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Can talking about students in general be considered to be defamatory

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bdw

I have a page on a website where I advise people who are having a website designed to ensure that they are dealing with ethical designers. On this page I suggest that when there are no contact details on a website it may be worth questioning why.

I offered four examples where web designers may have reasons for not offering full contact details. In the first of these I mentioned that they may not be a real web design firm and stated that they could be students who eventually qualify and get a "real job" leaving any previous clients high and dry.

I then went on to describe another three other situations where peopl may not want to offer contact details. This morning I got a very aggressive complaint from a student web designer who asked me to take this comment down. He said...
As a student who owns and runs a legitimate tax-paying web design firm, employing two people, I find this remark highly offensive and inflammatory. After I graduate, the last thing I would do is to leave previous clients without help and a presumption such as this infuriates me and stigmatizes students for the sole purpose of making a sale. This tactic is abhorrent, the comment is discriminatory and I request it's immediate removal.
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I slightly amended what I had written but I refused to remove the point I had made and explained that it was based on stories related to me by clients during the last nine years. I also said...
What puzzles me is that if you are legitimate then clearly it does not apply to you. It makes it quite clear that is not directed at legitimate businesses so why on earth do you find it “offensive and inflammatory”?
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This afternoon I got another email from this guy with a final demand that I remove it. He informed me that he had raised a complaint through my local trading standards office and that he had reported me to my hosting company, the National Union for Students in Scotland and Google.

Later this afternoon I got an email from my hosting company (1&1) demanding that I take it down because it was "in breach of UK defamation laws". I contacted trading standards and they confirmed that he had been on to them and they had advised him that it was not their area.

Can anyone say if his complaint could be upheld and if my web hosting company (1&1) were right to take this action? All I was doing was offering advice to potential clients. I was not defaming all students.
 
We 're not aware that you can defame a class of persons under English law, where an individual has to show that others will think less of them as a result of the defamatory statement. We would have thought the scottish law provision would be very similar.

Has the complainant made any reference to whether his claim is under English law or Scottish law?

There could of course be commercial risks (eg bad press add publicity) for your business as a result of maintaining the statement, even if it is lawful.

Will be interested to hear what other posters have to say!

We're not a firm of solicitors and the above is intended as general guidance only.
 
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Im not overall certain on this but do know that to have a case for deformation or loss of earnings they would require solid evidence to prove their loss was a direct result of your comments.

However, the best and easiest way to deal with this is simply to remove the comment and let the small guy believe that he has won. Its hard to bite the bullet on things like this but Im sure that you havnt really got time for this.

I would however, go back to your hosting firm and tell them that you are considering putting your hosting elsewhere due to their attitude towards you on this matter.
 
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Flame the little twerp.
Trying, (and suceeding) in using 1&1's skirts as a defence, pah, twaddling buffoon.
I'm usually against naming and shaming as it's usually guaranteed to backfire, but in this instance I would do exactly that.
(And change from 1&1 to someone with a spine.)

Is he going after all those who say students are drunk/wastrels/etc? No. he's exploiting one comment for his own pecksmith purposes and deserves to be shot down.
 
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Now I can see both points of view on this, the student has the right to feel agreeved as you seem to be tarnishing all student companies with the same brush which is not called for, there have been many companies that have left customers high and dry, yes these may include students, but also profesionals, upperclass, lower class and everyone else in the middle.

I know you are just trying to help people, but by saying that having an address on a UK commercial website (a site that sells a product or service) is supposed to display full contact details on the site by law.

As for the hosting company, they are just responding to a complaint and probably never even looked at the article, however if you was my client, then no I would not make you take it down or would I suspend your account, however I would still state what I have typed above. :)

So If I was you then I would remove it and put a more factual statement rather than one that can be seen as predudiced to any minority group.
 
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If I publish a statement that "all students with red hair are crooks", then I could not be guilty of defamation, or of discrimination in the absence of any legislation outlawing discrimination against red-haired students as a minority.

On the other hand, if I publish a statement that "all red-haired students at Bloggo University are crooks", and there happens to be only one red-haired student at Bloggo University so that the statement could only be taken as referring to that individual, then I could be sued for defamation by the person concerned.

This is not a legal opinion but advice is nevertheless given to the best of my ability and knowledge.
 
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So If I was you then I would remove it and put a more factual statement rather than one that can be seen as predudiced to any minority group.
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I have done so but it goes against the grain to concede anything to this guy and to 1&1 when it was clearly not my intention to defame anyone.

I have responded to 1&1 and I await their reply. It may be the straw that breaks the camel's back in my dealings with them. I put hundreds of pounds of business their way every year and they treat me like a criminal based on a report from a person who does not even properly identify himself.

(I have emailed him twice today asking him to send me his full contact details. He has not replied.)
 
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bdw said:
I have done so but it goes against the grain to concede anything to this guy and to 1&1 when it was clearly not my intention to defame anyone.
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I knew what you were saying, but you still have to be carefull as there are two many people out there who are willing to try and distroy you and your business just for the sake of it.

So I don't blame you for not wanting to edit it, and for beeing peed off with your host, I would feel the same but sometimes it just aint worth the hastle.

PS don't expect to hear back from the trouble maker, he got what he wanted.
 
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Dawg said:
Flame the little twerp.
Trying, (and suceeding) in using 1&1's skirts as a defence, pah, twaddling buffoon.
I'm usually against naming and shaming as it's usually guaranteed to backfire, but in this instance I would do exactly that.
(And change from 1&1 to someone with a spine.)
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You mention flaming ?:mad:
The above is a unseemly and aggresive post . You are certainly not above 'naming and shaming' as you say you are. Some of us would call it flaming

You recently twisted a message (using your own words to change mine) I posted on here as if you are some kind of judge and jury and arbiter of all that is just in the this forum. Not so.

You are right of course. Flaming will backfire on those that do it and will continue to do so. In your case as well as for everyone else.

OP: I would be on your side but I am not qualified to advise. Just one of those things that happens from time to time. Such a litigious society one must watch ones P's and Q's around everyone . Litigation stalking everywhere..
 
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I have just received a reply from this person related to my request that he forward his contact details.

Thank you for your request, but I will not comply. I do not give out personal information.
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As a student who owns and runs a legitimate tax-paying web design firm, employing two people, I find this remark highly offensive and inflammatory. After I graduate, the last thing I would do is to leave previous clients without help and a presumption such as this infuriates me and stigmatizes students for the sole purpose of making a sale. This tactic is abhorrent, the comment is discriminatory and I request it's immediate removal.
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...public on here too now, so is he gonna slap 50,000 members with a writ too.

In his opening statement to you I would argue that actually is his intention to leave his client high and dry after he graduates.Ahhh the english language, you can get it to mean so many things.

What else does he want to argue about or have removed, the articles that mention students in all the newspapers and media.

I agree stick to what youve done so far and tell him to SEOFF!!!
 
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Don't be silly, you can't defame 'students' - they have no reputation to lose, nor would they want one.
 
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Sounds like your hosting company do not understand the law.

I'd personally be tempted to get a legal letter drafted and sent to your provider threatening them with any consequential loss you suffer if they terminate your services.

I'd also consider warning said student that any attempt to damage your reputation will result in you aggresively litigating against them.

I suspect they are taking the safe option (in their opinion).

Of course what I have suggested will cost money and I don't know if there is legal basis for it. I personally would speak to a decent lawyer if someone tried that on with me.
 
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Of course what I have suggested will cost money and I don't know if there is legal basis for it. I personally would speak to a decent lawyer if someone tried that on with me.
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It woud be nice to have the disposable income to pay for this but spending money on it would only make it a more bitter experience.
 
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Regarding my hosting company taking the safe option, I have just received a reply from them, "Further to your email please note that we are currently awaiting response from the complainants to confirm that the case is now closed."

It would seem that the guy who made the anonymous complaint is to be the judge and jury on this case. This is totally out of order and I have made my feelings known. I have been with 1&1 for nine years and paid them several thousand pounds during this time. They get an anonymous complaint from this guy and they immediately take his side and allow him to be judge and jury. It's not really on is it?
 
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I would be spitting blood as I am sure you are at the moment.

Probably best to have a think about this when you have cooled off!

I suspect the easiest option would be to change provider.

Maybe I would fire off a Data Protection subject request demanding all information they have recorded about you and said complaint. I'm sure they will remove the complaint's name from said info.
 
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Are you a sole trader?

Not sure if this would apply Ltd to Ltd. Sure someone else could advise.

I've certainlly used this against companies (and they don't like it one bit) as an individual previously.
 
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No you can't demand someone else's details under the act, only information about yourself. They will in all likelyhood remove his contact details.

The guy claims to be a legitimate business, yet refuses to pass on his contact details.

If he is a legitimate business, then HE should be compliant to UK law, which means business disclosure, he is breaking business disclosure laws by not disclosing ownership at the point of contatc :)

SO, fire back to him, ask him politely for his BUSINESS contact details, inform him that under UK law (something he obviously values so much as per his complaint), he MUSt disclose this information to you. Inform him politely that unless he passes the information on, that you will be left with no option other than contact trading standards for a breach of Uk trading law, and this time they WILL follow it through.

As a parting shot, inform him that he is traceable via his email company, and that passing that on to trading standards and HMRC (who will of course investigate potential earnings non disclosure) , could place him in a difficult situation.

My final words to him/her would be along the lines of 'make sure you know the size of the tiger in the long grass before you decide to pull its tail' :D
 
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I like it! :D

OldWelshGuy said:
No you can't demand someone else's details under the act, only information about yourself. They will in all likelyhood remove his contact details.

The guy claims to be a legitimate business, yet refuses to pass on his contact details.

If he is a legitimate business, then HE should be compliant to UK law, which means business disclosure, he is breaking business disclosure laws by not disclosing ownership at the point of contatc :)

SO, fire back to him, ask him politely for his BUSINESS contact details, inform him that under UK law (something he obviously values so much as per his complaint), he MUSt disclose this information to you. Inform him politely that unless he passes the information on, that you will be left with no option other than contact trading standards for a breach of Uk trading law, and this time they WILL follow it through.

As a parting shot, inform him that he is traceable via his email company, and that passing that on to trading standards and HMRC (who will of course investigate potential earnings non disclosure) , could place him in a difficult situation.

My final words to him/her would be along the lines of 'make sure you know the size of the tiger in the long grass before you decide to pull its tail' :D
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SO, fire back to him, ask him politely for his BUSINESS contact details,
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I like this idea but he contacted me using a Gmail address and I am sure he will say that he was making the complaint as a member of the public.
 
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He stated within the email that he runs a business and put forward details of his business. he would be hard pressed to get out of it as he was someone in business complaining about business practivce.

Had he not declared his business, he would have been outside of the disclosure laws. The downside is what part of the Uk he is in.
 
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I feel vengeful!

Would I be within my rights to put a feature on this on my website? Could I name him and post the email he sent me there as an example of who not to deal with?
 
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bdw said:
I feel vengeful!

Would I be within my rights to put a feature on this on my website? Could I name him and post the email he sent me there as an example of who not to deal with?
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I have to say that that is not a step I would recommend.
 
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But I did not enter into any confidence agreement with him. His contact with me was unsolicited and I would not have thought that he could claim defamation if all I do is report facts, i.e. what he said to me and I can back it up?

I cannot find any trace of him on the internet as a web designer and I very much doubt that he does have a business.
 
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bdw said:
I like this idea but he contacted me using a Gmail address and I am sure he will say that he was making the complaint as a member of the public.
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Have you googled his gmail address? It's amazing what you can find when you do that sometimes...

Regarding the original position, I think you need to leave 1&1 at some point - big hosts don't seem to care about their customers and this episode has proved just that.

I think as long as your original article said "some students may..." as opposed to "all students will..." then I can't see a problem from a legal side of things.
 
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I just re-read your original post:-

"In the first of these I mentioned that they may not be a real web design firm and stated that they could be students who eventually qualify and get a "real job" leaving any previous clients high and dry"


How on earth could that be considered defamatory?

I'm sure a lot of us were students once. Its true, students have partying and course work to complete.

If I was paying good money for design work, I know who I would't be relying on.

I actually think your comments were quite reasonable. I was shocked to hear your provider's decision on this matter.

Perhaps they could do with going back to University as well?
 
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As others have said, naming and shaming him may not be the best Idea as it could soon spiral out of control.

However...

There is nothing stopping you writing an article on your site explaining what has been happening, don't put anything that could come back and bite you on the ass, but outline how far some people go to protect their business, though they are too chicken to give you his business details :)
 
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I once had my Hosting suspended when I moved office. The other tenants had a similar business and didn't want the address on my web site for a day longer than necessary. They told the hosting company that the address was copyright, and my site was suspended. I wasn't best pleased, but did more, than just get my own back;).
 
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