Windsor Framework : Am I the only one shocked at what we're being asked to do to send stuff to Northern Ireland ?

[Justin Smith]

I speak as a Remainer, but have to say I appalled that the UK government ever agreed to this.
In my ignorance I thought the Tories had insisted there could be no borders between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK, so I never looked into the Windsor Framework" that much.
Well, we have just had this from our carrier which is incredible to me:

This is a legal requirement as of 30th September 2024, should we not have this, you will be unable to ship to Northern Ireland.
Customer Checklist
1 - Check only ‘Green-Lane’ (UKIMS) goods will be sent with DX
2 - Register with HMRC for an EORI number if you do not already have one
3 - Register online with the Trader Support Service (TSS) and authorise DX as an agent
4 - Apply for UKIMS authorisation
5 - Know whether each GB to NI sale is B2C or B2B
6 - Have a plain English description for all products
7 - prepare to provide line-level data for GB-NI consignments
8 - Know the rules for your products – are they prohibited / restricted / controlled?
9 - If you make bookings via API please ensure you have the latest DX API guide

I’ll be honest I don’t even now that most of that stuff means, and the thought we have to individually enter the product description, 6 digit customs code, value and weight of each and every product on an invoice just makes my eyes glaze over.

 

[Justin Smith]

I have started filling in the ludicrous online forms for the “UK Internal Market Scheme authorisation”. They can only have been thought up bureaucrats, the kind of people who like filling in forms, and in fact get paid to do so. Of what possible relevance is my age ? ! ?
And, in fact, the form's designers are "sub optimal" to put it mildly. I accidentally put June 2024 as my date of birth, and it accepted it without it being flagged up. The question is just how precocious a 3 month old baby would have to be to fill in their poxy form…
I have been on it not far off an hour and I am only half way through the second of 11 sections......
The world has gone mad.

 

[Ivanzyt]

It's a bit like the "frictionless trade" that was promised with the rest of Europe. My friction burns say otherwise. The whole thing was a lie. My main problem was that everyone who knew anything about trading with Europe was screaming about it all being a lie. But then we were all told to shut up because it was just "project fear". Now that the lies unfold just like everyone said they would we are starting to hear excuses about it all being due to the French being difficult or some other xenophobic claptrap. Not sure how they are going to spin the trade barriers with Northern Ireland being all the fault of the French or the Germans because that really is an own goal. But mark my words some Trory will be trying to blame this on Brussels somehow.

Sadly I don't have any advice to give. It is what it is, a total and utter ballache for any business trading with the EU or, indeed, with Northern Ireland. You will need to up your prices to cover the admin burden and contribute to inflation I'm afraid, that's what we had to do.

 

[NickGrogan]

This also means that all European companies have a hard time trading with the UK, benefiting UK-based businesses selling to UK customers.

 

[AlanJ1]

Sadly I don't have any advice to give. It is what it is, a total and utter ballache for any business trading with the EU or, indeed, with Northern Ireland. You will need to up your prices to cover the admin burden and contribute to inflation I'm afraid, that's what we had to do.

Do you not use a system to ship your products?

Our system requires us to edit a couple of settings and update commodity codes (as we never did this before) and it will then do the rest for us, just like another international order really once the initial stages are done.

 

[LPB 123]

we have to individually enter the product description, 6 digit customs code, value and weight of each and every product on an invoice just makes my eyes glaze over.

What order management software do you use to ship?

It should act pretty similarly for NI from 30th September as it does for international orders currently, so all of that info can be automated.

 

[Ivanzyt]

Do you not use a system to ship your products?

Our system requires us to edit a couple of settings and update commodity codes (as we never did this before) and it will then do the rest for us, just like another international order really once the initial stages are done.

A good system helps of course. But it does not eliminate the additional admin burden entirely. Like you said it's just like any other international order i.e. more complex than shipping within the UK. A totally unnecessary additional cost to businesses.

 

[Ivanzyt]

This also means that all European companies have a hard time trading with the UK, benefiting UK-based businesses selling to UK customers.

Indeed, this adds to inflation as well.

 

[NickGrogan]

Indeed, this adds to inflation as well.

Were you worried about inflation when we were part of the EU, and all other countries in the world had a hard time trading with the EU, benefiting EU-based businesses selling to EU customers?

UK inflation rate is currently 2.2%, EU 2.2%, so I'm not sure where your added inflation is?

 

[Ivanzyt]

Were you worried about inflation when we were part of the EU, and all other countries in the world had a hard time trading with the EU, benefiting EU-based businesses selling to EU customers?

UK inflation rate is currently 2.2%, EU 2.2%, so I'm not sure where your added inflation is?

Given that our largest trading partner by far was the EU all the benefits of EU business selling to EU customers you mention were benefiting UK businesses prior to brexit. After Brexit, those benefits were removed and thus we had a hit to our economy. So far those benefits have not been replaced with other benefits.

The 2.2% inflation figure is cherry-picked that's a snapshot rate today.

If you look at inflation over the last 5 years or so you will see that Britain performs poorly when compared to other major European nations. For example last year the EU was at about 3.6 % inflation and the UK at 7.6% in 2022 it was 9.6% for the EU and about 11% for the UK. Since Brexit, it is estimated that an additional 0.6% has been added to the UK inflation over and above all the other factors affecting global inflation. This was all predicted before Brexit and is a natural consequence of coming out of the largest free trade area the world has ever known. This was inevitable.

It's not like this is surprising it's basic economics. The UK Is a net importer of goods if you increase administration and hassle at the borders by coming out of a free trade zone and a customer union then the additional costs that occur will be passed onto the consumers and this will increase inflation. This is exactly what has happened just as every economist predicted.

Now, there may well have been good reasons to leave the EU, and perhaps these outweigh the hit to our economy. I don't know, I don't really care about sovereignty I would actually like to see a federal United States of Europe with more power taken away from our parliament. I think immigration is a good thing and see no issue with it. But others disagree and feel strongly that these things are important, which is fair enough in a democracy, mine is a minority position. We can have a good-faith debate on these matters. What we can't really debate in good faith are the economic facts about the effects of Brexit on our economy. It has been bad for our economy. Those who deny this basic reality I have no time for.

 

[Justin Smith]

Do you not use a system to ship your products?

Our system requires us to edit a couple of settings and update commodity codes (as we never did this before) and it will then do the rest for us, just like another international order really once the initial stages are done.

We only send a relatively small number of orders out with a relatively high margin. We simply print out the Woocommerce orders then write out an invoice manually, which we have to do for phoned through orders anyway. The orders could end up being sent a number of different ways according to the order (of which there are an almost infinite number of sizes / weight combinations), then enter the info on the relevant carriers online portals for them to pick up. I do not see how that could be easily automated (particularly as we have to write out the phone orders anyway), and even if it could the complication of changing our whole system just to make NI orders easier would not be worth it.
We probably only send an order to NI every couple of weeks on average and I have seriously considered just stopping sending any with all this added complication, but that seems so unprofessional I discounted the idea.
The whole thing is utterly ludicrous that there is less paperwork top send an order to the USA than another part of the UK !

 

[Justin Smith]

I have started filling in the ludicrous online forms for the “UK Internal Market Scheme authorisation”. They can only have been thought up bureaucrats, the kind of people who like filling in forms, and in fact get paid to do so. Of what possible relevance is my age ? ! ?
And, in fact, the form's designers are "sub optimal" to put it mildly. I accidentally put June 2024 as my date of birth, and it accepted it without it being flagged up. The question is just how precocious a 3 month old baby would have to be to fill in their poxy form…
I have been on it not far off an hour and I am only half way through the second of 11 sections......
The world has gone mad.

One can tell this whole system has been set up by bureaucrats, and that we live in an over regulated and disproportionate world. It occurred to me the whole thing would have been much simpler if orders under £100 (or even £200), which will constitute most shipments I'd have thought, were just exempt. No business is going to fart about sending out orders under that amount (and pay about £10 an order in carriage for every one....) just to save a bit of import duty by then sending the orders on into the EU (and paying even more carriage....). It's all absolute Bollox, it's a sledgehammer to crack a nut. If that were adopted all one would have to do was have a requirement for a copy of the invoice to be on the side of the parcel, what was in it (i.e. the requirement for customs codes etc) would be irrelevant and therefore not required.

 

[Justin Smith]

Can I just check something here as the info from DX seems unclear.
If sending to a non business, do I actually have to do any of this "Windsor Framework" cobblers ?

 

[NickGrogan]

The 2.2% inflation figure is cherry-picked that's a snapshot rate today.

How is using the current rate cherry-picking? It's literally the rate right now. If I'd taken the rate from 5 years ago and during Covid, that would have been cherry-picking. But I didn't do that.

Most of the UK's recent inflation has been due to energy. Our energy mix is different from Europe's, making us more vulnerable.

the largest free trade area the world has ever known.

The EU is not the largest free trade area the world has ever known.

 

[DefinitelyMaybeUK]

Had this today from DHL, so looks like your pain has been delayed:

The regulatory changes for parcels moving from Great Britain (GB) to Northern Ireland (NI), referred to as The Windsor Framework, were expected to be in place from the end of September 2024. This has been postponed by Government and businesses should now be ready for the new arrangements by 31 March 2025.

 

[AlanJ1]

Had this today from DHL, so looks like your pain has been delayed:

The regulatory changes for parcels moving from Great Britain (GB) to Northern Ireland (NI), referred to as The Windsor Framework, were expected to be in place from the end of September 2024. This has been postponed by Government and businesses should now be ready for the new arrangements by 31 March 2025.

Yeah got the same from DPD yesterday.

 

[JPMiddleton]

Can I just check something here as the info from DX seems unclear.
If sending to a non business, do I actually have to do any of this "Windsor Framework" cobblers ?

No.

It applies to B2B only.

Seems that, as usual, it looks way more complex than it actually is.

Windsor Framework Parcels Guidance | Manufacturing NI

www.manufacturingni.org

Business to consumer and consumer to business parcel movements ​

UK businesses sending parcels to consumers for personal use in Northern Ireland (or consumers sending parcels) do not need to be registered in any scheme in order to use the arrangements set out in this section. Nor do consumers sending parcels need to be registered in any scheme. The arrangements set out will apply automatically where the carrier is informed that a parcel is destined for a consumer or sent by a consumer to a business.

For parcels going to or from a consumer from Great Britain to Northern Ireland you do not need to provide a declaration or a commodity code, rather you should provide your carrier with a goods description as part of the usual process of exchanging information with them.

A goods description should be provided to your carrier for each different item sent for business to consumer and consumer to business parcels, alongside other standard commercial information which businesses typically provide to carriers, such as the weight of the parcel. The goods description should be a brief plain English description of the item in the parcel. For example, it may include the type of product such as ‘shampoo’, ‘plastic cups’ or ‘iPhone’. You should avoid generic terms that do not allow the good to be identified such as ‘goods’, ‘gifts’, ‘samples’ or ‘parts’.

There will be no customs declarations, tariffs, prenotification or presentation of goods to customs authorities when parcels are sent by or to consumers.

 

[Justin Smith]

No.

It applies to B2B only.

Seems that, as usual, it looks way more complex than it actually is.

Windsor Framework Parcels Guidance | Manufacturing NI

www.manufacturingni.org

Business to consumer and consumer to business parcel movements ​

UK businesses sending parcels to consumers for personal use in Northern Ireland (or consumers sending parcels) do not need to be registered in any scheme in order to use the arrangements set out in this section. Nor do consumers sending parcels need to be registered in any scheme. The arrangements set out will apply automatically where the carrier is informed that a parcel is destined for a consumer or sent by a consumer to a business.

For parcels going to or from a consumer from Great Britain to Northern Ireland you do not need to provide a declaration or a commodity code, rather you should provide your carrier with a goods description as part of the usual process of exchanging information with them.

A goods description should be provided to your carrier for each different item sent for business to consumer and consumer to business parcels, alongside other standard commercial information which businesses typically provide to carriers, such as the weight of the parcel. The goods description should be a brief plain English description of the item in the parcel. For example, it may include the type of product such as ‘shampoo’, ‘plastic cups’ or ‘iPhone’. You should avoid generic terms that do not allow the good to be identified such as ‘goods’, ‘gifts’, ‘samples’ or ‘parts’.

There will be no customs declarations, tariffs, prenotification or presentation of goods to customs authorities when parcels are sent by or to consumers.

So, for BtoC what exactly extra do I have to do over and above what I'd do for a customer anywhere else in the UK ?

Supplementary point, many customers have their orders sent top their work address, so does that still count as BtoC ? ! ?

 

[Justin Smith]

I've only just realised, this thread about orders sent to another part of the UK, has been moved to "Overseas Trade" !
Still, I suppose it is technically "over a sea"..... But then again, so is sending stuff to Shetland !

 

[JPMiddleton]

It’s automatically assumed they’re green lane, as far as I have been advised (by DHL amongst others) and so you just need to do the following:

For parcels going to or from a consumer from Great Britain to Northern Ireland you do not need to provide a declaration or a commodity code, rather you should provide your carrier with a goods description as part of the usual process of exchanging information with them.

 

[NickGrogan]

It’s automatically assumed they’re green lane, as far as I have been advised (by DHL amongst others) and so you just need to do the following:

Sounds pretty frictionless to me.

 

[Graham Wharton]

I was advised by DHL to prepare now and obtain a UKIMS authorisation from UK gov to enable me to ship to NI using the green lane.

I filled in the ludicrous online forms as best I could, and shortly after was told I was approved and given my UKIMS number.

I've yet to use it in anger.

In terms of controls, I told them that I would introduce a checkbox on my website for NI customers stating that "The products they purchase must not pass into ROI" and their agreement is recorded along with the sales record in my database, along with some updates to my T&C's. They didnt comment, but I was approved.

I'll probably also generate some "Not for EU" stickers and splash them about a bit for shipments to NI. Can't harm.

 

[Justin Smith]

I was advised by DHL to prepare now and obtain a UKIMS authorisation from UK gov to enable me to ship to NI using the green lane.

I filled in the ludicrous online forms as best I could, and shortly after was told I was approved and given my UKIMS number.

I've yet to use it in anger.

In terms of controls, I told them that I would introduce a checkbox on my website for NI customers stating that "The products they purchase must not pass into ROI" and their agreement is recorded along with the sales record in my database, along with some updates to my T&C's. They didnt comment, but I was approved.

I'll probably also generate some "Not for EU" stickers and splash them about a bit for shipments to NI. Can't harm.

Absolutely, designed by someone with too much time on his hands which appeared to be asking questions for the sake of it.
Why the hell do they need to ask you your date of birth !

 

[Justin Smith]

Can I just check something ? ! ?
I was filling in this accursed form and it asked for my TSS (Trader Support Scheme) number, but I have not go that !
Is it correct that it will be sent to me (by E Mail "within 5 days") but I do not remember the application process telling me that, and if it did it should have reminded you on the page where it asks for the TSS !

 

[Graham Wharton]

Do you have a login for the tss website. You can get your number from under the account settings.

Update : Just checked, it's under the Company Profile section of your account in TSS.

 

[Customs Geek]

Absolutely, designed by someone with too much time on his hands which appeared to be asking questions for the sake of it.
Why the hell do they need to ask you your date of birth !

This is common on HMRC forms- it’s for ID checking of directors / owners as I understand

 

[Justin Smith]

Do you have a login for the tss website. You can get your number from under the account settings.

Update : Just checked, it's under the Company Profile section of your account in TSS.

Thanks for that Graham.
I logged in to my application but cannot see where my company profile is ?
Used the URL below once I'd logged in to my "Government Gateway" account :

https://www.tax.service.gov.uk/submissions/tasklist/tasks/apply-uk-internal-market-scheme-authorisation/

Is it just me being thick or is it badly designed ? Why don't they tell you exactly where you can get this TSS number ? ! ?

This "TSS User Guide" :

https://www.nicustomstradeacademy.c...egistering_My_Business_vREVIEWED_vFINAL-2.pdf

Says this :

Once the initial registration steps have been completed, you will receive two notifications. One notification will contain the unique TSS registration number, which can then be used by other colleagues to request access to the TSS registration for your company.

I do not remember being told that as I filled in the form... All in all it's very poorly designed.

 

[Graham Wharton]

I access the TSS via. I'm guessing perhaps your application hasn't yet been approved if you can't login there. https://www.tradersupportservice.co.uk/tss

 

[Justin Smith]

I access the TSS via. I'm guessing perhaps your application hasn't yet been approved if you can't login there. https://www.tradersupportservice.co.uk/tss

It sounds like you may be right, but it'd have been nice for them to warn of that..... The whole thing, incl the very user unfriendly registration process, is a joke.
As regards the poor design of the set up process this appears at the bottom of the page you linked to :

Trader Support Services is a trading name of:
Fujitsu Services Limited

Aren't they the people who supplied the Post Office "Horizon" software that they said "could not be faulty", but it was ?
Nuff said......

 

[Graham Wharton]

Stick your application in again. I'm pretty sure mine came back within minutes.

 

[Justin Smith]

Stick your application in again. I'm pretty sure mine came back within minutes.

I don't think I can submit the application until all sections are filled in, incl the "Trading authorisations" one which I cannot complete without my TSS number !

I even checked if there was a "help" phone number on the page, but that was never going to happen was it......

 

[Graham Wharton]

I mean reapply for your TSS account here. This will register the company (gets you a tss number) and creates you a user account linked to your company, so you can manage it. You can then add additional users as required to manage your business if needed.

Trader and Company Registration - Trader Support Service

www.tradersupportservice.co.uk

 

[Justin Smith]

I mean reapply for your TSS account here. This will register the company (gets you a tss number) and creates you a user account linked to your company, so you can manage it. You can then add additional users as required to manage your business if needed.

Trader and Company Registration - Trader Support Service

www.tradersupportservice.co.uk

Thanks Graham.
Do you mean I should cancel the application (I am two thirds through...) on the tax.service.gov.uk (apply-uk-internal-market-scheme-authorisation) website ?
If I then get a TSS number from the tradersupportservice (you linked to) do I then go back and fill in the gov.uk form, or not bother with it ? ! ?

 

[Graham Wharton]

Applying for the TSS Service gets you a TSS number and access to the TSS website where you can use certain customs declaration services. These services cover imports and exports to anywhere. Its the equivalent of submitting your CHIEF declarations etc...

Applying for the UKIMS Service is additional and only needed if you want to ship to Northern Ireland via the Windsor Framework Green Lane. You could probably just park the UKIMS application until you get your TSS number then complete the UKIMS application. Once approved for UKIMS you will get a UKIMS number which you use for shipments to Northern Ireland.

I only export using couriers (Royal Mail, DHL etc), so I don't make my own customs declarations so I don't use the TSS services myself, but I still needed to sign up to TSS in order to get a TSS number in order to get a UKIMS number which you DO need for couriers/DHL etc once the regulations come into effect.

I hope that makes sense.

Edit : Also, once you are then approved for UKIMS, you then need to add your proof of UKIMS approval to the TSS website....... Not complicated at all!!!!!!

 

[Customs Geek]

The TSS registration is separate to the UKIMS.
TSS is the portal through which customs declarations to NI are made. This has been there since Brexit.
UkIMS is an approval for you as an importer to be used for goods that will definitely stay in NI. It allows for simplified entry to NI .(At least in comparison to the standard requirements)
You don’t actually have to have a TSS registration number but if you do you need to put it on the application.
If you or your carrier dont intend to use TSS to make the declarations HMRC want to know who else you will be using.

In practice most use TSS so its best to register.

 

[Justin Smith]

Who came up with all of this ? ! ?

These are some of the questions on that TSS form :

Do you hold a Customs Freight Simplified Procedures (CFSP) - SDE Authorisation for Northern Ireland?

Do you hold a Customs Freight Simplified Procedures (CFSP) - EIR Authorisation for Northern Ireland?

Do you have a valid Duty Deferment Account (DDA) associated with XI EORI?

Do you need to use a Parent Organisation Authorisation on your declarations?

Customs Procedure Codes (CPC)

I'll be honest I do not even know what any of that means.
All I want to do is send the odd aerial to Northern Ireland (part of the UK).

There are obviously people about with too much time on their hands (and who have never run a business).....

 

[Customs Geek]

---

As they are yes no answers in the main if you don’t know what it means then you won’t have those things so answer no. Businesses that do have those will know they have them and what they are.
A customs procedure code tells customs what type of import it is ie permanent, temporary, for processing returned goods etc. for permanent import the customs procedure code is 4000000

 

[DefinitelyMaybeUK]

All I want to do is send the odd aerial to Northern Ireland (part of the UK).

If that's the case, then as previously mentioned in https://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/...stuff-to-northern-ireland.427152/post-3244054 it would seem you don't need to register for B2C orders...

 

[Justin Smith]

If that's the case, then as previously mentioned in https://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/...stuff-to-northern-ireland.427152/post-3244054 it would seem you don't need to register for B2C orders...

That's what we were going to do, till we were reminded the other day that we do occasionally get worthwhile B2B orders, when we had one for £300.
I was tempted to just say "can I send it to your home address as it'd be easier ?"
And I am only half joking.....

But I would not have thought that a £300 order should require all this palaver. £30,000 maybe....

 

[Justin Smith]

---

As they are yes no answers in the main if you don’t know what it means then you won’t have those things so answer no. Businesses that do have those will know they have them and what they are.
A customs procedure code tells customs what type of import it is ie permanent, temporary, for processing returned goods etc. for permanent import the customs procedure code is 4000000

Thanks for the customs code, but the point is how are businesses filling in that form supposed to know that they don't have to answer certain questions ? It doesn't say that, not clearly anyway.
And it's a dangerous precedent to answer questions on an "official form" without even knowing what they mean !
The whole thing is ludicrous.