Being an Employer Sucks!

[Consistency]

She held a similar position in a competitor organisation, we were looking to fill a position, she applied and got the job.

Now this is what EXACTLY proves my point about working from the bottom and working their way up and I have been shouted down on many occasions but we will disagree with some things and that is ok.

There are cases such as a vet where if someone has been a vet for 10 years and you have a practice and one retires and they want to come to you, they would not go straight to mopping floors.

However that is not that often, I really think no-one in a company of mine would get into a high position like this as even if they have references to say that they have been super cool etc, that reference could have been an arrangement so the previous employer could get rid of her quicker. I really do not think references are worth the paper they are wrtten on.

To be in a position and to receive promotion then that should be on merit and it is better to look at what staff you have there and promote them, you know their strengths and weaknesses.

There is an advert in our local paper every night "Are you looking for a high flier" with a woman perfectly groomed in a grey suit. I would not be tempted at all.

This woman has been a massive hindrence to you and I do sympathise. We see this everywhere, even in the police where when the rank structure is ignored there is much less respect for the job. If good performances are shown and good nature and signs of loyalty to you, then they I think should be looked at.

 

[Consistency]

We once held a job open for an employee off on maternity leave only for her husband to call two days before she was due to start back that she wouldn't be returning.

I think you could do with one of those squeegy stress ball things.

The things employees do, what they can get away with and the ridiculous time consuming procedures we have to follow really do drive us to want to do a lot more than crush a grape.

 

[and180y]

Now this is what EXACTLY proves my point about working from the bottom and working their way up and I have been shouted down on many occasions but we will disagree with some things and that is ok.

There are cases such as a vet where if someone has been a vet for 10 years and you have a practice and one retires and they want to come to you, they would not go straight to mopping floors.

However that is not that often, I really think no-one in a company of mine would get into a high position like this as even if they have references to say that they have been super cool etc, that reference could have been an arrangement so the previous employer could get rid of her quicker. I really do not think references are worth the paper they are wrtten on.

To be in a position and to receive promotion then that should be on merit and it is better to look at what staff you have there and promote them, you know their strengths and weaknesses.

There is an advert in our local paper every night "Are you looking for a high flier" with a woman perfectly groomed in a grey suit. I would not be tempted at all.

This woman has been a massive hindrence to you and I do sympathise. We see this everywhere, even in the police where when the rank structure is ignored there is much less respect for the job. If good performances are shown and good nature and signs of loyalty to you, then they I think should be looked at.

The problem in our industry is that there is a shortage of workers due to the government and it's brilliant WFTC scheme, no one wants to work full-time.

 

[Parthelan]

Was she promoted on her implants or something.

Oh, I just know I shouldnt have laughed, but that was too funny

 

[billie1]

I'm no expert on this, but perhaps employers should consider the cost of sick pay to the company when drawing up contracts. I know some big organisations employ casual workers or freelancers and don't offer sick pay. Some go as far as not paying holiday to freelancers. I think small employers should seek professional advice when drawing up contracts as sick pay is crippling small companies.

 

[ccp consultancy]

I'm no expert on this, but perhaps employers should consider the cost of sick pay to the company when drawing up contracts. I know some big organisations employ casual workers or freelancers and don't offer sick pay. Some go as far as not paying holiday to freelancers. I think small employers should seek professional advice when drawing up contracts as sick pay is crippling small companies.

There is no requirement for an employer to pay company sick pay - only SSP, and this is paid through HMRC

Freelancers - by the nature of their self employment are not entitled to holiday pay

Casual workers are entitled to holiday pay - on a pro rata calcualtion of what they have accrued (based on average of previous 12 weeks salary)

Agreed employers should ensure that their contracts are correctly worded, not just in terms of sick pay but on a whole raft of clauses

The only thing that an employer can do is ensure processes are correct from the start of the relationship, and then keep on top of any problems as they arise, and ensure that they are dealt with promptly and in accordance with current legislation.

 

[TheBigCheese]

Easier said than done if they are off ill?

I hear what you are saying, especially if you are sending her letters by recorded delivery and she's not acknowledging them despite signing to say they are received.

However you did say that she was employed for a few weeks before signing off, I'm certainly not getting at you but just pointing out (for any new employers reading this thread as well) that it's a good idea to get the contract done on day one then you are in a much stronger position.

I do feel very sorry for the position you are in and I hope you manage to get it sorted soon with minimal expense and stress.

Good luck!

 

[Itsasecret]

Hi And180y

I am interested to know how the situation all turned out for you and who you sought advice from.

Can you give any details as to how the whole situation got resolved (or not) with your employee?

I have been PM'ing Employment Law Clinic who posted on your thread about a problem we are having and have been very impressed with his advice.

Hope yours got resolved in your favour! Who would be a boss eh??? Jees

 

[and180y]

Hi And180y

I am interested to know how the situation all turned out for you and who you sought advice from.

Can you give any details as to how the whole situation got resolved (or not) with your employee?

I have been PM'ing Employment Law Clinic who posted on your thread about a problem we are having and have been very impressed with his advice.

Hope yours got resolved in your favour! Who would be a boss eh??? Jees

I can't say too much on the original case (still ongoing).

We have had occasion to need the services of Karl Limpert (Employment Law Clinic) on a couple of other cases and his advice, help and representation have been invaluable. No jargon or legalese just the facts.
In my experience and from what I read on here he goes above and beyond to nurture and guide employers in matters releating to employment matters/disputes.
Whilst he runs a business and has to eat, his advice on here is refreshingly genuine and not geared to spamming every post to gain work.
Oh and if you ever have the opportunity to meet him you will realise he is an all round top bloke.

 

[Itsasecret]

Thank you!

I get the very same impression from karl too! A truly decent and straight talking bloke!

Hope your situation gets resolved soon and without too much added expense!

N

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

I can't say too much on the original case (still ongoing).

The Lord Chief Justice said yesterday that cases that go on for years are a source of real fury. He was talking around the Hamza extraditon case, but nearly two years later for an employee in their first year of employment, and the case is still ongoing; not as serious as an extradition, so on the scale of things the time involved in these cases should create real fury.

Hopefully will be resolved very soon now though...

We have had occasion to need the services of Karl Limpert (Employment Law Clinic) on a couple of other cases and his advice, help and representation have been invaluable. No jargon or legalese just the facts.
In my experience and from what I read on here he goes above and beyond to nurture and guide employers in matters releating to employment matters/disputes.
Whilst he runs a business and has to eat, his advice on here is refreshingly genuine and not geared to spamming every post to gain work.
Oh and if you ever have the opportunity to meet him you will realise he is an all round top bloke.

Thank you Andy, very kind of you to say. I look forward to catching up next month.



Karl Limpert

 

[and180y]

For those of you who followed this thread and were awaiting the outcome, it concluded today.

Expertly represented by Karl of the Employment Law Clinic whom I'd like to thank for his support and efforts along the way. He presented our case with professionalism and clarity both through the initial tribunal and through the EAT (which he won).
The case was scheduled to be re-heard in front of a fresh tribunal over a 3 day hearing starting today. Unfortunately the employee withdrew at 10.46pm last night and formally to the tribunal at 8.30 this morning.

The case ultimately ended as it began, with the employee refusing to engage.

I can't recommend Karl's services highly enough.

 

[David A]

Shame it wasn't the County Court.

You could have gone for a wasted costs order.

Mind you, there is provision to claim against the employee - I made a lass redundant a few years ago, and she started down the road of seeing £££ in front of her eyes by making an application to the ET.

I decided to play hard ball, and in the initial response to the pre-ET paperwork I received stated that the claim was vexatious, and thus we would be seeking costs.

She withdrew the claim.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Shame it wasn't the County Court.

You could have gone for a wasted costs order.

Mind you, there is provision to claim against the employee - I made a lass redundant a few years ago, and she started down the road of seeing £££ in front of her eyes by making an application to the ET.

I decided to play hard ball, and in the initial response to the pre-ET paperwork I received stated that the claim was vexatious, and thus we would be seeking costs.

She withdrew the claim.

The reasons for withdrawing the claim were a fear of costs - even though she still felt she had a good case (not a view shared by the Appeals Tribunal, who described her as having "but a thin case") - but given the short notice, the expenses incurred (including the wasted money spent on printing bundles that Scubaprint have been great in providing, but which had to be left for shredding, never even opened), and the fact she had left it until the very last minute to withdraw her claim, I did apply for costs anyway.

I don't believe the judgment on that will be with the parties yet (I'm still in Edinburgh, so haven't received my post), and as the claimant may come across this thread, I'm not going to let her know how much was awarded yet...!


Obviously with a good case, costs shouldn't be a fear, so withdrawing the claim does at least demonstrate that she knew she was fairly dismissed.

The most annoying thing is that after this thread began, she was promptly (and fairly) dismissed, but it's taken two years of tribunal hearings - including a judgment in her favour that had to be set aside at the EAT - to get this resolved for the employer.

While frustrating due to the delayed & perverse original judgment, it was an enjoyable case to do, and after many visits to Edinburgh I'm now even discovering that this city has more to it than a hotel with a tribunal & pub around the corner! Working with and180y has been most enjoyable too, and hopefully we've all learnt from this experience.


At the end of it all, we did manage to dismiss an employee of around 7-8 months pregnant (as well as denying maternity leave & maternity pay), and that dismissal (and other decisions) has never been shown to be anything but fair. Given the pregnancy, abuse of the tribunal procedures did follow together with costs for the employer, but these employees are not exempt from formal action where appropriate & necessary.



Karl Limpert

 

[Newchodge]

Did you find any difference dealing with the Scottish jurisdiction? The only time I appeared (in Glasgow) I found the experience very different from English tribunal behaviour.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Did you find any difference dealing with the Scottish jurisdiction? The only time I appeared (in Glasgow) I found the experience very different from English tribunal behaviour.

In Scotland the law obliges citizens to allow whoever knocks on their door to use their toilet.

Karl was holding it in for nothing!

You may not fish on Sundays.
It is illegal to be a drunk in possession of a cow.
Trespassing on someone else's land is legal.
You are presumed guilty until proven innocent for some crimes.


That's how different it is

 

[and180y]

You are presumed guilty until proven innocent for some crimes.

That's only in employment tribunals.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Bring back the good ole haggis hunt!

Many a year me and my brother use to run up and down Arthur's Seat searching for those 3 legged lil mammals... did we ever find any?! No!!

Gawd they're quick!

 

[Itsasecret]

so pleased to hear your case is settled and sounds like it falls as far in your favour as it could!

Did the employee ever go on to actually give birth or was the alleged pregnancy completely phantom

Its been intriguing reading the thread and interesting... nowt as weird as folk as the saying goes!

Amazes me people have the balls to actually try this on - and she was apparently quite senior - not lower down the chain where you might expect the work avoidance sort of behaviour!!!!!

Well done.... to both you and Karl!!!

Our situation here is that now 2 girls are on Mat leave.
One apparently has no intention of returning - but obviously hasnt told us this - and so we are paying for our company car to sit in her driveway for the next 12 months, while the boss has to borrow his wife's to come to work as the company cant afford to get another car just yet (as his lease expired)... plus we have to pay for her car insurance and petrol allowance.

Not to mention the recruitment costs for temp employees, who may then leave and we have to pay fees to then find a full time member of staff...

Still... without them both here it is much calmer, less stressful and a happier environment.. no arguments or hormones around!!!!! One of them even made the temp cry by shouting at her when she didnt understand something during the handover! We had stern words but the bosses were not in favour of disciplining!!!!

 

[Chris Ashdown]

There is no requirement for an employer to pay company sick pay - only SSP, and this is paid through HMRC

Freelancers - by the nature of their self employment are not entitled to holiday pay

Casual workers are entitled to holiday pay - on a pro rata calcualtion of what they have accrued (based on average of previous 12 weeks salary)

Agreed employers should ensure that their contracts are correctly worded, not just in terms of sick pay but on a whole raft of clauses

The only thing that an employer can do is ensure processes are correct from the start of the relationship, and then keep on top of any problems as they arise, and ensure that they are dealt with promptly and in accordance with current legislation.

SSP is only paid through HMRC when you are a tiny company about 2-3 people unless things have changed, after that you have to pay it out yourself and cannot claim it back