are noticed and mention is made of this. We get a phonecall at the start of the next week saying that she wont be in as she has had a rough night, fast forward another week with no contact and we get a sick note saying she is off with work related stress and workplace density. (We invite her to a meeting to discuss this but she doesn't show) Fast Fast forward 9 weeks and she is still off with work related stress and about to go on maternity leave we think. She hasn't been in contact and hasn't handed in a mat1b and given her reason for being off we are wary of contacting her.
Is she taking the piss or what?

In order to be entitled to maternity leave, there are steps the employee has to go through: advising you

• that she is pregnant
• the expected date of birth (this only needs to be done on the MAT 1 if you specifically request it)
• when she expects the maternity leave to start.

Once this is received, you must write to the employee within 28 days confirming the start & finish of the maternity leave.

You have every reason to contact her, despite the reasons she is off – you need to support her & manage the sickness absence as best you can.

If she has not supplied you with the MAT B1 she has no entitlement to maternity leave/pay. For all you know she may not still be pregnant - you need to know.

:| I didn't think there was any legal obligation for employees to provide the employer with the MAT B1 form in order to have the right to maternity leave/pay! Employees simply have to confirm (by the 15th week before the expected week of childbirth (EWC)) the EWC & the date she intends to start maternity leave; neither written confirmation of the intended start of maternity leave or the certificate of pregnancy have to be provided unless the employer requests these (section 4, Maternity and Parental Leave etc. Regulations 1999).

If still no show and no provision of maternity paperwork you must take the decision whether to dismiss her.

Dismissing the employee sounds extremely risky. Equally, you could phone up all the helplines you care to, but without reviewing the documents carefully, no helpline is going to be able to give you meaningful advice – you need to have the position reviewed meticulously (like checking you've written to the employee within 28 days of being told the maternity start date), not simply getting general advice available over the phone!

Being an employer might suck, but it will suck a lot more if you don't manage this properly and unfairly dismiss a pregnant employee!



Karl Limpert

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Meant to link to Section 4 of The Maternity and Parental Leave etc. Regulations 1999.

Pertinent parts are:

4.—(1) An employee is entitled to ordinary maternity leave provided that she satisfies the following conditions—

...

(b) if requested to do so by her employer, she produces for his inspection a certificate from—
...

(2) The notification provided for in paragraph (1)(a)(iii)—

(a) shall be given in writing, if the employer so requests...


Karl Limpert

 

[and180y]

It came to light that she had lied on her application form and had done exactly the same thing with her previous employer with regards to pregnancy. There is also the scenario of the discrepancies.
We would have let her go inside her trial period for all of the above however she was clever enough to be off sick and has remained so.
The system is too far skewed towards the feelings and "rights" of employees.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

We would have let her go inside her trial period for all of the above however she was clever enough to be off sick and has remained so.

Her being off sick doesn’t prevent you doing anything! It’s more that she was cleverer than you in tricking you not to act.

However, if she has lied on her application, there could be grounds for dismissal as the trust that must exist between employer & employee would be open to doubt.

The system is too far skewed towards the feelings and "rights" of employees.

If employers fail to take the opportunities available to them, this does skew the system in favour of employees. There are still opportunities to dismiss this employee due to performance/capability, but you need to deal with that very carefully.



Karl Limpert

 

[ccp consultancy]

I await to be torn to pieces on what I am going to write now...

It is catch 22, I am not saying that I condone this behaviour at all HOWEVER

Many female employees will often conceal early pregnancy, as it would be very unlikely if they admitted to being pregnant on any application form that they would be invited to interview / offered a job. (I am not sure in light of the equality act stance on pre health questionairres if you could legally get away with asking this on an application form now anyway - unless of course the job entailed working in an environment such as a drycleaners and the chemicals are harmful to the unborn child). - and so I am not sure if dismissing due to "fraudulent completion of application form" will hold up in these circumstances [I now duck under my laptop screen as all the cyber attacks start]

as frustrating as this seems you will just need to manage the situation that you are now faced with, you need to contact her in any event to complete risk assesments and to establish the real reason for her absence - work stress - due to what? - .If possible seperate out the maternity related issues and the normal sicknesses [but to be honest trying to manage a pregnant employees sickness down the absence management route can prove to be quite tricky and I would not advise doing this without physcially allowing and employment lawyer / employment specialist to review this to make sure all issues are addressed. On a forum we can only provide generalist advice and this will not stand up in an employment tribunal.

If you do take the incredibly risky chance of dismissing - remember that all pregnant employees must be provided with written reasons for dismissal irrespective of length of service.

 

[gemd89]

An employee has to be working for you around 26 weeks before the 15th week pregnant to qualify for SMP from you - has she been working this long? I just qualified in my last job as i started in november and fell pregnant in november. I went back end of may and fell pregnant 4th june - there was nothin my employee could do - unfortunately after i had had 2 pregnancies/babies in 2 years it wasnt worth going back to work so had to quit my job.

And if i was pregnant again and went for a job i wouldnt tell them i was pregnant - as then the employer is unlikely to give you the job and i wouldnt employ a female of maternal! Age.

Gemma

Gemma

 

[ccp consultancy]

and i wouldnt employ a female of maternal! Age.

And as women are now freezing eggs, and science has advanced so much that even women of 65 years are having babies, and children as young as 13 are having babies - why don't we just go back to not employing women at all, and instead tie them back to the ovens where they belong

30+ years after the birth of the SDA we are still having these neandothal views

 

[saxondale]

30+ years after the birth of the SDA we are still having these neandothal views

bloody hippy ...........

 

[Consistency]

And as women are now freezing eggs, and science has advanced so much that even women of 65 years are having babies, and children as young as 13 are having babies - why don't we just go back to not employing women at all, and instead tie them back to the ovens where they belong

Sounds good to me. Though I think we should keep the right to employ women if they are suited to the position. Jobs like nursing, certain positions in the police, working with children, secretarial duties etc.

If we got back to basis, we could start again and maybe undo this stupid mess where there are rights for everyone other than the White straight male with no disabilities and are able to think on time.

 

[steve23]

Sounds good to me. Though I think we should keep the right to employ women if they are suited to the position. Jobs like nursing, certain positions in the police, working with children, secretarial duties etc.
quote]

Provided they are good looking....

 

[saxondale]

I`m proud my wife hasn`t had to work for the last 14 years, she`s quite happy too.

 

[gemd89]

My mum is 47 and i cant imagine her having a baby now - she wants to enjoy her old age!!! hehe! She loves her grandkids though. My grandma is 65 and i cant imagine her having a baby either - i think 65 is way too old and unfair on the child and 13 way too young!

If i ever need an employee then i will just employ men brilliant - but they cant multitask!

Gemma

 

[Consistency]

Sounds good to me. Though I think we should keep the right to employ women if they are suited to the position. Jobs like nursing, certain positions in the police, working with children, secretarial duties etc.
quote]

Provided they are good looking....

.
I am equally against this kind of plastic promotion where someone rises through the ranks on perceived good looks, very often it is caked make up with expert precision.

I believe someone should be in a position through being able to do the job that they are in and be reliable and loyal. We as employers after all pay them to do a job and if they do that job well then that is worth more than looks. Much more than looks.

A bloke I know was high up in a business and he was doing the interviews. A straight bloke who thought on the same lines as I did. He had a tart who was used to being promoted and used to getting the jobs she wanted due to her looks. He spotted this a mile off and was having none of it.

He asked the question, what would you do if you were in a meeting and it started to get a bit heated as you would not be authorised to give the kind of deal that he wanted or words to that effects.

She looked at him with a smile and a bit twinkly and silly and then started puffing her bits out a bit and said well I can be charming. This went on a bit and rather than saying he would let her know he simply said No, we don't need that kind of "charm". He was a lot harsher than that and I find that quite admirable and look up to that direct approach that is straight and much needed in this plastic fantastic society.

It is also said when decent hardworkers are being overlooked in place of bimbos that sit there filing their nails. A person should be employed purely on merit, not because of a disability, gender, age, etc and an employer should be able to decidewho they want to do the job and give it to who they want.

 

[garlex]

As a small business employer, I can certainly sympathise with you. I think one can understand when you read about your predicament why so many employers run shy of employing young women not yet married or just married.

Nevertheless, when this kind of thing happens and I do think there is a huge amount of valuable advice from previous respondents. I think you just have to be hard-nosed about it as you'll certainly suffer finanacially and with a lack of resource later. One of the things I did some time ago was to write a contract which had to be signed by both parties, whilst allowing a certain amount of days in a year on full pay, I think we decided on five for the whole year, we expect self-certification and they only get their statutory sick pay thereafter, naturally there ar a number of other clauses which allow for differnt circumstances.
Its hard enough running a business as it is without this kind of problem.

 

[and180y]

An employee has to be working for you around 26 weeks before the 15th week pregnant to qualify for SMP from you - has she been working this long? I just qualified in my last job as i started in november and fell pregnant in november. I went back end of may and fell pregnant 4th june - there was nothin my employee could do - unfortunately after i had had 2 pregnancies/babies in 2 years it wasnt worth going back to work so had to quit my job.

And if i was pregnant again and went for a job i wouldnt tell them i was pregnant - as then the employer is unlikely to give you the job and i wouldnt employ a female of maternal! Age.

Gemma

Gemma

We don't have any dates related to the pregnancy, infact we don't even know if she is pregnant apart from gossip on social networking sites.

 

[and180y]

Her being off sick doesn’t prevent you doing anything! It’s more that she was cleverer than you in tricking you not to act.

However, if she has lied on her application, there could be grounds for dismissal as the trust that must exist between employer & employee would be open to doubt.


If employers fail to take the opportunities available to them, this does skew the system in favour of employees. There are still opportunities to dismiss this employee due to performance/capability, but you need to deal with that very carefully.



Karl Limpert

From posts on her social networking site she is actually doing the tasks that we employ her to do outwith work and whilst off sick.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

From posts on her social networking site she is actually doing the tasks that we employ her to do outwith work and whilst off sick.

:| Doing the same type of work for someone else? Is this something you can explain further on here? If not, please feel free to PM, and I'll try to advise.


Karl Limpert

 

[and180y]

:| Doing the same type of work for someone else? Is this something you can explain further on here? If not, please feel free to PM, and I'll try to advise.


Karl Limpert

I have sent you, a rather long, pm. Sorry.

 

[ccp consultancy]

"After a few weeks she is off for two weeks due to early pregnancy bleeding. (pregnancy is big surprise to her apparently "

So is she pregnant or not - as an employer you need to manage sickness absence, and at the very least on her return to work complete a return to work interview - she should either self certificate or provide doctors notes. If there is nothing here that suggests that she is pregnant then you must manage this in accordance with any employee that has a problem sickness record.

If this person is under a years service then you need to consider extending probationary period or parting company [presuming she is not pregnant]

I am afraid that the onus is on you as the employer to manage this situation. It would appear that the employee is running rings around you, and so you really must rebalance the power here

 

[and180y]

"After a few weeks she is off for two weeks due to early pregnancy bleeding. (pregnancy is big surprise to her apparently "

So is she pregnant or not - as an employer you need to manage sickness absence, and at the very least on her return to work complete a return to work interview - she should either self certificate or provide doctors notes. If there is nothing here that suggests that she is pregnant then you must manage this in accordance with any employee that has a problem sickness record.

If this person is under a years service then you need to consider extending probationary period or parting company [presuming she is not pregnant]

I am afraid that the onus is on you as the employer to manage this situation. It would appear that the employee is running rings around you, and so you really must rebalance the power here

Well that was the reason on the sick note at that time, however we (apart from the social network posts) have nothing to say that she is or isn't.
She has been off for nearly 3 month with work related stress and may or may not be pregnant.

 

[ccp consultancy]

Oh Goodness gracious it gets worse

3 months with work related stress - so what if the work related stress contributes to her loosing her baby - I can just see this now....

Are you aware of what triggered this "work related stress"

Have you conducted a home visit, most good employers will instigate the long term sickness procdure after 4 weeks - a contact visit, finding out how the employee is, and more importantly any support assistance that you can provide to support the employee back to work. Are there doctors certs to cover this sickness period.

At this visit you will clearly see if she is pregnant - as she must be 5/6 months pregnant

So you can then request the MATB1 form. If she returns to work you MUST complete a pregnancy risk assesment.

 

[and180y]

Oh Goodness gracious it gets worse

3 months with work related stress - so what if the work related stress contributes to her loosing her baby - I can just see this now....

Are you aware of what triggered this "work related stress"

Have you conducted a home visit, most good employers will instigate the long term sickness procdure after 4 weeks - a contact visit, finding out how the employee is, and more importantly any support assistance that you can provide to support the employee back to work. Are there doctors certs to cover this sickness period.

At this visit you will clearly see if she is pregnant - as she must be 5/6 months pregnant

So you can then request the MATB1 form. If she returns to work you MUST complete a pregnancy risk assesment.

We tried to have a meeting, she failed to attend.
What triggered the work related stress? At a guess issues related to moving house. We only have a temporary address that she was at amongst her move.
Yes she has produced fit notes.

 

[ccp consultancy]

We tried to have a meeting, she failed to attend.
What triggered the work related stress? At a guess issues related to moving house. We only have a temporary address that she was at amongst her move.
Yes she has produced fit notes.

OK - so you started the process , which is good. But you must maintain the momentum.

So it is not work related stress then, in reality it is personal (but you will not be able to go against what her GP has said, you would need a medical expert to confirm / provide alternative explanatins for the absence - and this may not be worth the expense IMHO).

My general view (and without knowing the facts it is hard to give anything more than this)

* You reschedule meeting

* If she does not turn up you invite for another meeting, making it perfectly clear that you need to discuss absence from work, if she does not attend you will conduct meeting in her absence (make sure that you do this, and that you take notes of what was / would have been discussed - you will note the questions that you wish to ask - there will be no answers as she is not here to answer - you will then make a decision of action based on the facts in front of you)

* If she does attend - discuss absence etc as previously advised - make decision based on facts [if she is pregnant then you will have to rethink - she will be going on maternity leave soon anyway]

How long has she been employed with you

If you need any more specific advise than this, then you can send me a PM

HTH

Clare

 

[and180y]

OK - so you started the process , which is good. But you must maintain the momentum.

So it is not work related stress then, in reality it is personal (but you will not be able to go against what her GP has said, you would need a medical expert to confirm / provide alternative explanatins for the absence - and this may not be worth the expense IMHO).

My general view (and without knowing the facts it is hard to give anything more than this)

* You reschedule meeting

* If she does not turn up you invite for another meeting, making it perfectly clear that you need to discuss absence from work, if she does not attend you will conduct meeting in her absence (make sure that you do this, and that you take notes of what was / would have been discussed - you will note the questions that you wish to ask - there will be no answers as she is not here to answer - you will then make a decision of action based on the facts in front of you)

* If she does attend - discuss absence etc as previously advised - make decision based on facts [if she is pregnant then you will have to rethink - she will be going on maternity leave soon anyway]

How long has she been employed with you

If you need any more specific advise than this, then you can send me a PM

HTH

Clare

After her failure to attend the first meeting we wrote to her requesting another meeting, she failed to respond to the letter after signing for it.
She holds a senior position in the company so is well aware of her contractural commitments. (that said she has failed to sign the contract)

 

[Consistency]

She holds a senior position in the company and yet she has hardly worked?

Was she promoted on her implants or something?

Maybe I am on the wrong thread. People should always work their way up but this happens less and less often.

 

[cjd]

It's an added expense and it's slamming the stable door after the horse is larking around in the pool but I would advise anyone taking on staff to join an outsourced HR firm.

They provide you with employment contracts and internal procedures and keep them up to date plus give proper advice in dealing with these situations.

Importantly, they also provide insurance cover that so long as you follow their procedures, they will represent you at a tribunal and if you lose, they cover the costs.

There are a few out there, just google HR Services. (We went from a recommendation - it doesn't appear on page 1)

 

[and180y]

It's an added expense and it's slamming the stable door after the horse is larking around in the pool but I would advise anyone taking on staff to join an outsourced HR firm.

They provide you with employment contracts and internal procedures and keep them up to date plus give proper advice in dealing with these situations.

Importantly, they also provide insurance cover that so long as you follow their procedures, they will represent you at a tribunal and if you lose, they cover the costs.

There are a few out there, just google HR Services. (We went from a recommendation - it doesn't appear on page 1)

We are members of a trade organisation, we consulted their legal help-line. It was they who suggested lubing up before we bent over.

 

[and180y]

She holds a senior position in the company and yet she has hardly worked?

Was she promoted on her implants or something?

Maybe I am on the wrong thread. People should always work their way up but this happens less and less often.

She held a similar position in a competitor organisation, we were looking to fill a position, she applied and got the job.

 

[TheBigCheese]

After her failure to attend the first meeting we wrote to her requesting another meeting, she failed to respond to the letter after signing for it.
She holds a senior position in the company so is well aware of her contractural commitments. (that said she has failed to sign the contract)

I'm afraid I don't have anywhere near enough experience to advise you on dealing with the problem but I would say from what you have written you don't seem to take a tough enough stance with your employees.

How on earth has she not signed a contract, I thought it was a legal requirement to get the contracts sorted out within 30 days of employing someone...?

With my employees the day they started I handed them their contract in a brown envelope and told them to read it, if they agree to it sign it and bring it back to me asap and if they don't we can discuss it and if they didn't (one was absentminded) I kept reminding them until they did.

 

[and180y]

I'm afraid I don't have anywhere near enough experience to advise you on dealing with the problem but I would say from what you have written you don't seem to take a tough enough stance with your employees.

How on earth has she not signed a contract, I thought it was a legal requirement to get the contracts sorted out within 30 days of employing someone...?

With my employees the day they started I handed them their contract in a brown envelope and told them to read it, if they agree to it sign it and bring it back to me asap and if they don't we can discuss it and if they didn't (one was absentminded) I kept reminding them until they did.

Easier said than done if they are off ill?

 

[cjd]

We are members of a trade organisation, we consulted their legal help-line. It was they who suggested lubing up before we bent over.

You have my sympathy........it seems if a ******** is as determined as this, they hold a lot of the cards. But you can do a lot by sticking from the start to a lot of very precise procedures and enforcing them one by one.

G'luck

 

[and180y]

You have my sympathy........it seems if a ******** is as determined as this, they hold a lot of the cards. But you can do a lot by sticking from the start to a lot of very precise procedures and enforcing them one by one.

G'luck

We once held a job open for an employee off on maternity leave only for her husband to call two days before she was due to start back that she wouldn't be returning.