Wordpress alternative

[gpietersz]

It's like Microsoft and Apple. MS got hacked all the time because the user base was huge compared to Apple.

That used to be true, but the i things (which run the same OS with a somewhat different GUI) probably put their installs well ahead.

Similarly with Android and Linux, although the entire GUI level is different to desktop Linux. In a terminal its very similar. ChromeOS is just a fork of Gentoo Linux. On top of that, Linux runs a lot of servers that are high value targets. The very high value ones, like banks and big tech companies, are pretty well secured, but there is an awful lot in between those and desktops that are frequently no better secured than the average desktop.

I think @antropy is right, in real life, you will find a lot of people do not do updates, and do use themes and plugins with security holes. Look at the number of people who come here and ask about what to do with a website that no one has updated for months or ever years. The API is not particularly helpful in developing secure plugins and themes either.

The important thing is not whether it is the fault of Wordpress or not, but whether painting a big target on yourself is a good idea.

BTW @antropy what CMSs do you like other than Concrete?

 

[antropy]

That used to be true, but the i things (which run the same OS with a somewhat different GUI) probably put their installs well ahead.

It's still true.

Web servers are secured by teams of experts.

Aunty Gladys's Windows desktop is not.

So Windows remains a big target.

Paul.

 

[gpietersz]

Web servers are secured by teams of experts.

I think you are optimisitc. There are a lot of high profile data breaches that are down to badly secured servers. Then a lot of SME servers are not well secured, and they are still are far more valuable target than Aunt Glady's Windows desktop.

That is not to say Windows is not a big target, but not in proportion to its desktop market share.

 

[UkAppCoder]

I have tried Wordpress and I did NOT enjoy it.

Matt Mullenweg, the founder of WordPress, dropped out of his political studies at university because he couldn't hack it. He took up PHP kiddie scripting because that was something he could hack. The result - WordPress! LOL!

 

[gpietersz]

> Matt Mullenweg, the founder of WordPress, dropped out of his political studies at university

So he dropped out of university - like Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Jack Dorsey and many others. Big deal.

 

[paulears]

Wordpress are keen - I registered, but didn't do anything - got a reminder. Then today I looked again and thought I'd go further so it asked if I wanted to host or use external hosting - I entered my existing domain, and they offered me a free trial - but after that finished they wanted £18 a month. That was where I stopped. I know I don't like it much, but £18 for just using wordpress on my own site is a bit too expensive. Adobe subscriptions are expensive, but you do get something for it - it know that if I set up a wordpress site, then it would sit there for ages with no input from me and I have to pay for the privilege? Nice emailed to ask why I didn't select them, which seemed a bit heavy - a real email from a real person, not a bot? I might look further at that one. wordpress is out 100%

 

[fisicx]

That’s because you were using Wordpress.com.

If you had installed Wordpress on your own hosting you wouldn't have to pay a penny.

 

[UkAppCoder]

> Matt Mullenweg, the founder of WordPress, dropped out of his political studies at university

So he dropped out of university - like Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Jack Dorsey and many others. Big deal.

As did Mark Zuckerberg. Can you see a pattern emerging here?

But some people drop out of university and then go on to delegate and produce top quality software, which is what I suspect Ellison did. These types of people are known as 'entrepreneurs'.

Gates and Mullenweg are two clear examples of people who drop out of university and then go on to produce rubbish and then inflict it on the rest of the world!

However, at least Gates has attempted to find good software developers in order to produce some top quality software. Mullenweg has undergone no such enlightenment, and won't even consider a rebuild by properly qualified software developers.

 

[gpietersz]

. I know I don't like it much, but £18 for just using wordpress on my own site is a bit too expensive

They have dropped some options. They used to have £3/month and £7/month plans until very recently (I mean a week or two ago). So I now agree with:

That’s because you were using Wordpress.com.

If you had installed Wordpress on your own hosting you wouldn't have to pay a penny.

Apart from the cost of hosting, that is.

 

[fisicx]

Apart from the cost of hosting, that is.

He already has hosting so there won't be any extra costs.

 

[fisicx]

Gates and Mullenweg are two clear examples of people who drop out of university and then go on to produce rubbish and then inflict it on the rest of the world!

In your opinion. Millions of users will probably disagree.

 

[UkAppCoder]

In your opinion. Millions of users will probably disagree.

I also have a very negative "opinion" about instant coffee, Coronation Street, heroine, the Labour Party, the Bay City Rollers, Kay Burly, and so on ad infinitum and nauseum, but I'm sure that in each case, millions would disagree with me!

Hang on a minute, what am I talking about? I love the Bay City Rollers! LOL!

 

[Alan]

So he dropped out of university - like Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Jack Dorsey and many others. Big deal.

And me

 

[UkAppCoder]

gpietersz wrote:

So he dropped out of university - like Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Jack Dorsey and many others. Big deal.

fisicx wrote:

In your opinion. Millions of users will probably disagree.

You're both quite right, lads. My apologies for my childish remarks about WordPress.

 

[gpietersz]

And me

Me too. Still ended up with two postgraduate degrees. I would rather have a few billlion though.

 

[Alan]

Mullenweg has undergone no such enlightenment, and won't even consider a rebuild by properly qualified software developers.

Bit of an insult to the core team volunteers that build WordPress. Mullenweg doesn't own WordPress. There are no paid people on the project. Sure some companies volunteer their staff's time to the project, including Mullenweg's company Automattic (as does my company). Does Mullenweg significant influence over direction - sure he does

The good thing about WordPress is that you too, as a properly qualified software engineer, you can volunteer your time to the project. There are dozens of 'teams' you could contribute too.

And if you get involved and bang on long enough about the architecture you could actually drive it the way you think it should go.

Or if that doesn't work for you, it is totally GPL so you can fork the system and start converting it yourself.

Although there is momentum from powering 40% of the web that is hard to ignore.

When the decision was made to modernise the javascript elements from jQuery to REACT for the editor, there was uproar in the community and a fork made - classicPress - but despite this classicPress take up in 3 years has only been a few thousand sites ( out of approx half a billion sites )

Imagine the resistance to re-engineering the backend into GoLang and NoSQL.

Also, my own theory, is that PHP is such a simple scripting language it is within the grasp of lesser beings than software engineers. In fact, even PHP in it's own right doesn't guarantee success, take for instance Drupal, something more 'engineered' and more loved by 'real developers' seems to be in a downward spiral.

Anyway that is my thoughts of the day.

I make my living out of WordPress. I chose WordPress not on any attribute except market share.

 

[UkAppCoder]

I make my living out of WordPress.

Hi Alan and other WordPress developers.

I joined this forum to help people, and also ask for help when I need it, and of course, I would also like to do some business here too.

I realise that I was being very unkind to you and others who rely on WordPress for some or all of their income, and this is why I was actually quite upset with myself soon after I posted my message.

The thing is, I'm not really like that in person! I know full well that everyone in a community like this should be looking after each other - not attacking each other.

So, sorry about my remarks, Alan. From now on, I'll think more carefully about how my messages affect others.

 

[ctrlbrk]

Drupal, something more 'engineered' and more loved by 'real developers' seems to be in a downward spiral.

What's your take on why that is?

 

[paulears]

I got an email from Wordpress saying my site had been updated? Odd, as I've been talking about trying Wordpress - so I tried the /wp-admin access and I needed a password reminder as it's been dormant there since 2016 it seems. I then logged in to see the example page. I fiddled and wrecked it. I uploaded the Muse site again and that now doesn't work. I tried to add a simple Wordpress page as a holding page and that then failed too, and now nothing works. the files are there, I can see them all using ftp - but I've clearly wrecked the thing. Oh well.

 

[fisicx]

It’s all fixable. You haven’t wrecked anything. All you need to do is delete/rename index.php

 

[paulears]

I'll work it out the Wordpress control panel just fails now.

 

[fisicx]

I'll work it out the Wordpress control panel just fails now.

It’s probably because you upgraded from such an ancient version. Make sure you are running php 8.0

 

[paulears]

This is the current state:
Status
WordPress
5.9.3
Plugins
Up-to-date
Themes
Up-to-date
Security
Critical security measures applied
PHP
8.0.17

my version seems to be 5.9, so pretty old.
EDIT it says I'm on the current version - PHP is 8?

Not sure how to cure the 500 error?

 

[fisicx]

Because you were upgrading from such an ancient version some of the plugins (or the theme) may have thrown a wobbly.

Rename all your plugins and see what happens. If you can get access you your dashboard you can reinstate your plugins one by one to find the culprit.

The 500 error is basically saying your DB connection is borked. Which doesn't really help as the whole shebang runs of the database.

 

[paulears]

I've no idea how to fix what I've done - I'm assuming the overwrite of the muse files has done the deed, and I can't figure out how to remove Wordpress altogether! I'll stick a ticket in. Serves me right really, but kind of reinforces my dislike for it!

 

[fisicx]

Serves me right really, but kind of reinforces my dislike for it!

Don't think anyone here is going to change your mind on this!

If you login to your hosting cpanel these is usually an option to remove wordpress.

 

[UKSBD]

I've no idea how to fix what I've done - I'm assuming the overwrite of the muse files has done the deed, and I can't figure out how to remove Wordpress altogether! I'll stick a ticket in. Serves me right really, but kind of reinforces my dislike for it!

If you are doing it via FTP

AFTER COPYING AND BACKING UP

I would delete all the Wordpress files and directories and do a clean install of Wordpress

Also check if there is a .user.ini file and if so, see what is in it
I had one on my site with auto_prepend_file in it which as soon as I tried to upgrade the PHP version stopped the site working

 

[paulears]

I'm trying to see if I can find the option to remove Wordpress altogether, as I didn't even know there was a Wordpress install on there - it wasn't functional but something I did enabled it and it didn't work. I'll get there. Cheers.

 

[gpietersz]

magine the resistance to re-engineering the backend into GoLang and NoSQL.

Please, just say no to NoSQL. It has its uses, but its usually used because so many developers find databases hard.

Also, my own theory, is that PHP is such a simple scripting language it is within the grasp of lesser beings than software engineers. I

There are quite a few simple languages, and PHP is a lot less simple than it used to be. I think the big appeal is the ease of deployment, and because it is supported by just about every shared host. Also, being popular and widely supported makes it easy to get started with it.

In fact, even PHP in it's own right doesn't guarantee success, take for instance Drupal, something more 'engineered' and more loved by 'real developers' seems to be in a downward spiral.

I think Drupal now falls between two stools. If you want a CMS that can be extended and has a good ecosystem, Wordpress wins. If you want to do something more custom there are a lot of good frameworks around which are better for "read developers".

Drupal's developers have recognised that and moved to Symfony, but it does not seem to have worked. For one thing, frameworks make it a lot easier to write a CMS, even a custom one, and a lot of people who want a framework like to do it that way.

 

[UkAppCoder]

Alan said:

Also, my own theory, is that PHP is such a simple scripting language it is within the grasp of lesser beings than software engineers.

I disagree. In fact, I would say it is the other way around!

A natural software engineer is less likely to pick up any programming language as quickly as a natural programmer/coder. I would say that I'm naturally a software engineer. (I have called my business UkAppCoder because this is the terminology which the general public seem to understand better - i.e. they don't know what a software engineer is, but they do know what a coder is.)

Engineers and programmers have their own skillsets, but each has to have a good working knowledge of the other's skillset.

A fairly good analogy is the building industry, where construction engineers would correspond to software engineers, and building site tradesmen would correspond to programmers.

A construction engineer wouldn't have a hope of competing with, say, an experienced joiner down on the building site, and a joiner wouldn't be able to compete with a construction engineer in the office/studio.

Similarly, a software engineer wouldn't have a hope of competing with a programmer when coding up an engineer's specifications, and a programmer wouldn't be as adept at specifying, modelling or designing software as quickly as a software engineer.

This is all related to MVC and the separation of concerns (as well as other software development concepts). Just as in the building industry, these concepts make the overall software development processes much more efficient.

Anyway, in my opinion, there is no such superiority/inferiority difference between engineers and programmers/coders. Experienced coders who specialise in a small selection of languages are awesome to watch and I really can't help feeling a little jealous of them!

 

[paulears]

During the wordpress 'upgrade' some code, not even wordpress code got corrupted - removing wordpress didn't fix it so I raised a ticket and they fixed it pronto - they can't quite work out how these few lines of code got changed? For me, I'm still looking now, but wordpress I just don't like.

 

[fisicx]

For me, I'm still looking now, but wordpress I just don't like.

And nothing wrong with that, it's not for everybody. I just think your experience has been tainted. If you spend a bit of time with someone who understands how to make it work you may discover it's not as bad as you thought. Most people I train on wordpress have an epiphany after about 20 minutes when they see how simple it is to do things.

 

[bigbuzzbelfast]

I have wordpress sites and I agree that you do have to spend a bit of time on them. But I found a great site thst is so easy to use and plugs into wordpress or it can be stand alone if you wish. I find that using this software adding products is so so easy there is even a great free app you can do it from on your phone once set up. Makes my life easier and I spend more time dealing with customers and orders than messing about with plugins and so so many updates and because wordpress is extremly popular its one reason why so many wordpress plugins and even wordpress itself gets attacked a lot by hackers.

 

[Alan]

@UkAppCoder thanks for the earlier apology BTW I deliberately don't get notified on post updates as it is too distracting.

Your analogy of Software Engineer is a little bit off.

In the construction world ( I don't know it that well ) you have structural engineers that do calculations that don't ever need to know how to lay a brick.

In the software world

"You can’t really be a software engineer without knowing how to programme - it’s a prerequisite of the job."

Source BCS - https://www.bcs.org/articles-opinion-and-research/6-skills-to-become-a-software-engineer/

In fact before the term was used we just called them Senior Programmers.

I have performed nearly every role in my 46 years career with software, from data centre ops, through programming, technical architect, business system analyst, database designer, project management to CIO and back. And now I do it all at once for my own business

 

[UkAppCoder]

Alan:
In the software world

"You can't really be a software engineer without knowing how to programme - it's a prerequisite of the job."

Source BCS - https://www.bcs.org/articles-opinion-and-research/6-skills-to-become-a-software-engineer/

You're absolutely right, Alan, it would be impossible, but an engineer doesn't have to be a super guru in any particular language. At university we used JavaScript, SmallTalk, C++, SQL (mainly standard), Sybase, MySql and Java on various modules, but only to illustrate various concepts - not to learn about any of these languages in depth. We also had to create a language similar to C, then use it to investigate various areas of computer science related to software engineering and the principles of programming.

However, any engineer worth their salt will also spend many hours on enriching their skillset through independent study, and going into more depth with certain languages.

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear in my previous message, Alan, but one of my points was that engineers and programmers should have a working knowledge of each other's jobs, and engineers should certainly be more skilled in programming than programmers should be in engineering. But at the end of the day, for the sake of efficiency, they should specialise, which means that an engineer is never going to compete with an experienced specialist programmer, and vice versa.

Alan:
In the construction world ( I don't know it that well ) you have structural engineers that do calculations that don't ever need to know how to lay a brick.

Hmm, I don't know about this. I can't imagine any construction engineer not wanting to get some experience down on the building site from time to time. Two of my brothers are joiners, and they have both helped to train budding engineers in the practical aspects of their professions. I would also guess that construction engineers would need to know about materials, standards, etc. and how they are used.

Alan:
I have performed nearly every role in my 46 years career with software, from data centre ops, through programming, technical architect, business system analyst, database designer, project management to CIO and back. And now I do it all at once for my own business

Sounds like you have plenty of valuable experience, Alan. It would be nice to have the pleasure of working with you sometime.

I have also played many roles in software development. A few years ago I started working with specialist coders who can implement engineering specifications faster than I can. I enjoy this very much, and I will always tend towards engineering, but I still love to work as a coder too. Everything is so much more efficient now. Projects can be completed much faster when I use specialists instead of doing everything myself.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

I started using Joomla years ago and still have several sites using it.

I found WP a pain, as it wasn't a CMS but a blogging platform. It is now a more credible CMS contender because of the community, but Joomla is still more flexible in terms of layout.

WP has way more plugins than anything else, but Joomla also has a great width and depth of bolt on's.

 

[Nicola78]

Here are top Five best WordPress alternatives you can use.

1. Wix
2. Shopify
3. Drupal. ...
4. Squarespace. ...
5. Ghost

Every platform have own advantage and disadvantage, Its all depend of your uses and requirements.

 

[fisicx]

Here are top Five best WordPress alternatives you can use.

1. Wix
2. Shopify
3. Drupal. ...
4. Squarespace. ...
5. Ghost

Every platform have own advantage and disadvantage, Its all depend of your uses and requirements.

Which website did you lift that from? Whichever one it was is wrong.

 

[gpietersz]

@Paul Kelly ICHYB what do you think you are doing, giving an answer that might help the OP when the rest of us have just got the discussion nicely derailed!

 

[Zak Willis]

Am going to say this to the wrath of some within this community. WordPress is great for simple websites and has an array of plugins. However, it is a content management system that requires expertise. Even if it is easy for people to figure out it takes time, mistakes can be made. The reason we hear a lot of positive things about WordPress is because those with a medium level of expertise can make a good income from delivering fairly standard websites - and absolutely, they can look attractive and perform well for most businesses.

Another challenge with websites is that really, they are just one part of an essential set of elements to channel custom your way. My company considers it to be more about Online Presence than a website.

The bigger challenge - portability and content is where WordPress and other CMS platforms fall down. Content Modelling is what we apply to our Web Data Platform approach. We focus more on re-usable content that can be dropped onto folders and consumed into a website without a CMS.

This is in no way an attempt to demean those who rely upon WordPress as a technology but we must not simply de-facto accept "It isn't a problem with WordPress, it must be how it was set up". There can reach a point where something heavier hitting than WordPress is required.

Anyway, have a great day.