What is this so called soft exit

D

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4.4% of the money (mostly money the EU gives to member states to spend on their behalf) is wasted, unaccounted for, spent in "violation of the rules" etc. Sometimes it's over 7%. I'm appalled at the money the UK government wastes, but the UK National Audit Office says fraud here is 0.02% of total expenditure.
And now we have the wonderful example of corruption here at home. £1 billion to Northern Ireland to keep the Tories in power. Its not as if the NHS in NI needs more money, they don't even do abortions.
 
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D

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Have you read Marta's book? It's a good read, and illuminating.
No, I'm currently working my way through a history of Sicily. Some interesting parallels we might draw now. The Norman Kingdoms once stretched from the British Isles all the way to include Sicily and most of the Mediterranean. The Normans now occupies the island of Jersey. Its downfall could be attributed to losing free access to Italian ports when it fell under Spanish rule.

As England loses free access to mainland Europe the same could happen to us. Give it a couple of hundred years and the English could be confined to the Isle of Wight or maybe Gibraltar.
 
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Clinton

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    £1 billion to Northern Ireland to keep the Tories in power.
    I agree, it's a bribe and the sad face of politics today.

    How much was Jeremy Corbyn willing to giveaway in his manifesto to bribe the UK electorate into voting for him?

    If we can't afford £1b we certainly can't afford tens of billions (and don't kid yourself that raising Corporation Tax etc will get all the multinationals paying tons more money!)
     
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    quikshop

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    No, I'm currently working my way through a history of Sicily. Some interesting parallels we might draw now. The Norman Kingdoms once stretched from the British Isles all the way to include Sicily and most of the Mediterranean. The Normans now occupies the island of Jersey. Its downfall could be attributed to losing free access to Italian ports when it fell under Spanish rule.

    As England loses free access to mainland Europe the same could happen to us. Give it a couple of hundred years and the English could be confined to the Isle of Wight or maybe Gibraltar.

    We finally agree on something, history could be a useful indicator of what is to come. I can highly recommend Peter Frankopan's The Silk Roads: A New History of the World. It would be easy to draw comparisons to a time when the British sided with the Ottomans against Catholic Spain and Portugal, as the Dutch and then the British resisted and ultimately superseded the dominant Southern European empires.

    That would be too simplistic, as is your parallel to the Norman Kingdoms.
     
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    we can't afford £1b

    Make that £8bn, as the Barnett formula has to kick-in and distribute x2 to Wales and x5 to Scotland.

    OK, the Scottish economy is roughly the same as the English, but the Welsh and NI economies have roughly half the GDP-per-capita and in the case of NI, is (IMO) completely self-inflicted!

    It was the founder of the DUP that in no small measure, helped to start the 'troubles' and thereby lead to the brain-drain from NI to either the UK or the RoI. That in turn has given NI a GDP-per-capita of about $25,000 - compare that with RoI, which is no roaring ahead with c.a. $69,000.

    For the DUP of all people to ask for extra funds because of problems that they themselves caused, is really the very height of damn cheek!
     
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    Newchodge

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    I agree, it's a bribe and the sad face of politics today.

    How much was Jeremy Corbyn willing to giveaway in his manifesto to bribe the UK electorate into voting for him?

    If we can't afford £1b we certainly can't afford tens of billions (and don't kid yourself that raising Corporation Tax etc will get all the multinationals paying tons more money!)

    Yes but May's bribe is designed to keep her in power when the electorate don't want her. Corbyn's was designed to ensure that people are being treated properly in this country.
     
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    Mr D

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    And now we have the wonderful example of corruption here at home. £1 billion to Northern Ireland to keep the Tories in power. Its not as if the NHS in NI needs more money, they don't even do abortions.

    Thought they did do them, just not as in England where it's at the request of doctors. Quite a bit less spent on that there, more spent on the maternity, paediatric etc?
     
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    Mr D

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    Yes but May's bribe is designed to keep her in power when the electorate don't want her. Corbyn's was designed to ensure that people are being treated properly in this country.

    The electorate have already decided they want her party in power. The party won the general election. Ok it was a couple of weeks back but you do recall who won?
    She is the leader of her party - the electorate do not get to vote for her outside her constituency.

    Labour won more seats than anyone expected when election called but he is a few dozen short of having enough to be able to claim he won. Hence labour are not in government and Corbyn is not PM.
     
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    Mr D

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    On Cornwall's average income many cannot afford the lifestyle. 27% of households have no car which in a rural area is difficult. During the school holidays some areas have families who cannot afford to go to the beach!

    Perhaps the people can move to where they can afford what they want to spend money on.
    Or change their income.

    Cannot see Cornwall changing it's lifestyle or providing free cars to people. So up to the people to solve the problems they perceive.
     
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    Mr D

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    Cornwall is one of the poorest areas in the United Kingdom with a GDP of 61.2 per cent of the national average in 2012. And the voters voted to be even poorer in the referendum.

    Were they not promised by the leave campaign they would not lose money?
    Pity the leave campaign were not actually in power then or since....
    Perhaps the people should have asked on the forums and been told to do due diligence and not take promises at face value. :)
     
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    Paul Norman

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    Cornwall is one of the poorest areas in the United Kingdom with a GDP of 61.2 per cent of the national average in 2012. And the voters voted to be even poorer in the referendum.


    They did. And let them have what they voted for. I am sure they understood. Or did they assume that London would make up the deficit?

    The same, of course, applies to the North East.
     
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    Paul Norman

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    Were they not promised by the leave campaign they would not lose money?
    Pity the leave campaign were not actually in power then or since....
    Perhaps the people should have asked on the forums and been told to do due diligence and not take promises at face value. :)


    This made me chuckle. But also is valid.

    I am sure some people did believe the promises. But actually, they were not even promises, just hints.

    But, as they say, the die has been cast.
     
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    Clinton

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    Yes but May's bribe is designed to keep her in power when the electorate don't want her. Corbyn's was designed to ensure that people are being treated properly in this country.
    That is why you should have voted for May.

    By not voting Conservative, you're partly responsible for this hung Parliament and the subsequent mess. :)
     
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    Paul Norman

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    That remains to be seen.

    When we no longer pay the EU, then there will be funds available.


    Only if every other economic variable remains absolutely constant. Which it won't.

    The truth is deliciously complex. There might be. And the government of the day might allocate it to Cornwall. They are not obliged to do so, and such funds might not materialise.
     
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    D

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    Maybe if the folk down in Cornwall had not sold all their houses to part time Londoners then people could afford to by full time houses down there and the revenue would increase
    What would you have them do? Not join the UK economy? I was speaking to someone on Saturday who had had to move to London to work. Should he have sold his Cornish house at a discount and then not be able to move?
     
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    Chris Ashdown

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    And he will be the same person moaning about holiday homes and kids cant live where they were born. Exactly same happens in Norfolk and Suffolk seaside towns at the posher end

    As to why any one would want to move to London from anywhere unless filthy rich i have no idea apart from maybe mental

    I would be very content to live in Falmouth if i could afford the prices
     
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    Mr D

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    And he will be the same person moaning about holiday homes and kids cant live where they were born. Exactly same happens in Norfolk and Suffolk seaside towns at the posher end

    As to why any one would want to move to London from anywhere unless filthy rich i have no idea apart from maybe mental

    I would be very content to live in Falmouth if i could afford the prices

    Improve the transport links from places outside London and you get more commuters - whether we like it or not a lot of the higher paid jobs stay in London.
     
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    Cobby

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    DUP deal about 1/796th of Government's planned annual spending.... and about 1/25th of what Labour promised to borrow each year.
    Oh, that makes it totally okay then. :|


    Making up shortfalls from elsewhere isn't as attractive as a new floating motorway / games pitch or purchasing private companies.
    And boy will there be a lot of shortfalls. :/
     
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    Cobby

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    That is why you should have voted for May.

    By not voting Conservative, you're partly responsible for this hung Parliament and the subsequent mess. :)
    Bwahahahaha *gasps for breath* vote for Thereeee *gasps* sa May!?! bwahahaha

    Seriously though, "the current mess" is *still* preferable to the vapid, dishonest and incompetent Conservative party running free and trashing the country.

    As Andrea Leadsom said, be more patriotic. ;)
     
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    Cobby my china - Labour routinely stuff up the economy, firstly needing the Great Maggie to sort out the 70's mess then a decidedly not so great David to fix the 2000's overspend.

    Only an ignoramus does not see that incompetent Commie Corbyn would need another decent replacement after a few years of his promised wild spending (if he stuck to his promises)
     
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    Clinton

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    Cobby my china - Labour routinely stuff up the economy, firstly needing the Great Maggie to sort out the 70's mess then a decidedly not so great David to fix the 2000's overspend.

    Only an ignoramus does not see that incompetent Commie Corbyn would need another decent replacement after a few years of his promised wild spending (if he stuck to his promises)
    I don't see Cobby's posts as I've got him blocked so can't tell what exactly you're replying to...But I agree with you, Labour did earn itself a reputation for economic incompetence.

    That said, and to be fair, both Gordon Brown and Alastair Darling did some good stuff in their time. Brown actually got the debt down a bit before 2008 hit. And his response to the credit crunch was widely copied by other economies including the US.

    Comrade Corbyn's ideas are, er, radical. They are so mad that they might just work. Spend lots and lots of money and the resultant higher economic activity may actually boost the coffers to compensate (or part compensate) for the spending. There are some respected economists who buy into that theory.

    The problem is that there are also lots of economists who think that's complete bonkers i.e. there's a high chance the plan will backfire. And if it does we're even higher up sh*t creek and even farther away from anything that looks remotely like a paddle.
     
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    D

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    Cobby my china - Labour routinely stuff up the economy, firstly needing the Great Maggie to sort out the 70's mess then a decidedly not so great David to fix the 2000's overspend.
    As I am apparently ten years older than you I remember things slightly differently. Labour was routinely blamed by the right wing press but the Tories caused some real stinkers. Doesn't anyone remember the mis-management of Heath, the wrecking of our industrial base by Thatcher, the clueless austerity of Cameron? A lot of people point to Wilson but his incompetence coincided with a golden age of British achievement. If the current Tories had been in charge in the sixties we would still be waiting for Concord's maiden flight.
     
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    Scott-Copywriter

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    Comrade Corbyn's ideas are, er, radical. They are so mad that they might just work. Spend lots and lots of money and the resultant higher economic activity may actually boost the coffers to compensate (or part compensate) for the spending. There are some respected economists who buy into that theory.

    The problem is that there are also lots of economists who think that's complete bonkers i.e. there's a high chance the plan will backfire. And if it does we're even higher up sh*t creek and even farther away from anything that looks remotely like a paddle.

    I think it's a case of how the method is applied more than anything else.

    After all, "spending your way into growth" can take many different forms on a granular level. Two plans could share the same fundamentals but be radically different in nature.

    I don't agree with Corbyn's proposed level of spending (I think the Lib Dems strike a better balance). But what I did appreciate was the fully costed aspect.

    Many people thought the "fully costed" claim was that extra taxes would pay back what is borrowed. In reality though, the extra income via taxes would service the increased interest payments caused by the additional debt.

    In theory, a Corbyn government would therefore take on a lot more debt, but avoid increasing the annual deficit in the process. They can then spend away, boost economic growth and shrink the deficit.

    The only issue is that, as you say, the plan is very risky. It puts a lot of reliance on strong growth to balance the books. If an economic slump did happen, the country would be in a lot more trouble.

    I much prefer the Lib Dems' way of doing it. Cut less than the Tories, and borrow less than Labour. Models actually showed that this would be the best outcome for the UK economy over the next decade.

    Unfortunately though, most Brits appear to be allergic to centrism.
     
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    Mr D

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    Buying up parts of the private sector - at a cost of tens of billions of pounds - was also risky. Being able to potentially cut household utility bills by 5 to 10 percent might look good. In year one.
    Nationalised industries not always as efficient as private sector.

    If people decide to change their minds by the next general election then maybe we will find out.
    Not to mention business finding out what it's like to not have corporate subsidy.
    Or be based in the UK.
     
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    quikshop

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    Nationalised industries not always as efficient as private sector.

    So, this is the bit I don't understand and I would welcome a left leaning thinker to explain.

    The public sector is mostly awful, inefficient, wasteful, slow to adapt to change and nepotistic. From Councils to the NHS my experience of them as a consumer and as a contractor working with them is the same.

    Don't get me wrong, the majority of public sector workers are well meaning, genuinely nice people who will go the extra mile to help, but are often hamstrung by incompetent leadership, layers of pointless middle management with serious capability issues, and yes sometimes a political bias that contributes to poor services, sometimes deliberately to undermine the Government of the day. Instead of serving the greater good, Unions serve to compound mediocrity by protecting the incompetent and lacking.

    So, I understand the theory of pouring money into the public sector, to nationalise services (e.g. trains) in the hope that more investment means better services for all, contributing towards that social conscience that our capitalist system is lacking.

    But without the motivation of making a money and turning a profit that drives a lot of the private sector efficiencies and innovation, how do you address the systemic problems within the public sector before you waste a tonne of money that would sadly be absorbed like a sponge without a correlation in front line service improvement?
     
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    Cobby

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    Cobby my china - Labour routinely stuff up the economy, firstly needing the Great Maggie to sort out the 70's mess then a decidedly not so great David to fix the 2000's overspend
    The World, Britain's place within it, and global economics are *exactly* the same as they were in the 70's and the turn of the millennium, so you don't even need your rose-tinted specs to make lazy comparisons!

    Only an ignoramus
    "Everyone who doesn't agree with me is stupid". I don't know about others but I rarely read past this point when a sentence begins with this.

    I don't see Cobby's posts as I've got him blocked
    Also known as the "fingers-in-the-ears-I'm-not-listening-to-arguments-I-can't-address-laaaa-laaa-laaaa" response :D
     
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