What global warming?

sysops

Free Member
Feb 1, 2007
2,918
885
CJD - I find myself in a very odd situation, I usually agree with almost everything you say, but you couldn't be more wrong on this.

First, you seem to use Wikipedia as your primary reference. All climate change articles in Wikipedia are horribly biased in favour of the mainstream view. It's a bit like using the BBC as your primary source, no value.

Much of the consensus is based upon the IPCC report, which was essentially stripped of almost all non-conforming opinions.

Academics are just people, who rely on grants to fund their research. If you are a climate scientist, you don't get funding unless you are mainstream. It's self fulfilling.
 
  • Like
Reactions: StephenW
Upvote 0

cjd

Business Member
  • Nov 23, 2005
    16,002
    3,436
    www.voipfone.co.uk
    CJD - I find myself in a very odd situation, I usually agree with almost everything you say, but you couldn't be more wrong on this.

    First, you seem to use Wikipedia as your primary reference. All climate change articles in Wikipedia are horribly biased in favour of the mainstream view. It's a bit like using the BBC as your primary source, no value.

    Well that's a statement that requires some evidence doesn't it? You will see that in my last Wiki post, the final line provides a wiki link to climate change sceptics. Is that biased too? If so how?

    I use wiki because it's the best online linkable resource, I also use IPCC because it's the world's resource of information on the science and the policy. If you know better sources, please show them

    Much of the consensus is based upon the IPCC report, which was essentially stripped of almost all non-conforming opinions.
    Again, that's a statement that requires evidence. The IPCC report attempts to summarise the science; if it excludes real peer reviewed dissenting science what is it?

    Academics are just people, who rely on grants to fund their research. If you are a climate scientist, you don't get funding unless you are mainstream. It's self fulfilling.
    Again, what is your evidence? I don't doubt that it is hard to fund dissenting research from public funds but there's plenty of private organisations out there with a lot to lose in a reduced carbon economy - where are their papers? (I mean peer reviewed science, not PR stunts).

    I feel the need to point out my personal position. I am ignorant of both the science and the politics of this issue. I simply put the argument that the world has reached a global consensus, both scientific and political on warming and I am not in a position to gainsay it. And, I suggest, neither are you or anyone else on this forum.

    Not only that, I can't see many downsides in reducing waste, pollution and destruction of habitats regardless of whether the science is right or wrong and don't consider the risk of inaction worth taking.

    I would also love some brilliant guy to come along and prove that we're all worrying about nothing. Wouldn't the world?
     
    Upvote 0

    cjd

    Business Member
  • Nov 23, 2005
    16,002
    3,436
    www.voipfone.co.uk
    I see Soot is now climbing onto warming's growing list of enemies

    Soot warming 'maybe bigger than greenhouse gases' - NASA

    Forget Copenhagen CO2 cuts, tune your diesel properly
    By Lewis Page
    Posted in Environment, 15th December 2009 12:16 GMT

    Researchers from NASA's Goddard Space Flight Centre, also the home of famous carbopocalypse doom-prophet James Hansen, have repeated earlier assertions that atmospheric soot may be as important as greenhouse gases in driving global warming.

    This could be good news for humanity, as atmospheric soot levels would be much easier to reduce. Filtering soot out of exhausts from diesel engines and coal burners is simple compared to removing and sequestering CO2, and as an added benefit the effects would be rapid: soot doesn't persist in the atmosphere for long periods the way greenhouse gases do, as it is washed out by rain or snow. However, many environmental campaigners would resist the idea of soot taking centre stage, fearing that this could lead to a reduced emphasis on greenhouse-gas emissions reductions.
    nasa_glaciers.jpg
    Ice running off the gutters of the 'roof of the world'.

    Earlier investigations including the effect of soot had focused on the Arctic, where Goddard scientists have previously suggested that "the impact of aerosols is just as strong as that of the greenhouse gases". Aerosols include soot, which tends to heat the atmosphere, plus sulphates and others which cool it. Unfortunately sulphates also cause acid rain, and clean-air regs in the US and Europe have seen them massively reduced - and the Arctic warm up.

    Now, Goddard researchers have carried out new investigations into the effects of sooty aerosols on the glaciers of the Himalayas - sometimes known as the planet's "Third Pole". Glacial melting in the Himalayas has received a lot of play in the greenly-inclined media lately against the background of the COP15 international climate talks underway in Copenhagen; it is widely felt that the mountain ice is disappearing much faster even than CO2-alarmist climate models predict, and that this is a reason to suggest that the Copenhagen talks - focused entirely on greenhouse-gas emissions - may be the last chance for humanity to save itself from a disastrous climate apocalypse.
     
    Upvote 0

    sysops

    Free Member
    Feb 1, 2007
    2,918
    885
    I feel the need to point out my personal position. I am ignorant of both the science and the politics of this issue. I simply put the argument that the world has reached a global consensus, both scientific and political on warming and I am not in a position to gainsay it. And, I suggest, neither are you or anyone else on this forum.

    You keep asking for evidence, when I have some spare time over xmas I will dig up some relevant links.

    As for the above statement, as someone who has studies environmental chemistry at both undergrad and postgrad level, I feel fairly confident in my ability to poke holes in the huge hoax being perpetrated.

    The consensus is wrong and self-serving. It isn't based on science, it is pure politics.

    I really wish I had more time to put into this right now, but sadly it'll have to wait until we've shut down on the 24th.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Tin
    Upvote 0

    cjd

    Business Member
  • Nov 23, 2005
    16,002
    3,436
    www.voipfone.co.uk
    You keep asking for evidence, when I have some spare time over xmas I will dig up some relevant links.

    I wouldn't bother, there's stacks of dissenting papers around - a few are from real scientists that know what they're doing, - but it doesn't help us here.

    The problem for the deniers is that they have lost the argument at the science level - 97% of climatologists that have published papers agree with climate warming. It really doesn't matter if 3% don't - unless of course they have the clinching evidence that Noble Prizes are made of.

    The consensus is wrong and self-serving. It isn't based on science, it is pure politics.
    Now this is the bit that I really struggle to understand. Whose interests does it serve to have climate warming as a fact? As far as I can see it's against almost all the powerful nations interests to act on warming - the USA has fought against it from the off, they argue that funding their economic competitors and hobbling their own industry is daft.

    The developing economies in China and India hate it because they want their own industrial revolutions, the massive Oil industry and petrochemical countries still resist it heavily.

    So what global power gets to benefit? I don't know.
     
    Upvote 0

    sysops

    Free Member
    Feb 1, 2007
    2,918
    885
    The problem for the deniers is that they have lost the argument at the science level - 97% of climatologists that have published papers agree with climate warming. It really doesn't matter if 3% don't

    But that's not science.

    The difference between science and the X Factor is that the X Factor is based on opinion - if everyone thinks someone is the best, then by definition they are the best. In science, it doesn't matter what the majority think, the majority can be (and historically frequently are) wrong.

    What matters is what you can prove through reproducible data. So far, apart from a few hideously exaggerated graphs, there is no data which proves that man's activities have a measurable influence on the planet's climate.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: StephenW
    Upvote 0

    cjd

    Business Member
  • Nov 23, 2005
    16,002
    3,436
    www.voipfone.co.uk
    But that's not science.

    Of course it is, it's exactly what science is. Climate science isn't a lone boffin working for a breakthrough in a cellar somewhere; it's thousands of institutions testing, checking and confirming or binning the theories and evidence of other experts then trying to form an overarching concensus.

    It's the basis of all new drug testing, you don't just rely on one set of results by one scientist, you gather all the work in the field and see if it is coincident or simply random - it's the best form of proof in complex systems we can get. But of course it's not perfect.

    , it doesn't matter what the majority think, the majority can be (and historically frequently are) wrong.
    What? That's so wrong I'm breathless!

    The fact that the majority can be wrong is completely irrelevent. You can't infer from that the minority are therefore right. Or even that they are equally probable to be right.

    A rational individual has to conclude that if there is a scientific consensus (ie not political or opinion based consensus) then it is more probable to be correct than incorrect. And that's what they're saying, that there is a 90% chance of being man made warming.

    Maybe someone will come along and prove it wrong, quite possible I reckon (I'm still sceptical myself) but you'd be bonkers to bet on it.
     
    Upvote 0
    What the science says...

    PART I

    What is wrong with this, are many things. First scientific organizations are not the ones who make science. Scientific organizations are run by councils that take political decisions based on many issues, the most important one is where the funds are coming from. Would yo admit that because the government of this country decided to invade Iraq all the British people supported the decision? Why then what the council of an organization needs to represent the opinion of 100% of its members?
    As for those polls, why would we need to have a intermediary to tell us what some scientist think? why don't they come out on the BBC in person and explain to the general public that the weather is colder since 1998 but we are causing global warming? It is simple and straight forward.
    As for the abstracts, again, bring them here, so, if there are so many peer reviewed papers that say categorically that humans are causing a catastrophic climate change, bring a sample of them. Why would I trust a poll done on science workers whose job and funding depends on the believe that there is a man made global warming going on? What kind of result would come if you ask a bunch of footballers what sport needs more attention? The day, which is not far from now, that all this wears off, the think that will happen is that many of those scientist in the poll will have to find another job.
    This is exactly like when in the XVI century the Catholic Church forbade its members reading and interpreting the bible by themselves, we need a middleman, who is generally not a scientist, to interpret what they say and why. You pretend, as many do, in this, yes Stalinist style campaign, that we trust what we can't see. Specially after the scandal of the emails of the EAU came out, where we can clearly see the pressures applied to try to prevent scientist from publishing their work when it didn't conform with the official truth, and where we see, some thing unprecedented, that they claim the threw the row data in the dust bin, which I don't believe for a moment. I still have at my home data, code, etc., more than 20 years ago because those things you never discard.
    To prove that this is an Stalinist style campaign, you only needed to watch the TV this morning. Gordon Brown came out to say that in a few years the Maldives will be evacuating their people, not even what the IPCC report says suggest that, but who cares? if it scares people is good enough for him. Which is shame because at one point I really believed that Gordon Brown was an honest person, I really liked the guy because he didn't come out as a bible salesman like Tony Blair or David Cameron, that this only tell me how first impressions can be deceptive.

    Another testament to how Stalinist this campaign is, is you and the attitude of other activists like you. I asked you many times. If you do not have a clue about, not only of the science involved, but of science in general, not even at college level, what are you doing here pretending to have the capacity to discuss this issues? You act as a, as we say in may mother tongue, "run, go and tell", some one who runs the errant of preaching what others want you to say without a clue of the meaning of what your are saying. You could just say that you do not understand what the science say, and because of that you have to pick some one to believe in and you have decided to believe that, period. But not, you feel hurt every time some one argue the opposite case, so you search the Internet to find a link from your masters to spread their propaganda. Why? What moves you to make a fool of yourself? If someone wants to debate the science, they do not need you. I challenge here any member of the CRU, the University of East Anglia, or where ever, to come out here and put their arguments forward, to explain their models and post the code of their computer programs, and we can take it from there. But worry not, they will not come out, here or anywhere else, they would rather lie and say that they threw the row data away before debating anything, with me or with the other academics who requested to see the row data.
    There are several possibilities:
    - That you hope for a position in the administration and you do as a former boss of mine, who after saying in an interview that he didn't have doubts about man-made global warming (not his area of expertise anyway) he was appointed to a high position in a governmental science program (not in this country though). We have to discard this possibility because you obviously lack the minimum skill necessary for it.
    - That you are a Labour Party activist/sympathizer and any criticism to the official truth is taking by you as an attack on the party and, by association, an personal attack. Some sort of labour zealot similar to the Christian zealots of the past and present.
    - That you are Envirmentalist activist/sympathizer, because you need some thing to belong to. Weak personality, fear of been lonely with your own opinion, very likely personality since you have proved that you lack the strength of character and the intellect to even try to understand the concept of temperature even if it only was to put me in the spot. Some one for whom life would be unbearable if he can not find a firm truth to believe in, and some one who give you reassurances on that incontrovertible truth, and, on the way, feel part of the "good guys" club. Nothing new, this is what religions are made of.
    The last two possibilities are the only ones plausible. I bet you get kink fantasizing how your masters and the fellow members of the "good guys club" would congratulate you if they only knew the enthusiasm you put into defending the cause. Be assured, you will go to heaven.
     
    Upvote 0
    PART II
    But, leaving your boring personality aside, what this issue is really about?
    Has nothing to do with science and all to do with economics and politics. Is, again, a smoke screen to do what some politicians know they have to do, but can't if they do not find a good excuse for it. For those who are interested, I will explain.
    Since about 25 or 30 years ago, we are leaving an era in which the orthodoxy is the global economy, global free markets with no exception for every good and services, and free flow of capitals. This is an idea designed to favour developed countries and which makes a lot of sense, with some tuning, when is applied among countries with similar level of development. But is also an idea that can caused, and has caused greater disasters in many parts of the world, including many deaths, than the disasters with which they try to scare us with with this scam of Global Warming. The number of deaths and misery caused by globalization, when applied to underdeveloped countries far eceeds all the deaths cause by terrorism. But is all very well when if favours the advocates of that policy. But that policy has some drawbacks even for the developed nations, mainly the USA, the UE, Japan, etc.
    We have just seen it. The recent financial crisis is not other thing that a consequence of that. They tell us that the crisis was caused because a bunch of people borrowed too much money and a bunch of bankers lent too much money. But, what did they expect bankers to do with an excess of money if they can not lend it? The problem was, what they euphemistically call it , global imbalances, which is a word used to hide the fact that the crisis was caused by the way the global economy evolved: In the West we stopped manufacturing things, because it is cheaper to have then done in China, India, Vietnam, etc. So, we buy their products, send them money in exchange for their products, we spend less for the products we buy, there fore we have an excess of cash, and more importantly, because the flow of cash going into China, India, etc., can not possibly be invested in economies that have not yet developed an internal market, they end up as deposits in western banks that promise them an healthy return on their deposits. How do they get those returns? obviously they need to lend that many, of which there is a lot, and generate a bauble that in time has to burst.
    So, now there is a talk about stronger regulation of the financial markets, to correct the global imbalances, etc. In a few words there is talk in backtracking on the premises of free flow of capitals and even goods and services around the world, with new taxes, new regulations, etc. Let's see how far this new measures go. But to do this u-turn in the attitude to the free market, foremost, when it comes to the financial services, politicians needed an excuse and it came in the form of a great crisis that was long expected although not with the severity that turn out.
    What does this has to do with Global Warming? Well, it has to do with the fact that the energy markets are in a similar situation. Energy is something that no country, least of all an industrialized country can't do without, even more so than it can't do without financial services. It is very odd that it should be subject exclusively to market forces as every country needs to have energy and there is no possible decision of whether to buy or not to buy. Is something that, at least in this country and the other European countries, is well understood when it comes to the health service. We do not let the market do dictate who has access to the health services because we assume that if some one would take the decision not to seek medical help when is ill is because he or she is suffering form a mental illness. So, there is no decision, no freedom, in whether we go to the doctor or not when we are seriously ill.
    Despite of that, since several decades now, countries like the UK and many other have been pressing from the opening of the energy markets of all the countries. There was even made a policy of the EU, that was resisted by countries like France, that the free market should control how energy is produced, distributed, and how the prices should be established. Yet, at the moment this policy was pushed through, it was known that it couldn't be. The market but it self, as it has not national loyalty, can not warranty energy security for any country in particular, not even for international organizations like the EU. It only takes the expansion of the economy in China, India and other countries on the region, that are far stronger, if it comes to fight for oil, than us to see the threat looming in the horizon. It was clear in the early nineties what the situation could become in a few decades. More so, if to the development of Asia we have to ad the impending development of Latin America, and Africa. The fact that the UK has depleted its natural gas reserves and that its oil reserves are now in their way to extinction, helps to put the UK on the same footing as France, for instance.
    So, what do people like Gordon Brown do? Well, the same as with the financial crisis. They couldn't intervene in the economy if that was done only by one or two countries because the global financial and economic system could render that intervention harmful. Money pured into banks here could end up in banks every where in the World. So, they do two things, one is devalue the pound, which the UK can do because it kept its own currency, printing bank notes as crazy, and then Gordon Brown goes around the wold persuading every other government to intervene in the financial markets as well, so there wouldn't be a gradient of government cash from country to country. What do they do when it comes to backtrack in energy policy and want to the government intervene and dictate the energy policy in the country without saying that they are re-negating on the policy the imposed on other with a lot of arm twisting? They create a common threat, funding research groups to prove what they want them to, and then they call on the International Community to take measures to do so. And those measures amount to all the governments in the world to intervene in the energy market at once, of course, guided by the ones who know best who are the developed countries.
    So, they gather in Copenhagen, but before that the UE decides in a meeting to create a big carrot for the developing countries in the form of financial aids to try to secure their cooperation. So, the idea is, unlike the Kyoto treaty, what ever comes from this conference, will not be binding, not only that, it will replace the Kyoto treaty, so no developed country will have their hands tied up. But the developed countries will, because the big carrot will be subject to them behaving well. They will agree to reduce CO2 emissions, which is ca code word for oil consumption, to a level that they trust they can do it because we have the technology. They try to persuade the developing countries that they are to gain, by using the carrot money to by to us, the technology needed to use clean energy sources (as if CO2 was a pollutant), and then they can sell their CO2 quota to the west for money and be rich and happy.
    It is quite a racist strategy because is made under the assumption that because their are poor they are stupid, or the other way around: they are poor because they are stupid, may be they don't have he right genes.
    The master plan is different, since this Carbon emission quota is designed to make other energy sources, that at the moment are not economically sensible, like nuclear which is more expensive than coal and gas, or wind which is in the fringe, more economically attractive. But what it will happen is that when the incentive is applied, along with a foreseeable long term increase in the oil price, the West will greatly reduce the dependence on oil, having avoided in the mean time competition from the developing countries thanks to the big carrot, hindering their development, and using them, by making them buy our green technology, help us indirectly not avoid buying from them the CO2 emission quotas, leaving them in the cold, again, with another broken promise. That is why the African countries walked out of the negotiations this week.
    To gain support for this master plan of advocating a global free economy while, at the same time, they promote a massive, biased in favour of the West, intervention in the market, they agree to spend a little money, much less than the carrot money, to pay (and threaten to withdraw) assumed scientific institutions if they are good and say what they need to promote the cause. Propaganda is a very powerful tool, all religious leaders know it, Stalin and Hitler knew it, and todays politicians know it even better.
     
    Upvote 0

    sysops

    Free Member
    Feb 1, 2007
    2,918
    885
    Of course it is, it's exactly what science is. Climate science isn't a lone boffin working for a breakthrough in a cellar somewhere; it's thousands of institutions testing, checking and confirming or binning the theories and evidence of other experts then trying to form an overarching concensus.

    But they aren't. All that's going on is that they are juggling a limited dataset around, with the aim of proving man made global warming.
     
    Upvote 0

    cjd

    Business Member
  • Nov 23, 2005
    16,002
    3,436
    www.voipfone.co.uk
    But they aren't. All that's going on is that they are juggling a limited dataset around, with the aim of proving man made global warming.

    Where on earth does this idea come from? It's pure conspiracy theory without a reason for the conspiracy.
     
    Upvote 0

    sysops

    Free Member
    Feb 1, 2007
    2,918
    885
    Where on earth does this idea come from? It's pure conspiracy theory without a reason for the conspiracy.

    Again, you'll have to excuse my brief replies, I'm very short of time today.

    You'd be amazed at how few datasets there actually are - most climate change 'science' is based on surface temperature data (recent) and ice core data (long term).

    Long term we know that temperature is all over the place, in cycles which are closely coupled to the sun's cycles. Here's a nice wiki link for you ;-)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vostok-ice-core-petit.png

    The last 150 years is all we have for surface data. This does show a warming over that period (no one disputes this, but the extent is disputed). What is missing is anything to link this to human activity - the links is as tenuous as that between pirate numbers and global temperatures.

    http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/
     
    Upvote 0

    cjd

    Business Member
  • Nov 23, 2005
    16,002
    3,436
    www.voipfone.co.uk
    For those who are interested, I will explain

    Thanks for that, I think we're all very clear now how your mind works.

    (btw, 4 Stalins but only one Hitler there, I think you need to up the Nazi references a little, they're falling behind)
     
    Upvote 0

    cjd

    Business Member
  • Nov 23, 2005
    16,002
    3,436
    www.voipfone.co.uk
    Interesting that up untill the summer of 1976 the experts were predicting a new ice age.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_United_Kingdom_heat_wave

    Earl

    I remember reading it at the time - we were all going to freeze.

    I also remember seeing a headline in my Dad's Daily Express when I was small that said 'Free Electricity'. Apparently nuclear energy would make electricity so cheap that it wouldn't be economic to charge for it.

    Scientists, politicians and journalists ain't perfect by a long chalk.

    (What does 'long chalk actually mean??)
     
    Upvote 0
    Thanks for that, I think we're all very clear now how your mind works.

    At least it works, which is a lot more than can be said of yours.

    (btw, 4 Stalins but only one Hitler there, I think you need to up the Nazi references a little, they're falling behind)

    Why would you care? can you tell the difference? the only thing you need to know if that they were bad bad, very bad people and they were not environmentalists.
     
    Upvote 0

    cjd

    Business Member
  • Nov 23, 2005
    16,002
    3,436
    www.voipfone.co.uk
    At least it works, which is a lot more than can be said of yours.

    Now you're making me laugh out loud and people are looking at me, stop it you beast you.
     
    Upvote 0
    You're too late, I think I saw that one in the papers about fifteen years ago :D

    I think they should be given more air time on TV, honestly, too many repetitions lately, I miss good comedy programs.
    Have you heard, or read, anyone saying that F1 races should be done in such a way that every time cars run in the opposite direction to the previous race o avoid adding extra angular momentum the the Earth and, therefore, altering the duration of the rotation or our planet around its axis? that would be a good one.
    What a read, not in English though, is a guy who claims, I am not sure if seriously or not, that wind farms are causing global warming by unnaturally slowing down the speed of air and preventing the Earth from, kind of, ventilating it self.
     
    Upvote 0
    I remember reading it at the time - we were all going to freeze.

    I also remember seeing a headline in my Dad's Daily Express when I was small that said 'Free Electricity'. Apparently nuclear energy would make electricity so cheap that it wouldn't be economic to charge for it.

    Scientists, politicians and journalists ain't perfect by a long chalk.

    (What does 'long chalk actually mean??)

    The experts also told us at school that we would only work 20 hours a week in the future,and our problem would be what to do with all our leisure time.?:D

    Seems to many experts spoil the broth.;)

    Earl
     
    Last edited:
    Upvote 0
    Now you're making me laugh out loud and people are looking at me, stop it you beast you.

    Haven't you noticed? People is always looking at you, very shyly of course, because they fear to make eye contact with a hero that they surely consider super human. Wasn't your childhood dream? to be someone? Ain't this modern times great?! When idiots can think of themselves as champions of the world without the burden of having to think or spend time and effort into understanding anything.
    Believe and be saved!
    The end of the World is near!
    Doesn't it sound like your type of message? Pity is not original though.
    What we can say about the scaremongering pseudo-science of the climate change is what one of the greatest British scientists, Dirac, once said when sitting in the tribunal of a PhD thesis:
    "Your thesis contains many interesting and original results. The problem is that what is original is not interesting and what is interesting is not original"
     
    Upvote 0
    RELAX, and while the World approaches its final hour when it will be consumed by high temperatures and strong winds, let me tell you a story.
    There was this warmist scientist that noticed that when ever went out, the next morning he would be having a bad hangover and he didn't know why. So, annoyed, he decided to investigate the matter. He reached the conclusion that it must have to be some thing he drank since he never eat anything when he went out nor was he a smoker or was taking any drugs, bought a brand new notebook and pencil, and decided to keep a record of every thing he drank every time he went out.
    After a few weeks, feeling that he had enough row data, he decided to analyze it and see if any conclusions could be drawn from it. He saw that the first time, since records began, he went out he only drank rum with cocacola, and he had a terrible hangover. The second time, he observed, he only had vodka with cocacola, and also had a hangover. Third time, he observed, he only had gin with cocacola, and the hangover was there the next morning. The conclusion was obvious, he said to himself "For the life of me, I will never drink cocacola ever again"
     
    Upvote 0

    cjd

    Business Member
  • Nov 23, 2005
    16,002
    3,436
    www.voipfone.co.uk
    So the next day he had whisky only, but still had a hangover.

    Being a real scientist he discarded his first hypothesis and redesigned his experiment, finally proving beyond all doubt that it was the low beam in the gent's toilets that gave him the headache.
     
    Upvote 0
    From an interesting article in the LA Times:

    "We do not believe the East Anglia e-mails expose a conspiracy that invalidates the larger body of evidence demonstrating anthropogenic warming; nevertheless, the damage to public confidence in climate science, particularly among Republicans and independents, may be enormous. The terrible danger -- one that has been brewing for years -- is that the invaluable role science should play in informing policy and politics will be irrevocably undermined, as citizens come to see science as nothing more than a tool for partisans of all stripes."

    As they say, read the whole thing.
     
    Upvote 0
    News just in....

    "Climategate has already affected Russia. On Tuesday, the Moscow-based Institute of Economic Analysis (IEA) issued a report claiming that the Hadley Center for Climate Change based at the headquarters of the British Meteorological Office in Exeter (Devon, England) had probably tampered with Russian-climate data.

    The IEA believes that Russian meteorological-station data did not substantiate the anthropogenic global-warming theory."

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/j...anipulated-data-to-exaggerate-global-warming/
     
    Upvote 0

    cjd

    Business Member
  • Nov 23, 2005
    16,002
    3,436
    www.voipfone.co.uk
    From an interesting article in the LA Times

    Well that's a jolly good article.

    Science, in other words, is replete with the same human failings that mark all other social activities........... the ideal of pure science as a source of truth that can cut through politics is false.
    This is undeniably true but there's a common error here - it's not the scientists that produce truth - scientists have some of the biggest egos and least social graces you'll find in mankind; battles between them are legendary and dirty - but the scientific process sorts them out; in time.

    What we're seeing at work here is the process writ large. In time the truth will appear and science will find it, not politics (although they of course think they have the truth already). Unfortunately in this issue a large chunk of humankind is at stake and the science doesn't have a hundred years to fight it out so the politicians are now in play.

    I was talking to a real professor at a real university who researches into difficult really difficult genetic stuff this week. I said I felt sorry for Mann at UEA, he's just a chap who worked in a boring thing called climate in a really nerdy kind of way. All of a sudden he's the centre of world attention. I said I felt the university had let him down - he should have been protected by a huge PR machine.

    He said something like 'if that had been me and I'd got the uni into that kind of trouble I'd have been sacked on the spot for leading the university into disrepute.'

    Just shows what I know.
     
    Upvote 0

    cjd

    Business Member
  • Nov 23, 2005
    16,002
    3,436
    www.voipfone.co.uk
    News just in....

    "Climategate has already affected Russia.

    I also just heard the Uk's Chief Scientist (I'll look him up in a mo) hint VERY strongly on live TV (Newsnight) that the hack of UEA was extremely sophisticated, over a long period of time (since 1998) and involved several media - including tapped mobile phone calls - and that the leak was timed to coincide with Copenhagen. Now what kind of organisation could do that?

    I feel so much safer now the matter is in the hands of the world's politicians. Fantastic.
     
    Upvote 0
    I also just heard the Uk's Chief Scientist (I'll look him up in a mo) hint VERY strongly on live TV (Newsnight) that the hack of UEA was extremely sophisticated, over a long period of time (since 1998) and involved several media - including tapped mobile phone calls - and that the leak was timed to coincide with Copenhagen. Now what kind of organisation could do that?

    Are there also tapped mobile phone calls? wow, I want to hear them, where are they? in the same place where the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction are?
    I can't believe that Britain's 'Top' Scientist, whatever that means, can be such an ignorant about IT. To copy the mail spool directory in a unix server, you only need to have a user account into the server with privileges to read that directory, and it takes less than 5 min. Most people either use IMAP to read the email, or POP3 but keep the messages in the server as a backup, and they are stored there for many years, until they decide to delete them. So, the fact that the emails are dated back to 1998 doesn't mean that they were hacked in 1998, they could have been hacked one month ago.
    Thank God you don't like conspiracy theories, well, unless they are proposed by Britain's 'Top' scientist. By the way, when you look him or her up, make sure to check what contribution he or she made to science that will grant him or her a place in the XXII century text books.

    I feel so much safer now the matter is in the hands of the world's politicians. Fantastic.

    Of course, they always look out for our best interests, even though they look now as if they have a death wish considering the lack of progress in Copenhagen.
     
    Upvote 0
    There was this guy flying in a balloon who got stranded. All the sudden the balloon lost pressure and smoothly fell down on a field. As he saw a guy walking by he decided to ask "excuse me Sir, where am I?". The other guy looked at him, and took his time to think, and kept on thinking for quite a while, until he said "you are standing inside a balloon basket". So, the guy in the balloon then said, "you are mathematician, aren't you?", and the other guy: "yes, how did you figured it out?", "easy", he replied,"I asked you a simple question, it took you a while to come up with an answer and then what you said was perfectly correct and totally useless".
     
    Upvote 0
    This article suggests the e-mails were not the result of a simple hack but maybe a leak.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/...alysis-shows-climategate-likely-to-be-a-leak/

    It was the Russians, you idiot, they are sneaky and treacherous, and very very naughty, and they made it look like an inside job.
    Well the truth is that it is always a leak, but anyway thank you for the link, I downloaded the FIO2009.zip file and I am having a laugh reading in the documents directory. This file HARRY_READ_ME.txt is boring but fun, lets have a sample:
    The author is talking about the data analysis he or she is doing:
    "Here, the expected 1990-2003 period is MISSING - so the correlations aren't so hot! Yet
    the WMO codes and station names /locations are identical (or close). What the hell is
    supposed to happen here? Oh yeah - there is no 'supposed', I can make it up. So I have :)"
    There you are, she or he made it up. I bet is a he, but for PC correctness, I keep both options.

    I found some row data, there are probably more on the Internet, but this are a good example I think. http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/tabledata/GLB.Ts.txt
    They go from 1880 till almost today.

    If someone has a flair for numbers, and like pastimes you can have a look at them and see if you find something curious, as I did. I downloaded them and put into a spreadsheet ( I played a bit more and actually made a few plots, but this is irrelevant at the moment). It is not hard to see, but since I wasn't looking I took me to do some averages and standard deviations to figure it out.
     
    Upvote 0

    Subbynet

    Free Member
    Aug 1, 2005
    6,000
    1,101
    45
    Luton
    I found some row data, there are probably more on the Internet, but this are a good example I think. http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/tabledata/GLB.Ts.txt
    They go from 1880 till almost today.

    If someone has a flair for numbers, and like pastimes you can have a look at them and see if you find something curious, as I did. I downloaded them and put into a spreadsheet ( I played a bit more and actually made a few plots, but this is irrelevant at the moment). It is not hard to see, but since I wasn't looking I took me to do some averages and standard deviations to figure it out.

    Wtf? Do you work for the CRU?

    That last paragraph is as cryptic as the one you've quoted above. Just shows, sometimes even when we have the full conversation it can be hard to understand what someone means.
     
    Upvote 0

    cjd

    Business Member
  • Nov 23, 2005
    16,002
    3,436
    www.voipfone.co.uk
    Wtf? Do you work for the CRU?

    Best to just smile benignly and pat him gently on the head, he thinks he can get the 'right' answer with a spreadsheet and a sharp pencil; bless. Nurse will be along in a minute.
     
    Upvote 0
    Wtf? Do you work for the CRU?

    That last paragraph is as cryptic as the one you've quoted above. Just shows, sometimes even when we have the full conversation it can be hard to understand what someone means.

    If there is something you don't understand, just ask. And no, I am not an idiot, I don't work for the CRU.

    To understand what those numbers tell you do not need to work for the CRU, not even need to be a 'TOP climate scientist', is such a thing exist. The only thing you need is a basic understanding of numbers and how the seasons change on the planet.
    What they tell us is that, well into the XX century, the data shown there were mostly collected in the northern hemisphere, I bet mostly in Europe and the USA. So, they are basing a conclusion (if any conclusion could be based on year to year data, or month to month data, since a basic understanding of thermology would tell you that that is completely nuts) on ignorance.
     
    Upvote 0
    Best to just smile benignly and pat him gently on the head, he thinks he can get the 'right' answer with a spreadsheet and a sharp pencil; bless. Nurse will be along in a minute.

    Yeah, you are right. Not like you, though, that to get the right answer you only need to ask you local party leader. By know I know you are a party activist, a wolf in a sheep skin, why? A environmentalist activist wouldn't try to persuade, in such a naive manner, to "trust the world political leaders". Environmentalists, by their very nature (paranoid) distrust politicians, that's what they do. Being environmentalist and distrusting politicians is one and the same. So, this childish way of your party to try to take over the enviromentalist movement is one of the best jokes ever.

    Oh well...., be assured of something, if there is a God, He has a sense of humour. Today is the last day of the Copenhagen Climate Change Summit, while we are in the middle of the worse cold blast in several years. Not only here, if you are tempted to sing the tune of the anecdotal events, I got a mail from my sister this morning, form Southern Europe saying that last night they've been at -12C. I know you haven't got a clue about anything scientific, but that is cold, is very cold, trust me.

    Can I ask you a question? First of all, I don't give a fart about who you are. But I wonder why you are so kin to hide behind those three initials. Most of us use our surname (I, for instance), forename, or a nickname to make the "relationship" kind of more human. So, looks odd that someone may be so shy or thinks that s/he may loose credibility, and therefore efficiency int his/her evangelisation mission.

    Only morons like you can show off their ignorance and then try to ridicule any argument that they can not reply. And morons like you are the ones who brought this great country, were many of us were lured because its fantastic scientific tradition, to what is now, where 'top scientist' are named on the merit of favoring a political agenda instead of their scientific contribution to the broader science community, where being dishonest has become an asset in an scholar's CV. You may try again to make us look at the finger that points to the truth, rather than to the truth, and come up again with another conspiracy theory about being the cossacks or the sisters of mercy who hacked the emails (and other very interesting files, by the way), that the emails say what they say, and who ever hacked them it doesn't change that a bit.
     
    Upvote 0
    There were this three scientists traveling in a train when they entered Scotland. As the train goes along the country side they pass by a herd of sheep, all white. So, a Earth Scientist that was in the group said, "Hey! Look, sheep in Scotland are all white". The physicist who heard it replied, "No, you can't say that, the only thing we know is that the is a herd of sheep in Scotland and that in that herd all sheep are white". But then a mathematician was also there and was getting annoyed by the conversation, so he couldn't help but intervene and said:
    "You are both so wrong! The only thing we can say on that matter is that there is at least one herd of sheep in Scotland, and, in that herd, all sheep have at least half of their body of the colour white"
     
    Upvote 0

    Subbynet

    Free Member
    Aug 1, 2005
    6,000
    1,101
    45
    Luton
    So Casado, despite all this talk, and by god are you doing a lot of talking, you don't actually have anything to add to the great discussion other than rhetoric.

    You claim to be able to understand, and work with this data. You even claim to have done calculations of your own which draw conclusions which even we should be able to see. But you fail to release your data, nor actually tell us what it is you've found.

    You'd make a better politician than you ever would a scientist.
     
    Upvote 0

    Gary Stevens

    Free Member
    Oct 27, 2009
    21
    3
    I agree with Cornish Steve another piece of government propoganda to worry the masses and an excuse to charge more under a label known as "climate levy". I fail to see what small effort we do will ever save the planet when on a daily basis tons of atoms are being exploded in the atmosphere from North Korea and Afghanistan. We are told the Winters are getting warmer (not this week we are under snow conditions) and the Summer's are getting wetter...That small part maybe right.
     
    Upvote 0
    So Casado, despite all this talk, and by god are you doing a lot of talking, you don't actually have anything to add to the great discussion other than rhetoric.

    You claim to be able to understand, and work with this data. You even claim to have done calculations of your own which draw conclusions which even we should be able to see. But you fail to release your data, nor actually tell us what it is you've found.

    You'd make a better politician than you ever would a scientist.

    Well, if you think rhetoric is your problem, I think. More so if you think that I can work with these data and you can't.
    May be cjd, because of his or her limited skills thinks that you need a supercomputer to analyse 1548, 3 digits, numbers. I wonder what computer his or her accountant must be using to analyse his or her business invoices.
    Which part are you interested on? the part that tells the history of the lack of data and therefore we can not conclude that the average temperature in 1998 can not be said to be unprecedented even in a short term period, or, put in another way, that the data is compatible with the statement that the same average temperature in 1998 was also there at the end of the XIX century, or the part (which require some explaining of basic physics, specifically basic concepts of thermology) in which I say that regardless of it the data are irrelevant?
    The skill to extract from that set of data the yearly average temperature and the standard deviation, should be considered general knowledge, more so when that comes as standard in any spread sheet application (I only use OpenOffice on Linux, by the way). Which in this case gives us the minimum deviation, since data are given already averaged over a month period, so, if we wanted to me more precise, we would have to add the monthly standard deviation to the yearly standard deviation. But since that would go on may favour, and I don't need favours, lets forget about it. So, you will see that the statistical indetermination on the data decreases enormously as we approach the end of the end of the last century. Well, that has nothing to do, obviously, with improving thermometers as we have not taken into account systematic errors so far as we do not have the information about it, we need to assume that those are much smaller than this deviations otherwise this analysis wouldn't make sense, and the situation would be even worse. If you don't like to look at numbers, you can see a plot, I didn't save the link, if you go the the Met Office website an look for the plot of temperatures "since records began", and you would actually see what I am telling you here, in a nice little graph.
    Why then we see that. It was yesterday that before leaving I played a bit with it looking at this things, kind of a pastime. But then, if you look at each row, what do you see? What you see in the rows until well into the XX century, is the changes of the seasons, January colder than July, for instance. Is that what we should expect? Well, we don't see that in the latter rows, why? Because, specially after the II WW, and more so in the fifties, when the Americans were interested in studying the Pacific Ocean and its climate, the weight of temperature readings in the southern hemisphere, as it should be, is more or less the same as the northern hemisphere, and since the seasons in both hemispheres are in inversely correlated, when here is summer there is winter and so, on, when you take them together it smooths out the variations along the year. That is why the standard deviation decreases.
    But standard deviations are just a guess, a statistical guess of what we do not know. Nos it is impossible to know what was the temperature in February 1880 in the Southern Pacific Ocean, to take the standard deviation to guess where that year's Earth average temperature falls, equates to making a lot of statistical assumptions, among them that the temperature in the places from which we have data, are uncorrelated to those from which we do not have data, which is actually negate the principle of having global temperature forcing. The only thing that we can say is that we don't know. But lets make a concession and assume that we do know, that we can take this analysis as it is, and lets make another concession and forget of the statistical errors on the monthly averages. As God, if there is one, has a sense of humour, the temperatures recorded in 1998 falls withing the error bars of the temperatures recorded at the end of 1880. This with their data at hand. I haven't gone into discussing what reliable that data is, etc. etc.
    So, now, are you interested in the part that says that 'and so what..' because this is irrelevant?
     
    Upvote 0

    Latest Articles

    Join UK Business Forums for free business advice