Windsor Framework : Am I the only one shocked at what we're being asked to do to send stuff to Northern Ireland ?

[Customs Geek]

Yes I would agree it’s overkill for small businesses, particularly those who have never been involved in customs matters, but at the moment it’s what we have got to contend with if you want to trade with businesses in NI.

You do still have to answer the questions . If you answer ‘no’ you haven’t got something I don’t see that as a problem. You don’t necessarily need to know what it is to know you don’t have it.


The TSS has lots of information on its website if you wanted to find out and you can contact their advisors who will explain the application / registration procedures.

 

[Justin Smith]

Yes I would agree it’s overkill for small businesses, particularly those who have never been involved in customs matters, but at the moment it’s what we have got to contend with if you want to trade with businesses in NI.

You do still have to answer the questions . If you answer ‘no’ you haven’t got something I don’t see that as a problem. You don’t necessarily need to know what it is to know you don’t have it.


The TSS has lots of information on its website if you wanted to find out and you can contact their advisors who will explain the application / registration procedures.

They have, too much ! The fact they have all of that would be enough to make some small businesses think that is so complicated I do not even want to go there....
This is what my 'Welcome' E Mail "encouragingly" said :

As a new user:

• Head to the Beginner's area for some helpful tips on getting started.
• Visit the Trader tools for help establishing what declarations are required for your goods movement and how to complete these declarations
• Use the Jargon Buster to navigate the terminology of GB:NI trade
• Explore the Resolving Error Codes for help solving common errors on the TSS Portal
• UK Trade Tariff: volume 3 for CDS. Find the guidance, codes and procedures to use when importing or exporting goods when using the Customs Declaration Service (CDS).

I thought off that doesn't put people off nothing will !
My colleague pointed out that rather than have a "jargon buster", why not just not have jargon in the first place !

 

[Justin Smith]

Now I have got the TSS number (thanks Graham ! ) I have managed to move on to the next sections.

"Business activities"

The second question is :

What is the intended use of the goods the business is moving to Northern Ireland?

I looked at that and thought "are they seriously asking that question" ?
I am selling stuff to customers !
Do they seriously expect me to try and think of all, or even only some (in which case there is even less point to it....), of the uses that customers might use my products for ? ! ?
I put "used for the fitting of aerials etc", but then got a message saying my answer had toi be at least 50 characters long ! I might change etc to etcetera, that is how ludicrous this all is.

 

[Justin Smith]

Under the "Records, systems, controls and evidence requirements" section :

Preventing and detecting illegal activity
Records, systems, and controls

Save and continue
You need to show us that the business has controls in place to prevent and detect illegal activity within the organisation. We need to know that you have trained relevant staff in how to tell HMRC about any of legal issues if they do happen.

For example, you could tell us about a fraud prevention policy, or any relevant financial controls.

Do you have a document that shows the business has these controls in place?

Yes, I'll upload this document (you can upload up to 3 documents)

No, I'll explain the controls instead

I seriously swore at the system.
I am selling brackets clamps and aerials to NI customers, and probably only about 25 a year.
**** off.....

 

[Customs Geek]

They aren’t asking what your customers are going to do with your products. There are many reason why businesses will be sending or moving goods to NI it’s this they want to know
Suggest for you that ‘direct distance sales to consumers in NI ‘ as a suitable answer

 

[Graham Wharton]

If that question is phasing you, youre in for a treat for the rest of the application.

Heres what I answered in my submission which got approved. We're a really small business, its just me with no staff. I've got my UKIMS number, but yet to use it in anger. I'll probably just put a tickbox on my online checkout that appears for any BT** postcodes which gets them to confirm they will use the products in NI and not pass them into ROI and store that confirmation in my orders database.

Obviously these answers will be business specific, but I include my answers so you can see the level of detail that got approved. No idea if I over or under answered, but it went through.

How do you want to tell us about internal controls the business uses to prevent, detect and correct errors and to prevent and detect illegal activities within the organisation

The business is run by myself and I do not have any staff, therefore it will not be necessary to monitor for illegal activity. Our online store will produce as part of the month end reports, a list of orders that were sent to NI. A manual check to verify that no NI orders have been missed will be carried out as part of the month end processing, cross referencing the orders to the electronic email copies of the customer confirmation of NI end use, or confirmations stored in our database. Any corrections will be made at this point at the end of every month.

How does the business conduct cross checks between records relating to purchases, sales, stock control and movement of goods

All sales of goods from any sales channel are allocated an Order ID. When we email the customer to verify the goods are for end use in NI, we will include the Order ID, and it will be present in the reply and the reply indexed by Order ID in our local filesystem to aid review following shipment. All DHL and Royal Mail shipments use the Order ID as our reference number and the shipment records/delivery notes can be searched by Order ID to locate all shipment details for the order.

Informing HMRC of any compliance difficulties when these are discovered

I do not have any members of staff. I will be carrying out all actions regarding the UKIMS. Should I be unable to meet any of the compliance requirements in the future, or any of the material things I have disclosed to you in this application were to change, I would contact HMRC for further advice.

Tell us about the procedures to store and protect physical and digital information from unauthorised access, destruction and data loss

We have a local electronic data store (hard disk on main computer in office) and a paper record store (at business premises). Full customer order information is held on our online web store for 16 months after which VAT Invoices, Delivery Notes, Credit Memos and Commercial Invoices are archived into the electronic data store as PDF's and the order removed from the online store. Electronic records are synchronised to Microsoft One Drive for immediate disaster recovery onto a backup PC if required. Electronic records are backed up every month to a USB stick which is held at the business premises. These records are kept for 12 months and then erased. Electronic records are also backed up every year to USB stick which is held at the business premises (in a key safe in an outbuilding) and are kept for 10 years and then erased. Responses from our customers confirming goods are for use in NI will be kept in our electronic data store and backed up according to the above rules.

Tell us about the records, systems and controls in place that enable the business to accurately declare goods not at risk

We are a small business. Last financial year we only had 19 shipments to Northern Ireland. The majority were to Private individuals. All sales are registered in our online store at the time of purchase by the customer completing checkout online on our website, or the order is imported from eBay where the purchase was made. The store is a web application based on the Magento platform. I access the store via a web browser. Sales records are kept in the online store after fulfilment for 16 months at which point they are archived as a series of electronic VAT Invoices, Delivery Notes, Credit Notes and Commercial Invoices (includes HS Code, weight and customs description) and stored as PDFs in a local filesystem. Due to the low volume (19 last financial year) of expected shipments, we will adopt a manual approach to verifying that the items we sell to Individuals and Businesses in Northern Ireland are for NI use only. We will email each customer at the time of ordering using a standard template, asking them to reply to confirm that the goods are for end use in NI, and explaining any terms of the Windsor Framework they need to be aware of. We will store copies of the replies in a local filesystem, indexed by the Order ID. We will not ship/declare any items not at risk until we have received this positive reply. We may choose to automate this declaration as part of our online store checkout if sales volumes to NI significantly increase. All orders are shipped to our customers in NI by either Royal Mail or DHL. We do not courier/transport any items ourselves. Delivery notes, VAT Invoices, Credit Notes and Commercial Invoices can be re-produced for any order in the last 16 months from the online store, or from the PDF archive on our local filesystem for older orders. Details on all Royal Mail shipments are downloaded at the end of every month in Microsoft Excel format, including the delivery addresses, tracking information. and are stored in our local filesystem. These are cross linked to Order ID. They can also be accessed online through Royal Mail’s Click and Drop portal. Details on all DHL shipments are printed on the day of shipment including the delivery addresses, tracking information are stored in paper copy in the local paper binders labelled "Proof of postage". These are cross linked to Order ID. They can also be accessed online through DHL’s myDHL+ portal. Proof of delivery can be obtained from DHL/Royal Mail online. All electronic and Paper records are held for 10 Years before being erased/shredded. Electronic data is backed up onto USB sticks monthly, kept for 12 months and one backup each year is kept for 10 years. Electronic data is also backed up in real time to Microsoft OneDrive. Any paper records are stored at the company premises.

 

[Graham Wharton]

Under the "Records, systems, controls and evidence requirements" section :

Preventing and detecting illegal activity
Records, systems, and controls

Save and continue
You need to show us that the business has controls in place to prevent and detect illegal activity within the organisation. We need to know that you have trained relevant staff in how to tell HMRC about any of legal issues if they do happen.

For example, you could tell us about a fraud prevention policy, or any relevant financial controls.

Do you have a document that shows the business has these controls in place?

Yes, I'll upload this document (you can upload up to 3 documents)

No, I'll explain the controls instead

I seriously swore at the system.
I am selling brackets clamps and aerials to NI customers, and probably only about 25 a year.
**** off.....

It does seem completely bonkers to request this level of information. I've never had to provide anything like it to any other government department.

 

[Justin Smith]

If that question is phasing you, youre in for a treat for the rest of the application.

Heres what I answered in my submission which got approved. We're a really small business, its just me with no staff. I've got my UKIMS number, but yet to use it in anger. I'll probably just put a tickbox on my online checkout that appears for any BT** postcodes which gets them to confirm they will use the products in NI and not pass them into ROI and store that confirmation in my orders database.

Obviously these answers will be business specific, but I include my answers so you can see the level of detail that got approved. No idea if I over or under answered, but it went through.

How do you want to tell us about internal controls the business uses to prevent, detect and correct errors and to prevent and detect illegal activities within the organisation

The business is run by myself and I do not have any staff, therefore it will not be necessary to monitor for illegal activity. Our online store will produce as part of the month end reports, a list of orders that were sent to NI. A manual check to verify that no NI orders have been missed will be carried out as part of the month end processing, cross referencing the orders to the electronic email copies of the customer confirmation of NI end use, or confirmations stored in our database. Any corrections will be made at this point at the end of every month.

How does the business conduct cross checks between records relating to purchases, sales, stock control and movement of goods

All sales of goods from any sales channel are allocated an Order ID. When we email the customer to verify the goods are for end use in NI, we will include the Order ID, and it will be present in the reply and the reply indexed by Order ID in our local filesystem to aid review following shipment. All DHL and Royal Mail shipments use the Order ID as our reference number and the shipment records/delivery notes can be searched by Order ID to locate all shipment details for the order.

Informing HMRC of any compliance difficulties when these are discovered

I do not have any members of staff. I will be carrying out all actions regarding the UKIMS. Should I be unable to meet any of the compliance requirements in the future, or any of the material things I have disclosed to you in this application were to change, I would contact HMRC for further advice.

Tell us about the procedures to store and protect physical and digital information from unauthorised access, destruction and data loss

We have a local electronic data store (hard disk on main computer in office) and a paper record store (at business premises). Full customer order information is held on our online web store for 16 months after which VAT Invoices, Delivery Notes, Credit Memos and Commercial Invoices are archived into the electronic data store as PDF's and the order removed from the online store. Electronic records are synchronised to Microsoft One Drive for immediate disaster recovery onto a backup PC if required. Electronic records are backed up every month to a USB stick which is held at the business premises. These records are kept for 12 months and then erased. Electronic records are also backed up every year to USB stick which is held at the business premises (in a key safe in an outbuilding) and are kept for 10 years and then erased. Responses from our customers confirming goods are for use in NI will be kept in our electronic data store and backed up according to the above rules.

Tell us about the records, systems and controls in place that enable the business to accurately declare goods not at risk

We are a small business. Last financial year we only had 19 shipments to Northern Ireland. The majority were to Private individuals. All sales are registered in our online store at the time of purchase by the customer completing checkout online on our website, or the order is imported from eBay where the purchase was made. The store is a web application based on the Magento platform. I access the store via a web browser. Sales records are kept in the online store after fulfilment for 16 months at which point they are archived as a series of electronic VAT Invoices, Delivery Notes, Credit Notes and Commercial Invoices (includes HS Code, weight and customs description) and stored as PDFs in a local filesystem. Due to the low volume (19 last financial year) of expected shipments, we will adopt a manual approach to verifying that the items we sell to Individuals and Businesses in Northern Ireland are for NI use only. We will email each customer at the time of ordering using a standard template, asking them to reply to confirm that the goods are for end use in NI, and explaining any terms of the Windsor Framework they need to be aware of. We will store copies of the replies in a local filesystem, indexed by the Order ID. We will not ship/declare any items not at risk until we have received this positive reply. We may choose to automate this declaration as part of our online store checkout if sales volumes to NI significantly increase. All orders are shipped to our customers in NI by either Royal Mail or DHL. We do not courier/transport any items ourselves. Delivery notes, VAT Invoices, Credit Notes and Commercial Invoices can be re-produced for any order in the last 16 months from the online store, or from the PDF archive on our local filesystem for older orders. Details on all Royal Mail shipments are downloaded at the end of every month in Microsoft Excel format, including the delivery addresses, tracking information. and are stored in our local filesystem. These are cross linked to Order ID. They can also be accessed online through Royal Mail’s Click and Drop portal. Details on all DHL shipments are printed on the day of shipment including the delivery addresses, tracking information are stored in paper copy in the local paper binders labelled "Proof of postage". These are cross linked to Order ID. They can also be accessed online through DHL’s myDHL+ portal. Proof of delivery can be obtained from DHL/Royal Mail online. All electronic and Paper records are held for 10 Years before being erased/shredded. Electronic data is backed up onto USB sticks monthly, kept for 12 months and one backup each year is kept for 10 years. Electronic data is also backed up in real time to Microsoft OneDrive. Any paper records are stored at the company premises.

For all that effort you put in answering those ludicrous questions I hope you make big money on your 20 or so orders to NI !

 

[Graham Wharton]

For all that effort you put in answering those ludicrous questions I hope you make big money on your 20 or so orders to NI !

I'm not at all making ludicrous money. It took me a couple of hours to do it and it won't pay for itself, but when you work for yourself, you gotta do what you gotta do in order to pay the mortgage.

What's the alternative? Throw the toys out and turn off NI sales and shoot myself.in the foot over a few hours homework in the evening?

Ludicrous, yes. One off cost, yes. Is it done and dusted and already forgotten, yes. Do I have a UKIMS number, yes.

 

[Justin Smith]

If that question is phasing you, youre in for a treat for the rest of the application.

Heres what I answered in my submission which got approved. We're a really small business, its just me with no staff. I've got my UKIMS number, but yet to use it in anger. I'll probably just put a tickbox on my online checkout that appears for any BT** postcodes which gets them to confirm they will use the products in NI and not pass them into ROI and store that confirmation in my orders database.

Obviously these answers will be business specific, but I include my answers so you can see the level of detail that got approved. No idea if I over or under answered, but it went through.

How do you want to tell us about internal controls the business uses to prevent, detect and correct errors and to prevent and detect illegal activities within the organisation

The business is run by myself and I do not have any staff, therefore it will not be necessary to monitor for illegal activity. Our online store will produce as part of the month end reports, a list of orders that were sent to NI. A manual check to verify that no NI orders have been missed will be carried out as part of the month end processing, cross referencing the orders to the electronic email copies of the customer confirmation of NI end use, or confirmations stored in our database. Any corrections will be made at this point at the end of every month.

How does the business conduct cross checks between records relating to purchases, sales, stock control and movement of goods

All sales of goods from any sales channel are allocated an Order ID. When we email the customer to verify the goods are for end use in NI, we will include the Order ID, and it will be present in the reply and the reply indexed by Order ID in our local filesystem to aid review following shipment. All DHL and Royal Mail shipments use the Order ID as our reference number and the shipment records/delivery notes can be searched by Order ID to locate all shipment details for the order.

Informing HMRC of any compliance difficulties when these are discovered

I do not have any members of staff. I will be carrying out all actions regarding the UKIMS. Should I be unable to meet any of the compliance requirements in the future, or any of the material things I have disclosed to you in this application were to change, I would contact HMRC for further advice.

Tell us about the procedures to store and protect physical and digital information from unauthorised access, destruction and data loss

We have a local electronic data store (hard disk on main computer in office) and a paper record store (at business premises). Full customer order information is held on our online web store for 16 months after which VAT Invoices, Delivery Notes, Credit Memos and Commercial Invoices are archived into the electronic data store as PDF's and the order removed from the online store. Electronic records are synchronised to Microsoft One Drive for immediate disaster recovery onto a backup PC if required. Electronic records are backed up every month to a USB stick which is held at the business premises. These records are kept for 12 months and then erased. Electronic records are also backed up every year to USB stick which is held at the business premises (in a key safe in an outbuilding) and are kept for 10 years and then erased. Responses from our customers confirming goods are for use in NI will be kept in our electronic data store and backed up according to the above rules.

Tell us about the records, systems and controls in place that enable the business to accurately declare goods not at risk

We are a small business. Last financial year we only had 19 shipments to Northern Ireland. The majority were to Private individuals. All sales are registered in our online store at the time of purchase by the customer completing checkout online on our website, or the order is imported from eBay where the purchase was made. The store is a web application based on the Magento platform. I access the store via a web browser. Sales records are kept in the online store after fulfilment for 16 months at which point they are archived as a series of electronic VAT Invoices, Delivery Notes, Credit Notes and Commercial Invoices (includes HS Code, weight and customs description) and stored as PDFs in a local filesystem. Due to the low volume (19 last financial year) of expected shipments, we will adopt a manual approach to verifying that the items we sell to Individuals and Businesses in Northern Ireland are for NI use only. We will email each customer at the time of ordering using a standard template, asking them to reply to confirm that the goods are for end use in NI, and explaining any terms of the Windsor Framework they need to be aware of. We will store copies of the replies in a local filesystem, indexed by the Order ID. We will not ship/declare any items not at risk until we have received this positive reply. We may choose to automate this declaration as part of our online store checkout if sales volumes to NI significantly increase. All orders are shipped to our customers in NI by either Royal Mail or DHL. We do not courier/transport any items ourselves. Delivery notes, VAT Invoices, Credit Notes and Commercial Invoices can be re-produced for any order in the last 16 months from the online store, or from the PDF archive on our local filesystem for older orders. Details on all Royal Mail shipments are downloaded at the end of every month in Microsoft Excel format, including the delivery addresses, tracking information. and are stored in our local filesystem. These are cross linked to Order ID. They can also be accessed online through Royal Mail’s Click and Drop portal. Details on all DHL shipments are printed on the day of shipment including the delivery addresses, tracking information are stored in paper copy in the local paper binders labelled "Proof of postage". These are cross linked to Order ID. They can also be accessed online through DHL’s myDHL+ portal. Proof of delivery can be obtained from DHL/Royal Mail online. All electronic and Paper records are held for 10 Years before being erased/shredded. Electronic data is backed up onto USB sticks monthly, kept for 12 months and one backup each year is kept for 10 years. Electronic data is also backed up in real time to Microsoft OneDrive. Any paper records are stored at the company premises.

My answer was more succinct :

Preventing and detecting illegal activity

Will upload files showing required data security controls -
No, I'll explain the controls instead

How you prevent and detect illegal activity ? -
We send hardly any goods to NI. I doubt it's more than few thousand pounds a year altogether, made up of orders whose average value is well under £100. Therefore this question is not relevant for us.

 

[Justin Smith]

My answer was more succinct :

Preventing and detecting illegal activity

Will upload files showing required data security controls -
No, I'll explain the controls instead

How you prevent and detect illegal activity ? -
We send hardly any goods to NI. I doubt it's more than few thousand pounds a year altogether, made up of orders whose average value is well under £100. Therefore this question is not relevant for us.

Despite the above answer (which was correct, but poss not what was expected...) we have now received our "copy of your Authorisation, and reference number for your successful application to the UK Internal Market scheme".

 

[Justin Smith]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I just want to check what the latest situation is as the revised deadline is, I believe, the 31st March 2025.

Am I right that if one is just sending stuff BtoC none of this ludicrous paperwork is needed ?
If so I think we'll say we still are sending orders to NI, but not to businesses. Most of the businesses we send to are small ones who would be just as happy to have the order sent to their house anyway !

As a supplementary, if the order is actually going to a non business user, but they want it sent to their workplace (which is not unusual) how does that work ?

 

[DontAsk]

Am I right that if one is just sending stuff BtoC none of this ludicrous paperwork is needed ?

That's how I work, and will continue to work. Everything goes RM first class.

As a supplementary, if the order is actually going to a non business user, but they want it sent to their workplace (which is not unusual) how does that work ?

The same as it does anywhere else. Whether it's B2C or B2B is a matter of fact. If your B2B sales are single units, not qty, then it might be slightly harder to prove, but it's still a fact that is easily established. The delivery address is irrelevant. If a business owner orders for their business, whilst posing as a consumer, how are you to know?

As an aside, PC World always used to ask if you were buying for business. if you said yes, then you lost all your consumer rights. All my purchases from there were B2C

Just my personal take on it.

 

[Justin Smith]

As I understand it the "Windsor framework" arrangements are now required as from today.
Partly because this has coincided with a significant drop off in business (many report the same....), in fact I cannot remember the last NI order we had, it's just not worth all the hassle. So I am just going to send orders to non businesses in NI from now on. From what I understand from earlier posts that means I don't need to fill out all that paperwork ?

 

[Customs Geek]

You mentioned in an earlier post that you were approved and had been given your UKIMS number.
If you have that and the goods aren’t restricted for any reason you can use the simplified process.
The carrier/ courier/ Royal Mail will do most of the declaration work based on pretty much normal commercial documents . There’s just a couple of customs bits .
They need
Your UKIMS and EORI numbers
a description of the goods
Value and quantity
Origin of the goods
Goods category - mostly that will be standard
Goods classification- this can be set up in advance if you want and if you send the same things regularly it might be a one off job. HMRC will have set you up with an online trader goods profile to do this. www.gov.uk/guidance/manage-your-trader-goods-profile

Perhaps just check things out with some of the couriers you may find it’s not as complicated as you think once it’s set up.

 

[Justin Smith]

Had an E mail from HRC which had this to say about sending to customers (not businesses) in NI :

B2C goods
You can send goods to a consumer in NI without registering for any customs scheme, including the UKIMS, if the goods weigh up to:
• 100kg for a single item parcel
• 31.5kg for a parcel containing multiple items

Your carrier will collect standard commercial information as they did prior to the new arrangements coming into effect.

The information you will need to supply will usually include:
• name and address of GB sender
• name and address of recipient in NI
• total value of goods
• total weight of goods
• description goods at item level

If your parcels are outside the weight limits, they will follow the B2B process described above.

I would have thought that all those (with the possible exception of the weight, which the carrier will have and/or is easily added anyway) would be covered by the invoice supplied with the order ? I.e. no more paperwork should be necessary ?

 

[Customs Geek]

You mentioned in an earlier post that you were approved and had been given your UKIMS number.
If you have that and the goods aren’t restricted for any reason you can use the simplified process.
The carrier/ courier/ Royal Mail will do most of the declaration work based on pretty much normal commercial documents . There’s just a couple of customs bits .
They need
Your UKIMS and EORI numbers
a description of the goods
Value and quantity
Origin of the goods
Goods category - mostly that will be standard
Goods classification- this can be set up in advance if you want and if you send the same things regularly it might be a one off job. HMRC will have set you up with an online trader goods profile to do this.

Perhaps just check things out with some of the couriers you may find it’s not as complicated as you think once it’s set up.

I meant to add this relates to B2B packages . There’s no additional requirements for B2C packages.

 

[Justin Smith]

It's a funny old world isn't it.....
We hadn't had an order from Northern Ireland for months, then a few days after the Windsor agreement came in we had two !
As mentioned previously we are only sending stuff to "consumers" and both customers more or less came under that classification, but in any case the orders were only for £125 and £70 so I cannot imagine C&E would be on our backs anyway !
Despite the above we were a bit apprehensive about if it'd all go through OK on the DX Express portal......
At first our fears seemed justified as a warning came up us 'not being set up for DC UKIMS' (or something like that) and all these boxes came up for customs codes. But, once we clicked "Consumer" (as opposed to "Business"), most of the boxes then greyed out apart from the ones asking for :

Quantity
Contents
Weight
Value.

Which is all information we have readily to hand, and (as we always do anyway) we stuck the invoice in a bag on the side of the consignment.
So it all went through and printed out a label to stick on the side of the box.

 

[thetiger2015]

We've just been caught up in this - sending B2B. Didn't think anything of it, as we send a few items per year to two businesses in Northern Ireland without any issue but from today, we have to print 3 x customs declarations, keep a copy of all declarations for 5 years and register for UKIMS, we already have our EORI stuff but the cost...the last parcel we sent was £7 but todays quote £23.65 for the same size/weight parcel?

 

[paulears]

Royal mail. Enter postcode, pay the money, take to post office. No forms. I read about the problems, but i have sent numerous parcels to NI since the warnings started and nothing has actually changed.

 

[thetiger2015]

Royal mail. Enter postcode, pay the money, take to post office. No forms. I read about the problems, but i have sent numerous parcels to NI since the warnings started and nothing has actually changed.

It has changed.

If you're sending a magazine to a mate, it probably hasn't but if you're sending a B2B parcel over 2kg it most definitely has, we've literally just done this.

We usually send via DPD but they won't take our parcels any more. It used to be £6.40 per parcel but now it's around £20 and the courier now needs the EORI number, UKIMS information and 3 x declarations, as well as a document wallet attached to all parcels with customs information, HS codes for all items in the parcels and a signed declaration from the person shipping in to N.I.

This is probably only for B2B orders, not to consumers but we have two customers over there, it won't work going forward at nearly £20 a box.

 

[paulears]

I sent one on friday royal mail medium parcel about 3Kg, to Newtownabbey - about ten miles from Belfast. Normal price, no EORI forms? How strange?

 

[paulears]

OOPS
I tried it on the royal mail site and I take it back. entering a company name into the box triggers rejection - assuming it is B2B and a totally different process with registration and forms. Taking out the business name from the company name field and adding that to the first line of the address seems to then require simplified entry. Description and then searchable codes, but better than using the b2B system which is crippling. For most of the year this will be workable, as most customers are individuals, but for 3 months of the year I have streams of parcels going both ways. It has caught up with me. Friday's parcel to a customer was normal, but not today!

 

[Justin Smith]

It has changed.

If you're sending a magazine to a mate, it probably hasn't but if you're sending a B2B parcel over 2kg it most definitely has, we've literally just done this.

We usually send via DPD but they won't take our parcels any more. It used to be £6.40 per parcel but now it's around £20 and the courier now needs the EORI number, UKIMS information and 3 x declarations, as well as a document wallet attached to all parcels with customs information, HS codes for all items in the parcels and a signed declaration from the person shipping in to N.I.

This is probably only for B2B orders, not to consumers but we have two customers over there, it won't work going forward at nearly £20 a box.

Can't you just send it to a person, like we did, and therefore it can qualify as to a consumer ?

 

[Justin Smith]

WARNING......

OMG.....
We sent a fly lead to Ireland (i.e. not Northern Ireland, but it still shows you what can happen with customs) back in late March. The goods were only £8.40 and the total order value £18.40 (incl carriage).
It's just been returned "Refused by customs" despite the fact it has our invoice in a pouch on the front of it and a RM generated CN22 form on the back ! Obviously there was no specific reason quoted. Thus I have no idea why it has been returned and so I will be writing off the money (carriage mainly), refunding the customer, and never bothering to send anything to Ireland again.....

In my view if customs reject anything there should be a statutory duty on them to put the actual reason on the rejection sticker......

 

[Justin Smith]

WARNING......

OMG.....
We sent a fly lead to Ireland (i.e. not Northern Ireland, but it still shows you what can happen with customs) back in late March. The goods were only £8.40 and the total order value £18.40 (incl carriage).
It's just been returned "Refused by customs" despite the fact it has our invoice in a pouch on the front of it and a RM generated CN22 form on the back ! Obviously there was no specific reason quoted. Thus I have no idea why it has been returned and so I will be writing off the money (carriage mainly), refunding the customer, and never bothering to send anything to Ireland again.....

In my view if customs reject anything there should be a statutory duty on them to put the actual reason on the rejection sticker......

We cannot work out what was wrong with this order that got retd..... Our invoice and the RM label was on the front, but the CN22 customs label was on the underside, it is possible the Irish customs guy just didn't bother checking the bottom ? ! ? If so that's an appalling state of affairs

 

[DontAsk]

We cannot work out what was wrong with this order that got retd..... Our invoice and the RM label was on the front, but the CN22 customs label was on the underside, it is possible the Irish customs guy just didn't bother checking the bottom ? ! ? If so that's an appalling state of affairs

I had that with a parcel sent to the Netherlands. They just didn't bother to look.

 

[Customs Geek]

Sometimes the reason for return is because there are some charges to pay or additional info needed. If the receiver doesn’t respond or pay the goods can’t clear customs so are returned.

 

[Justin Smith]

Sometimes the reason for return is because there are some charges to pay or additional info needed. If the receiver doesn’t respond or pay the goods can’t clear customs so are returned.

Possibly, but the (none too helpful) label says :

"Refused by customs X

Your item has been returned to Royal Mail Group by the destination country's customs authority as being non-compliant to customs regulations and therefore cannot be imported"

 

[Customs Geek]

Possibly, but the (none too helpful) label says :

"Refused by customs X

Your item has been returned to Royal Mail Group by the destination country's customs authority as being non-compliant to customs regulations and therefore cannot be imported"

That sounds like they think the item is prohibited or needs some kind of licence or permit.
Did you describe the item as a fly lead ? If so they may be picking up on the word ‘fly’ and thinking it’s an animal product.
It sounds crazy but certain words can trigger misunderstandings.

 

[Justin Smith]

That sounds like they think the item is prohibited or needs some kind of licence or permit.
Did you describe the item as a fly lead ? If so they may be picking up on the word ‘fly’ and thinking it’s an animal product.
It sounds crazy but certain words can trigger misunderstandings.

Actually I just realised there was another smaller label on it which had a load of tick boxes, and the one ticked said :

"Non-compliant customs data"

Obviously they'd put nothing in the adjacent box marked "Explanation".....

Our invoice pouch was unopened, but on the CN22 form (on the back) it was described as a "computer lead", which was near enough !
Basically it's put me off bothering with non UK orders which, for me, are generally more trouble than they're worth anyway.

 

[Customs Geek]

Just a thought it may be they are not sure the goods comply with the EU GPSR - General product safety regulations which require an EU responsible person .
www.great.gov.uk/export-academy/gpsr/

 

[paulears]

I sold my first product to NI since the new regime started - an antenna. These are long and thin so nobody likes taking them, bar parcelforce at over ten quid! Am I a business seller, yes. is the recipent a business, no. All was going well till it came to the tariff code, and parcel force did not know it. antenna produced nothing, but eventually aerial did. Not the right kind of aerial of course, but eventually on HMRC, the NI version I got closer and picked the 8 digits. Parcelforce rejected them as not valid. eventually, I found a US tariff code for what it actually is, and it worked. Started a spreadsheet for keeping track of codes for my stock. Post Office beeped it as usual. Needs a customs form. It is there, in the plastic wallet with all 4 copies as Parcelforce state. They took it. Later in the day another NI customer bought the same thing, so it was much quicker. It needs me to add my 000 to the showing VAT number in the EORI box manually, sign, date, print name and status. So that is 5 boxes I need to do manually on 4 documents. I'll report back on how it goes with Royal Mail. It's a pain but not too bad I guess. I don't know what happens if the customer is a business - yet!

 

[Justin Smith]

I sold my first product to NI since the new regime started - an antenna. These are long and thin so nobody likes taking them, bar parcelforce at over ten quid! Am I a business seller, yes. is the recipent a business, no. All was going well till it came to the tariff code, and parcel force did not know it. antenna produced nothing, but eventually aerial did. Not the right kind of aerial of course, but eventually on HMRC, the NI version I got closer and picked the 8 digits. Parcelforce rejected them as not valid. eventually, I found a US tariff code for what it actually is, and it worked. Started a spreadsheet for keeping track of codes for my stock. Post Office beeped it as usual. Needs a customs form. It is there, in the plastic wallet with all 4 copies as Parcelforce state. They took it. Later in the day another NI customer bought the same thing, so it was much quicker. It needs me to add my 000 to the showing VAT number in the EORI box manually, sign, date, print name and status. So that is 5 boxes I need to do manually on 4 documents. I'll report back on how it goes with Royal Mail. It's a pain but not too bad I guess. I don't know what happens if the customer is a business - yet!

I don't quite understand why you needed to fill in a customs form if it was to a consumer (not a business) ?
As mentioned previously on the DX system most of the boxes greyed out once I selected "consumer".

 

[paulears]

100% B2C and the customs form requirements appear with VAT, EORI, and other details required - in fact, almost the same as when I sell to europe - I note though there are 4 invoices generated - no choice on this unless, I suppose I declare myself not a business? That seems risky. I will update again the next royal mail sale to NI.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Received an email from Parcelforce today, part of which read........

For Business to Consumer (B2C), Consumer to Consumer (C2C) or Consumer to Business (C2B) goods movements from GB to NI, I would like to remind you that the following data is required:

• Confirmation that the recipient is not a business,

To date I've not managed to find the right niche for my customers as many are volunteer led community concerns and often registered charities. A karate club, fitness class, school, junior football team, Scout group etc., cannot be considered businesses nor individual consumers. To complicate matters we do get asked to invoice sponsors or an individuals employer.

 

[Newchodge]

Received an email from Parcelforce today, part of which read........

For Business to Consumer (B2C), Consumer to Consumer (C2C) or Consumer to Business (C2B) goods movements from GB to NI, I would like to remind you that the following data is required:

• Confirmation that the recipient is not a business,

To date I've not managed to find the right niche for my customers as many are volunteer led community concerns and often registered charities. A karate club, fitness class, school, junior football team, Scout group etc., cannot be considered businesses nor individual consumers. To complicate matters we do get asked to invoice sponsors or an individuals employer.

As you are only being asked to confirm that theyare not a business, which they are not, it doesn't matter what they are!

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

As you are only being asked to confirm that theyare not a business, which they are not, it doesn't matter what they are!

The margins for differential are small. Some volunteer led clubs may reside within a commercial gym or in some cases the coaches may have a day job at a fitness gym and request delivery to such so I'd assume what goes on the address would be a red flag and ripe for intervention?

 

[Justin Smith]

The margins for differential are small. Some volunteer led clubs may reside within a commercial gym or in some cases the coaches may have a day job at a fitness gym and request delivery to such so I'd assume what goes on the address would be a red flag and ripe for intervention?

Do we really think they want to investigate it to such depth ?

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Do we really think they want to investigate it to such depth ?

If I put down that the items are for a consumer and send to a business address it wouldn't require Hercule Poirot to raise suspicions and I'm not privy to how or how well these changes will be policed and enforced.

Do you know?