Was Sweden right after all ?

Justin Smith

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Jun 6, 2012
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Since Covid began London's population is estimated to have dropped by 700,000 (8 per cent of the population)

That's an estimate based on the amount of people from abroad who returned home and the people who worked and lived in the city have moved out

I doubt it's in the official population figures yet

But you can't compare London now to what it was like at the start of Covid

It's a shadow of its former self

Sorry can I just get this right.
You are now admitting that relative to the rest of the country, London's death figures are lower since the middle of last year but are due to :
1 - So many people having died.
and/or
2 - So many people moving out (like they did in the time of the bubonic plague) ? London now being full not of people but tumbleweed ?
 
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jpjj

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Jan 4, 2021
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Sorry can I just get this right.
You are now admitting that relative to the rest of the country, London's death figures are lower since the middle of last year but are due to :
1 - So many people having died.
and/or
2 - So many people moving out (like they did in the time of the bubonic plague) ? London now being full not of people but tumbleweed ?

The peak daily rate is lower but the number of deaths in the second wave is higher.

From ONS, Covid deaths for London to 4 Sept = 8,613, and to 26 Feb = 18,477

In London, more people have died in the second wave than the first wave.
 
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I

Interestedobserver

Sorry can I just get this right.
You are now admitting that relative to the rest of the country, London's death figures are lower since the middle of last year but are due to :
1 - So many people having died.
and/or
2 - So many people moving out (like they did in the time of the bubonic plague) ? London now being full not of people but tumbleweed ?

No I'm giving a reply to why deaths may have reduced in London. People have left London in hundreds of thousands

I've no idea if that's the answer but it might explain anything you are looking at

I've not even looked at your graphs. But above it seems someone else is telling you that you are wrong regardless

Either way London is not the busy city it used to be

You must understand that?

People have moved out either to the suburbs to the countryside or back home to their families

London not exactly the same exciting place to be in a lockdown is it?
 
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I

Interestedobserver

They're doing better than 23 of 30 European countries and they didn't even ruin their economy to do it.

Here we go again. You guys imagine stuff without looking at what actually happened.

"HomeFinance Locking Down, or Keeping the Economy Open? A Comparison of Two COVID-19 Strategies
Finance
LOCKING DOWN, OR KEEPING THE ECONOMY OPEN? A COMPARISON OF TWO COVID-19 STRATEGIES
December 17, 2020

Of course, one would expect a higher mortality rate when the objective is to keep business open and minimise the impact on the economy. But even on the economic front, Sweden has not performed well. Its gross domestic product (GDP) shrank by 8.3 percent in the three months to June 2020, compared with contractions of 5.1 percent for Norway, 4.5 percent for Finland and 6.8 percent for Denmark. As Gabriel Scally, a professor of public health at the University of Bristol, asserted in September, there is simply too much praise being given to the Swedish model. “We believe it is ineffective. Sweden has had an enormous amount of deaths per head of population, 5,880 deaths representing 581 deaths per million population. Compared with its neighbours it has been unsuccessful in preventing deaths—Finland, for example, has had 343 deaths, which equals 62 deaths per million population.” Scally also took the opportunity to dispel the myth that Sweden had not imposed any restrictions to curb the spread of COVID-19. “There is little to suggest that Sweden’s strategy is better than its Nordic neighbours (particularly Norway and Finland), and a lot to suggest that it is worse, with a much larger burden of disease over spring and summer.”
 
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I

Interestedobserver

The New Statesman:

Sweden’s Covid-19 failures have exposed the myths of the lockdown-sceptics
The “herd immunity” strategy that led to a disastrous Swedish death rate would have been even more dangerous in the UK.


Many strange things happened in 2020, but one of the strangest was the romance between Britain’s Covid-sceptics and Sweden. It turned out to be an ill-fated one, ending in tragedy, but it was intense while it lasted.

For much of this year, those who object to measures to control the virus have hailed Sweden as a libertarian paradise, supposedly showing us how Covid-19 could be kept under control without intrusive government restrictions.

Of late, these champions have fallen silent. It’s not hard to explain why. Recent days have seen Sweden’s Nordic neighbours Finland and Norway offering emergency medical assistance as Stockholm’s hospitals have been overwhelmed, infections and deaths have spiked dramatically upward, and the King of Sweden has made an unprecedented criticism of the government’s bungled strategy.

Unprecedented, but hardly surprising: Sweden has suffered a death rate that is roughly ten times that of neighbouring Norway and nine times that of Finland. A searing government report concluded the state had failed to protect the vulnerable. Mats Persson, a former UK government adviser, said of his home country: “For a social model largely designed around the state levelling the odds and caring for the vulnerable, this will leave a very difficult moral legacy.”

Sweden was praised to the skies by Covid-sceptics. In May, Sherelle Jacobs wrote in the Daily Telegraph that “the more time goes on, the more Sweden looks like a success story… Sweden is in a much stronger long-term position than lockdown countries.” Meanwhile, Christopher Snowdon of the Institute of Economic Affairs told us that Sweden had demonstrated “a more sensible way to balance risk, liberty and the economy”.

[See also: How Sweden is being forced to abandon its failing Covid-19 strategy]

To understand the magnitude of what’s gone wrong, it’s worth noting that Sweden started the pandemic with several huge advantages. First, it’s a far less urban nation than the UK,for example, and the virus spreads much more rapidly in dense, built-up areas. While the UK has 273 people per square kilometre, Sweden has just 25.

Second, Sweden has the highest rate of people living alone in the world: 42.5 per cent of households are single people, compared to just 29.9 per cent in the UK. Obviously, it’s much easier for the virus to spread within the home, and places with large, multigenerational households suffer most.

To form an idea of the consequences that would have followed if the UK had followed the Swedish model, you would need to compare Sweden’s outcomes to its similar neighbours. Given the country’s death rate is ten times higher, imagine the chaos we’d have seen if we had multiplied the UK death rate by a factor of ten.

Nor has there been an economic upside for Sweden: in fact, they saw a bigger hit to their economy than their neighbours, as well as much worse health outcomes. The Swedish virologist Lena Einhorn concluded: “Sweden’s strategy has proven to be a dramatic failure.”

This matters, not only because health and lives are in danger, but also because the Swedish experiment reveals the failures of the underlying theories of Covid-sceptics.

Sweden’s controversial state epidemiologist Anders Tegnell predicted in the summer that because the country had a high rate of infection in the spring, it would have “a high level of immunity and the number of cases [in the winter] will probably be quite low”.

We now know he was disastrously wrong. But he wasn’t alone; his theory was exactly the same as that still relied upon by the UK’s Covid-sceptics.

[See also: Sweden’s chief epidemiologist Anders Tegnell defends his strategy]

Sunetra Gupta, a lead author of the “Great Barrington Declaration”, promised in May that, in the UK, “the epidemic has largely come and is on its way out in this country… due to the build-up of immunity”. One leading Covid-sceptic, Michael Yeadon, wrote that thanks to “prior immunity”, “the pandemic is effectively over.”

It’s these same failed theories that still lead Covid-sceptics to argue it is safe to let the virus rip and attempt to shelter the old and vulnerable.

One baffling feature of 2020 was that so much energy was wasted puffing up Sweden, while countries such as Australia, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and New Zealand revealed to us genuinely successful models based on hard suppression of the virus with decisive action: all suffered a fraction of the European average rate of coronavirus cases.

There is, of course, no scope for triumphalism here. But when we look for models to learn from, it isn’t Swedish lessons we need. The better lesson is the simpler one, taught by our antipodean cousins: wallop the virus as hard as you can.
 
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I

Interestedobserver

It’s too easy lol - I gave it a hour before you would bite and I was right lol. Like a few posts back I don’t think it’s healthy for you this subject and you need to rest from this forum for a while.

Hey I’ve heard Stockholm is alive and kicking at the mo, get yourself over.

Ostrich.

Lol it's bound to be easy when you post BS

As for Stockholm - it's not the place to head right now unless you want new lockdowns and and join in the civil unrest on the streets of course.

Their leaders had confidently predicted they wouldn't face a second wave like the rest of Europe due to herd immunity. They are just embarking on their third wave. Will need Finland and Norway to bail them out again with hospital beds soon!

Stockholm Endures 100% Spike in Covid Cases as Third Wave Hits
By
Charles Daly
and
Niclas Rolander
3 March 2021, 07:16 GMTUpdated on 3 March 2021, 10:40 GMT
 
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Justin Smith

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LOCKING DOWN, OR KEEPING THE ECONOMY OPEN? A COMPARISON OF TWO COVID-19 STRATEGIES
December 17, 2020
Sweden has had an enormous amount of deaths per head of population, 5,880 deaths representing 581 deaths per million population. Compared with its neighbours it has been unsuccessful in preventing deaths—Finland, for example, has had 343 deaths, which equals 62 deaths per million population.” Scally also took the opportunity to dispel the myth that Sweden had not imposed any restrictions to curb the spread of COVID-19. “There is little to suggest that Sweden’s strategy is better than its Nordic neighbours (particularly Norway and Finland), and a lot to suggest that it is worse, with a much larger burden of disease over spring and summer.”

On the 17th Dec "the date of that article) the UK's death rate per million was 1000.
Up to press Sweden's is 1290 per million and the UK's 1835.

According to Statista Sweden's GDP growth for 2020 was minus 1.7%
and for the UK minus 9.9%
https://www.statista.com/statistics/529846/sweden-gross-domestic-product-gdp-growth-rate/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/281734/gdp-growth-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/

And living in Sweden will have been a darn sight more pleasant than living in the UK.
Does that not count for anything ?
Not amongst the suppression apologists it doesn't.


So your point is ?
 
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I

Interestedobserver

On the 17th Dec the date of that article) the UK's death rate per million was 1000.

According to Statista Sweden's GDP growth for 2020 was minus 1.7%
and for the UK minus 9.9%
https://www.statista.com/statistics/529846/sweden-gross-domestic-product-gdp-growth-rate/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/281734/gdp-growth-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/

And living in Sweden will have been a darn sight more pleasant than living in the UK.


So your point is ?

My point is:

Sweden categorically failed with attempting herd immunity and are in the process of now having to add lockdowns as we remove them

They've failed. They also have less than 1 in 3 of their population believing their government has done a good job with Covid. Meanwhile in the UK our population are supporting our Govt more than ever with what they are doing.

Their King accepted they had failed at Xmas and slammed their own approach.

Their leaders are warning of difficult times ahead.

Sweden's approach failed.

Their same president who criticised the "draconian measures" of lockdown across the rest of europe (a phrase you've used yourself all the time ever since) is now having to copy all the measures we had to bring to get through the next few weeks/months at the same time we start removing those measures

Sweden wasnt right after all.

Can you be a nice chap do us all a quick favour and go in and edit the thread title ?

Change it to something like

"Herd Immunity Clowns"
 
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Its a bit like groundhog day. The known facts have moved on, but the arguments just keep being repeated.

If Sweden's approach failed one assumes the UK's approach was a lot better.

Why then does Sweden have such a good comparative record in Europe when it comes to deaths from covid.

Worldometers isn't perfect, but it does allow looking at countries in order of the number of deaths from Covid per million people:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Lockdown countries
Czech Republic 2,088
Belgium 1,921
Slovenia 1,880
UK 1,835

No lockdown
Sweden 1,290


In the end it will be possible to do a reasonably rigorous comparison of countries as well as different US states.

I am, however, not really inclined to participate in online discussions of this as people have their viewpoints as matters of faith where current facts don't matter. Hence don't be surprised if I don't respond.
 
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I

Interestedobserver

Its a bit like groundhog day. The known facts have moved on, but the arguments just keep being repeated.

If Sweden's approach failed one assumes the UK's approach was a lot better.

Why then does Sweden have such a good comparative record in Europe when it comes to deaths from covid.

Worldometers isn't perfect, but it does allow looking at countries in order of the number of deaths from Covid per million people:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Lockdown countries
Czech Republic 2,088
Belgium 1,921
Slovenia 1,880
UK 1,835

No lockdown
Sweden 1,290


In the end it will be possible to do a reasonably rigorous comparison of countries as well as different US states.

I am, however, not really inclined to participate in online discussions of this as people have their viewpoints as matters of faith where current facts don't matter. Hence don't be surprised if I don't respond.

Honestly why didn't you choose the countries nearest to Sweden?

Their neighbours?

Be honest why didn't you choose them?

We are nothing like Sweden to compare to them.

It's like comparing apples to pears.

We both know why you didn't choose them.

You lose credibility again John?

Why didn't Sweden get anywhere near to the herd immunity we were all promised?

Why are they going into lockdowns at this late stage?

Nobody is championing Sweden any more. Apart from perhaps on here?

Stop hanging on to something that clearly failed miserably.
 
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Forgot password

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Why is this subject so important to you? It’s like the hill your prepared to die on. Feels like regardless of anyone else’s opinion you have to get the lady word on this, it’s like your some sort of control freak.

We hear your funny views on Sweden so why not just drop it have a beer and relax? What’s the fixation?
 
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Justin Smith

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My point is:
Sweden categorically failed with attempting herd immunity and are in the process of now having to add lockdowns as we remove them
They've failed. They also have less than 1 in 3 of their population believing their government has done a good job with Covid. Meanwhile in the UK our population are supporting our Govt more than ever with what they are doing.
Their King accepted they had failed at Xmas and slammed their own approach.
Their leaders are warning of difficult times ahead.
Sweden's approach failed.
Their same president who criticised the "draconian measures" of lockdown across the rest of europe (a phrase you've used yourself all the time ever since) is now having to copy all the measures we had to bring to get through the next few weeks/months at the same time we start removing those measures
Sweden wasnt right after all.
Can you be a nice chap do us all a quick favour and go in and edit the thread title ?
Change it to something like
"Herd Immunity Clowns"

The fact is it might take years to know for sure whether Sweden was right, but I note you have not commented on my post nor its implied questions :

On the 17th Dec (the date of that article) the UK's death rate per million was 1000 [as against Sweden's 581 per million].
Up to press Sweden's is 1290 per million and the UK's 1835.
According to Statista Sweden's GDP growth for 2020 was minus 1.7%
and for the UK minus 9.9%
https://www.statista.com/statistics/529846/sweden-gross-domestic-product-gdp-growth-rate/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/281734/gdp-growth-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/
And living in Sweden will have been a darn sight more pleasant than living in the UK.
Does that not count for anything ?

Even now it is arguable if Sweden were right, it comes back to the recurring question :
Risk (of an earlier or weaker lockdown) v Benefit (of less damage to society).

That said, it may well come out in the years to come that Sweden really were right as, at the moment, nobody actually knows how many lives have been saved by all this awful suppression.
 
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Justin Smith

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Can you be a nice chap do us all a quick favour and go in and edit the thread title ?
Change it to something lik
"Herd Immunity Clowns"

If London was no nearer to herd immunity than the rest of the UK, why did it have a significantly lower death rate during the winter flu season Covid wave ? Especially as it was at the epicentre of the "more infectious Kent variant" (October 2020 on) ?
I have asked you this question many times but you have always ignored it as "too awkward".
Latest stats :
UK's death rate is 86% less than peak, and London's is 94% below peak.......

London-V-UK-1000W-2-Mar-21-L5.jpg
 
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simon field

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Honestly why didn't you choose the countries nearest to Sweden?

Their neighbours?

Be honest why didn't you choose them?

We are nothing like Sweden to compare to them.

It's like comparing apples to pears.

We both know why you didn't choose them.

You lose credibility again John?

Why didn't Sweden get anywhere near to the herd immunity we were all promised?

Why are they going into lockdowns at this late stage?

Nobody is championing Sweden any more. Apart from perhaps on here?

Stop hanging on to something that clearly failed miserably.

You’re really struggling aren’t you. Take some time off, try to think about something else for a few days.
 
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Forgot password

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He won’t answer awkward or direct questions unfortunately Justin, you called it right on Sweden from the start and you back it up with facts and points. I think it’s obvious to most that Sweden is the perfect model for any future pandemic. My advice is to let history as you say have the last word not a middle aged ‘karen’ trying to win a point even though the facts are staring him in the face.
 
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Aniela

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If London was no nearer to herd immunity than the rest of the UK, why did it have a significantly lower death rate during the winter flu season Covid wave ? Especially as it was at the epicentre of the "more infectious Kent variant" (October 2020 on) ?
I have asked you this question many times but you have always ignored it as "too awkward".
Latest stats :
UK's death rate is 86% less than peak, and London's is 94% below peak.......

London-V-UK-1000W-2-Mar-21-L5.jpg

It's not being answered because your posing an extremely complicated question (but posing it as basic) with meaningless graphs. The graphs don't hold any data that let you come to any sort of conclusion.

There's far to many variables in the question that you're asking that are way above all of our heads to compile.
 
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I

Interestedobserver

The fact is it might take years to know for sure whether Sweden was right, but I note you have not commented on my post nor its implied questions :

On the 17th Dec (the date of that article) the UK's death rate per million was 1000 [as against Sweden's 581 per million].
Up to press Sweden's is 1290 per million and the UK's 1835.
According to Statista Sweden's GDP growth for 2020 was minus 1.7%
and for the UK minus 9.9%
https://www.statista.com/statistics/529846/sweden-gross-domestic-product-gdp-growth-rate/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/281734/gdp-growth-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/
And living in Sweden will have been a darn sight more pleasant than living in the UK.
Does that not count for anything ?

Even now it is arguable if Sweden were right, it comes back to the recurring question :
Risk (of an earlier or weaker lockdown) v Benefit (of less damage to society).

That said, it may well come out in the years to come that Sweden really were right as, at the moment, nobody actually knows how many lives have been saved by all this awful suppression.

You don't judge Covid by other people's deaths though Justin?

You judge it by the impact on you personally?

You've never hidden that?

You wanted to copy Sweden because you wanted us to copy them?

How many people died was not on your agenda and never has been
 
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MikeJ

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He won’t answer awkward or direct questions unfortunately Justin, you called it right on Sweden from the start and you back it up with facts and points. I think it’s obvious to most that Sweden is the perfect model for any future pandemic. My advice is to let history as you say have the last word not a middle aged ‘karen’ trying to win a point even though the facts are staring him in the face.

Sweden has ten times the death rate from Covid than Norway. Norway locked down. Sweden didn't. It's far higher than Denmark and Finland too. Compare apples with apples, and suddenly you realise "Karen" knows what she's talking about, because she understands the facts that are staring her in the face.
 
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gpietersz

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    Sweden has ten times the death rate from Covid than Norway. Norway locked down. Sweden didn't. It's far higher than Denmark and Finland too.

    Sweden has a lower death rate than the UK, or France of Belgium. They all locked down, Sweden did not.

    You seem to think countries should only compare with their nearest neighbours, but what great difference is their between the those countries and Western Europe?
     
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    I

    Interestedobserver

    Sweden has a lower death rate than the UK, or France of Belgium. They all locked down, Sweden did not.

    You seem to think countries should only compare with their nearest neighbours, but what great difference is their between the those countries and Western Europe?

    You are more intelligent to compare a country like Sweden to UK or France?

    Seriously?

    Let's not go there
     
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    Justin Smith

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    You don't judge Covid by other people's deaths though Justin?
    You judge it by the impact on you personally?
    You've never hidden that?
    You wanted to copy Sweden because you wanted us to copy them?
    How many people died was not on your agenda and never has been

    But you (nor any of the suppression apologists on here) still haven't answered the question. How can Sweden have failed when (and all three of these are equally important) :

    1 - Their death rate is substantially below ours deaths per million (1290 v 1835).

    2 - Their economy has not suffered anywhere near as much as ours (GDP minus 1.7% v minus 9.9%, and that will, kill people, or, at the very minimum, shorten their lives, which is, err, what Covid does)

    3 - It will have been far more pleasant living in Sweden than socially and economically suppressed Britain for (even if we do get back to normal in June) well over a year.
     
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    MikeJ

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    Sweden has a lower death rate than the UK, or France of Belgium. They all locked down, Sweden did not.

    You seem to think countries should only compare with their nearest neighbours, but what great difference is their between the those countries and Western Europe?

    Environment. Climate. Population density. Genetics.

    How can you ignore the comparison between their nearest neighbours, but compare them to a country much further away?
     
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    Aniela

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    Environment. Climate. Population density. Genetics.

    How can you ignore the comparison between their nearest neighbours, but compare them to a country much further away?

    Justin will never have the ability to understand things can't be directly compared on a top-level basis like he does. His idea of the world is too simplistic and not based in reality.

    He would say a Ford Focus and a Ferrari are comparable because they both have 4 wheels and steering wheel.
     
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    Aniela

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    But you (nor any of the suppression apologists on here) still haven't answered the question. How can Sweden have failed when (and all three of these are equally important) :

    1 - Their death rate is substantially below ours deaths per million (1290 v 1835).

    2 - Their economy has not suffered anywhere near as much as ours (GDP minus 1.7% v minus 9.9%, and that will, kill people, or, at the very minimum, shorten their lives, which is, err, what Covid does)

    3 - It will have been far more pleasant living in Sweden than socially and economically suppressed Britain for (even if we do get back to normal in June) well over a year.

    To come to the conclusion that Sweden made the right choices, what variables did you take into consideration? (Ages, density etc.)

    Or did you purely just go deaths vs deaths per million? (Which isn't a valid comparison)

    Not sure why I'm asking as it's obvious you're making invalid assumptions AGAIN.
     
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    I

    Interestedobserver

    Environment. Climate. Population density. Genetics.

    How can you ignore the comparison between their nearest neighbours, but compare them to a country much further away?

    Almost 40 per cent of the homes in Sweden are lived in by one person

    "The number of households in Sweden has been growing constantly and amounted to approximately 4.7 million in 2019, housing 10.33 million inhabitants. Most of the households in Sweden in 2018 were single-person households without children This category amounted to around 1.8 million"

    It's hard for them to even need the rule of 6 !!!
     
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    Justin Smith

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    Almost 40 per cent of the homes in Sweden are lived in by one person
    "The number of households in Sweden has been growing constantly and amounted to approximately 4.7 million in 2019, housing 10.33 million inhabitants. Most of the households in Sweden in 2018 were single-person households without children This category amounted to around 1.8 million"
    It's hard for them to even need the rule of 6 !!!

    Right OK, so you're saying that Sweden has been social distancing all through this, including whilst the virus was first building up back in March.
    So, if social distancing etc is so effective, why did they ever have so many deaths ?
    And why is the shape of their death rate curves almost the same as ours (albeit lower.....) ?
    You line 'em up, and I'll knock 'em down.

    Sweden-v-UK-death-rates-to-17-Feb-21-a-800W-L5.png
     
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    Justin Smith

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    Right OK, so you're saying that Sweden has been social distancing all through this, including whilst the virus was first building up back in March.
    So, if social distancing etc is so effective, why did they ever have so many deaths ?
    And why is the shape of their death rate curves almost the same as ours (albeit lower.....) ?
    You line 'em up, and I'll knock 'em down.

    Sweden-v-UK-death-rates-to-17-Feb-21-a-800W-L5.png
    I note IO (or any of the other suppression apologists) have not answered this point yet......
     
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    I

    Interestedobserver

    I note IO (or any of the other suppression apologists) have not answered this point yet......

    Honestly I do try and avoid getting into debate with you

    As I consider you ignorant tbh

    Unintentionally ignorant in your case. You aren't smart enough to do it on purpose!

    And I don't have the energy

    Basically Sweden's herd immunity strategy failed. They even accept that themselves!

    So why are you trying to defend a strategy that even they admitted didn't work and they had to shelve?

    And why are you now defending a country that's now bringing in the suppression measures you so detest?

    Rather than celebrating being in a country that has a plan in place to remove suppression measures?

    I'm confused?

    Make your mind up what kind of country you want to live in?

    They failed to successfully do what you have advocated for 12 months

    And now they have to suppress. Something you hate?

    The only country that tried to do what you wanted - failed and now has to suppress - albeit reluctantly

    You can't defend a policy that even they have accepted doesnt work and they don't do any more?

    Get real?

    Surely you have learnt from what didn't work for them. And they had so many advantages as well.
     
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    jpjj

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    Honestly I do try and avoid getting into debate with you

    As I consider you ignorant tbh

    Unintentionally ignorant in your case.

    And I don't have the energy

    Basically Sweden's herd immunity strategy failed. They even accept that themselves!

    So why are you trying to defend a strategy that even they admitted didn't work and they had to shelve?

    And why are you now defending a country that's now bringing in the suppression measures you so detest?

    Rather than celebrating being in a country that has a plan in place to remove suppression measures?

    I'm confused?

    Make your mind up what kind of country you want to live in?

    They failed to successfully do what you have advocated for 12 months

    And now they have to suppress. Something you hate?

    Alongside not wanting to wear a mask, Justin wants to go on his holidays and to have been right all along. Is that too much to ask?
     
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    Aniela

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    Right OK, so you're saying that Sweden has been social distancing all through this, including whilst the virus was first building up back in March.
    So, if social distancing etc is so effective, why did they ever have so many deaths ?
    And why is the shape of their death rate curves almost the same as ours (albeit lower.....) ?
    You line 'em up, and I'll knock 'em down.

    Sweden-v-UK-death-rates-to-17-Feb-21-a-800W-L5.png

    But you could argue that the graph you've given shows the social distancing that Sweden follow DID work?

    How are you only jumping to one conclusion and not the other? That doesn't make sense.
     
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    I

    Interestedobserver

    The funny thing is I genuinely believe Justin fully believes every word he says

    It's clearly not an act

    He's convinced himself everything he believes is correct

    So even when a country gives up on a herd immunity experiment he convinces himself it actually worked because he's so bought into wanting it to work and so committed to it

    He creates his own reality
     
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    Aniela

    Free Member
    Mar 28, 2020
    932
    143
    The funny thing is I genuinely believe Justin fully believes every word he says

    It's clearly not an act

    He's convinced himself everything he believes is correct

    So even when a country gives up on a herd immunity experiment he convinces himself it actually worked because he's so bought into wanting it to work and so committed to it

    He creates his own reality

    He really does.

    It does appear from his other posts there is likely an underlying cause, as he talks/acts like people who have suffered trauma in their life do; from my experience anyway.

    They can not see past the truth and always think there's 'something' everyone else is missing, except for them. That's despite being proven wrong time and time again. They can't see that.

    It's very annoying for everyone else, but it's rather fascinating at the same time.
     
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    Justin Smith

    Free Member
    Jun 6, 2012
    2,744
    398
    Sheffield
    Don't tell me you still believe the T Cell and Herd Immunity BS these guys were spouting?
    I will take it back. Their graphs aren't even as good as yours Justin?

    You are right, my graph proving that either London does have significantly more immunity (to Covid) than the rest of the UK, or the "Kent strain" was just a massive over egged omlete.
    Which is it ?
    Latest data :
    Death rates (7 day av, most recent date with all data in = 9 March) :
    UK is down 89.8% from peak, or at 10.2% of peak level.
    London is down 96.7% from peak, or at 3.3% of peak level, i.e. one third of that for that for the UK as a whole.

    London-V-UK-1000W-2-Mar-21-L5.jpg


    So yes, maybe Sweden were right after all ? Ask yourself this, what would have happened if vaccines hadn't come along ? And most experts were pretty pessimistic right up to about October......
     
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