Was Sweden right after all ?

[Aniela]

In Europe, Sweden continues to set the example with a zero lockdown strategy. Sweden has clearly evaded COVID deaths far better than its peers. But, you can bet your bottom dollar that the media will make NO MENTION of Sweden's success!

You’ve been bang on with this from the start J.

You do understand that while Sweden didn't have a forced lockdown strategy, the residents lived for the most part like they did?

The zero lockdown strategy that you talk about isn't really accurate. The government didn't have a forced lockdown strategy, but that doesn't mean restrictions and lockdown-esque behaviour wasn't happening... as it did.

I appreciate that you appear to be like Justin, someone that doesn't look into facts.

Even I'm turning into a conspiracy theorist now. Thinking that you, Justin and Simon are either the same person, or part of something together. You're all too similar with the odd views on things.

 

[Forgot password]

You do understand that while Sweden didn't have a forced lockdown strategy, the residents lived for the most part like they did?

The zero lockdown strategy that you talk about isn't really accurate. The government didn't have a forced lockdown strategy, but that doesn't mean restrictions and lockdown-esque behaviour wasn't happening... as it did.

I appreciate that you appear to be like Justin, someone that doesn't look into facts.

Even I'm turning into a conspiracy theorist now. Thinking that you, Justin and Simon are either the same person, or part of something together. You're all too similar with the odd views on things.

Why do you end every single one of your posts with a dig to the ribs of that particular poster? Shows your real colours. That my friend is odd.

 

[Aniela]

Why do you end every single one of your posts with a dig to the ribs of that particular poster? Shows your real colours. That my friend is odd.

Because you were discussing him at the end of your post.

 

[Justin Smith]

Proof suppression and "test and trace" was never going to work against Covid ?

Vaccinations : up to 26.3 million, basically nearly all those at significant risk from Covid have been jabbed.
Hospitalisations : down by 83% since peak.
Deaths (weekly average to 11 Mar, they'll be much lower now) : down by 91.7%, except for London (the epicentre of the Kent strain), their death rate is down by 97.2%. Think about it, London's death rate is only 2.8% of what it was !
Now, I believe there are people that think these very encouraging figures are due to suppression and "test and trace" as much as the vaccine, and that is why we must remain supressed.
Apparently France is about to re-enter lockdown, and Germany's cases are going up again.
Both these countries have vaccinated far fewer of their population than us, and Germany has a much vaunted "test and trace" often cited by people as "how we should have beaten Covid".
QED ?

 

[Interestedobserver]

Aren't you happy yet?

 

[Alan]

Not exactly an outstanding success with Sweden at 86,000 deaths ( adjusted for population ) versus UK 126,000 deaths. And Sweden is twice the area of GB so an average population density on one thirteenth.

 

[Justin Smith]

Not exactly an outstanding success with Sweden at 86,000 deaths ( adjusted for population ) versus UK 126,000 deaths. And Sweden is twice the area of GB so an average population density on one thirteenth.

Breakdown in communication alert.....
Nobody is saying it is an outstanding success.
Nobody is going to have an outstanding success with Covid.
The question is who is going to manage the balance between limiting bad health outcomes with bad outcomes for society and the economy.
On the figures I was checking the other day, Sweden's economy had dropped about 2% last year, and the UK's about 10%, and Sweden has undoubtedly been a more pleasant place to live for the last year. Sweden's death rate may have been worse then its Nordic neighbours (though all of them have populations around half Sweden's size), but it has provably been better than ours.

 

[Interestedobserver]

Breakdown in communication alert.....
Nobody is saying it is an outstanding success.
Nobody is going to have an outstanding success with Covid.
The question is who is going to manage the balance between limiting bad health outcomes with bad outcomes for society and the economy.
On the figures I was checking the other day, Sweden's economy had dropped about 2% last year, and the UK's about 10%, and Sweden has undoubtedly been a more pleasant place to live for the last year. Sweden's death rate may have been worse then its Nordic neighbours (though all of them have populations around half Sweden's size), but it has provably been better than ours.

But Sweden getting worse now whilst we get better

And most importantly we had to face a far more serious variant and Sweden and rest of Europe only now are finding out how tough the UK variant is in comparsion

You do the research Justin

And then confirm I'm right?

Sweden and Europe cannot cope with the UK variant.

We had the much harder challenge.

 

[Justin Smith]

But Sweden getting worse now whilst we get better
And most importantly we had to face a far more serious variant and Sweden and rest of Europe only now are finding out how tough the UK variant is in comparsion
You do the research Justin
And then confirm I'm right?
Sweden and Europe cannot cope with the UK variant.
We had the much harder challenge.

Two points.
1 - Sweden has a vaccination rate of of about 12.5% (ours is around 40%) so you should be comparing Sweden with Germany, and they are doing fine compared with Germany :
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56460696
Covid: Germany [with their much vaunted T&T system which was, apparently, the key to beating Covid.....] warns of 'exponential' rise in coronavirus cases

2 - Are we talking about the much more infectious and worrying Kent variant ?
The one which had an epicentre of, err, London ?
The UK's death rate from Covid is down to about 8.3% of its peak which is very good, but London's death rate is down to 2.8%.

More graphically :

 

[Interestedobserver]

Just to confirm you do agree from all of your research that we have had to face a much tougher variant than Sweden and the rest of Europe til now?

Simple yes or no without any graphs Justin?

 

[Forgot password]

Another round to Justin. Judges have it 7-3 at the moment with odds on a knockout soon.

Yeah Justin why don’t you take his advice and err not post factual graphs,

 

[Interestedobserver]

Another round to Justin. Judges have it 7-3 at the moment with odds on a knockout soon.

Yeah Justin why don’t you take his advice and err not post factual graphs,

Lol

If I'm losing fights to Justin its definitely time to hang the gloves up!

 

[Forgot password]

Lol

If I'm losing fights to Justin its definitely time to hang the gloves up!

Yes your correct so please hang them up and walk away with dignity.

 

[Justin Smith]

Just to confirm you do agree from all of your research that we have had to face a much tougher variant than Sweden and the rest of Europe til now?
Simple yes or no without any graphs Justin?

No I do not agree. and what happened in London proves it.
Incidentally the latest stats also prove it. The UK death rate has dropped to only 7.9% of its peak level, except London. London, the epicentre of the "worrying Kent variant" is down to only 2.6% of its peak level.

 

[Aniela]

No I do not agree. and what happened in London proves it.
Incidentally the latest stats also prove it. The UK death rate has dropped to only 7.9% of its peak level, except London. London, the epicentre of the "worrying Kent variant" is down to only 2.6% of its peak level.

So we successfully stopped the Kent variant from spreading. Job well done then, I say.

 

[MikeJ]

Exactly. Justin has posted the same graph around 10 times now, which most sites would consider trolling.

Here's what happened. The "Kent" variant appeared, spread through London and caused deaths to peak. The government noticed what was happening, and locked down to prevent the spread. The lockdown reduced deaths to "background" levels, but because London had been hit harder it had much further to fall than the rest of the UK.

Thanks Justin for posting that information so many times to prove the point that the Kent variant is so dangerous.

 

[Clodbuster]

I can see what Justin is on about but it all depends if you are an optimist or not - on one side the issue is not going to affect you and bad luck if it gets out of hand.
Alternatively take the cautious route and prevent any possibility of the issue escalating, unfortunately for him and the muppet protestors the majority (by all accounts) are in the second option so I feel he should suck it up and toe the line or form his own political party and make a challenge.
Personally I'm in the second option. (I admit I've changed my views as I WAS in the first originally)

 

[Justin Smith]

Exactly. Justin has posted the same graph around 10 times now, which most sites would consider trolling.

Here's what happened. The "Kent" variant appeared, spread through London and caused deaths to peak. The government noticed what was happening, and locked down to prevent the spread. The lockdown reduced deaths to "background" levels, but because London had been hit harder it had much further to fall than the rest of the UK.

Thanks Justin for posting that information so many times to prove the point that the Kent variant is so dangerous.

Justin has posted the same graph around 10 times now, which most sites would consider trolling.

People who didn't like facts contradicting them might.....
I might just as well say, and with greater justification, people banging on about "nobody will be safe till everyone is safe" (which, in various different ways is what so many suppression apologists keep saying because not only do they keep repeating the same thing, but it's patently untrue anyway.

because London had been hit harder
Now then, I will resist the temptation to put that graph on again, but, had you bothered studying it, you will have seen that London's death rate from the much vaunted "Kent variant" was LOWER than back in April, whilst that of the rest of the UK was HIGHER.
That's whole point of the graph.
Or, put into numbers,
April peak relative to the "Kent variant peak" :
UK = PLUS 32%
London = MINUS 6%

 

[Aniela]

Justin has posted the same graph around 10 times now, which most sites would consider trolling.

People who didn't like facts contradicting them might.....
I might just as well say, and with greater justification, people banging on about "nobody will be safe till everyone is safe" (which, in various different ways is what so many suppression apologists keep saying because not only do they keep repeating the same thing, but it's patently untrue anyway.

because London had been hit harder
Now then, I will resist the temptation to put that graph on again, but, had you bothered studying it, you will have seen that London's death rate from the much vaunted "Kent variant" was LOWER than back in April, whilst that of the rest of the UK was HIGHER.
That's whole point of the graph.
Or, put into numbers,
April peak relative to the "Kent variant peak" :
UK = PLUS 32%
London = MINUS 6%

No one is saying "nobody will be safe till everyone is safe" are they?

We're starting a lockdown removal process which will ultimately mean not everyone is safe. Wales has already started theirs. There will people that die because of those removal processes and the government knows that.

There seems to be a common thread here. What you say and what's actually happening in the real word, are two different things.

 

[Interestedobserver]

I just read the urban dictionary definition and had to nod my head all the way through. You pretty much tick every box Justin. What do you think? Is that a fair definition?

Drama Queen
''Definition of a drama queen:

<<
Mod : Removed definition;
This isn't keeping with the supportive business nature by which I'd like these forums to carry on please;

^^ Ozzy
>>

 

[MikeJ]

Now then, I will resist the temptation to put that graph on again, but, had you bothered studying it, you will have seen that London's death rate from the much vaunted "Kent variant" was LOWER than back in April, whilst that of the rest of the UK was HIGHER.
That's whole point of the graph.
Or, put into numbers,
April peak relative to the "Kent variant peak" :
UK = PLUS 32%
London = MINUS 6%

I wonder why you constantly refer to London as being the epicentre of the Kent variant, rather than the south east? Is it because the deaths due to the second peak were around 2.5 times that of the first peak, and don't fit your narrative?

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths?areaType=region&areaName=South East

 

[MikeJ]

Kent's not in London, btw. And London isn't in Kent.

 

[Forgot password]

Interested Observer come on mate your last post to Justin really was not called for. You need to grow up.

Just don’t engage with him if you don’t like what he says. Your coming across as the playground bully. Pathetic mate.

 

[Aniela]

Interested Observer come on mate your last post to Justin really was not called for. You need to grow up.

Just don’t engage with him if you don’t like what he says. Your coming across as the playground bully. Pathetic mate.

You seem very fond and protective of Justin. Do you know him or something?

 

[Interestedobserver]

Interested Observer come on mate your last post to Justin really was not called for. You need to grow up.

Just don’t engage with him if you don’t like what he says. Your coming across as the playground bully. Pathetic mate.

He's a drama queen

IMO

I've told him that many times

I don't think he will even deny it himself?

 

[Forgot password]

You seem very fond and protective of Justin. Do you know him or something?

What does it matter if I did? Who are you?

I don’t know him as it happens I just see a witch hunt against him. Bear in mind he has never personally attacked anyone on here yet you and others seem to revel in attacking him and bullying him. What if he tops himself? Consider his and others mental health and remember he is a real person and not a object of your hatred and spite.

So easy - don’t like what he says just don’t engage, why does his views bother you so much and regardless he has a right to express them or don’t you agree with that chain of thought. Gutless bullies.

 

[Interestedobserver]

Now having re-read the definition I copied and posted above I would like to delete some of it but it won't let me edit it

So let's just stick to me saying to Justin he's being a drama queen and ignore the definition

I think he is. And I've told him that many times before.

He's always looking for stuff to complain about - half of which hasn't even happened yet

 

[Forgot password]

Yes

Now having re-read the definition above I would like to retract some of it but it won't let me edit it

So let's just stick to me saying to Justin he's being a drama queen and ignore the definition

I think he is. And I've told him many times before.

He's looking for stuff to complain about - half of which hasn't even happened yet

Yes but mate c’mon going online to cut and paste the dictionaries definition of drama queen and posting it on here for all to see is a bit wrong and spiteful wouldn’t you agree. You don’t know him or how he feels inside or how he is dealing with this unimaginable situation we all find ourselves in. It’s 100% uncalled for and it’s bullying without a doubt, he doesn’t even fight you back which makes it all the worse. Show your wife your post see what she thinks. It’s been a prolonged sustained attack on a easy target which doesn’t sit right with me. I have reported you to the mods but whether they take action is another matter.

I have followed you for a long time and in general you appear to be very rounded and switched on with logical reasonable we’ll thought out views and bring a lot to the forum but this obsession with beating Justin to a pulp is just ugly to witness.

 

[Interestedobserver]

Yes



Yes but mate c’mon going online to cut and paste the dictionaries definition of drama queen and posting it on here for all to see is a bit wrong and spiteful wouldn’t you agree. You don’t know him or how he feels inside or how he is dealing with this unimaginable situation we all find ourselves in. It’s 100% uncalled for and it’s bullying without a doubt, he doesn’t even fight you back which makes it all the worse. Show your wife your post see what she thinks. It’s been a prolonged sustained attack on a easy target which doesn’t sit right with me. I have reported you to the mods but whether they take action is another matter.

I have followed you for a long time and in general you appear to be very rounded and switched on with logical reasonable we’ll thought out views and bring a lot to the forum but this obsession with beating Justin to a pulp is just ugly to witness.

A prolonged sustained attack by me?

He says something I counter it. Others counter it. Some agree with him as well sometimes. He comes back with more of the same.

As I have also said many times I think this forum is some kind of therapy for Justin

Whatever I say to disagree with him. Whether it's rounded or not (in your opinion) falls on death ears. He's made his mind up what he thinks and he sticks to it.

Now when he calls me and others "suppression apologists" or something like that. And others call us "snowflakes" etc that's ok is it?

In Justin's opinion anyone who isnt anti lockdown is irrational anyway? We're all lunatics!

Hence no doubt why he takes no notice of anything we say and sticks to his opinion as rigid as anyone I've ever known on any forum

If drama queen is the worst he gets called on social media he's done well

I've already said having re-read my post given the choice I would delete some (not all) of the definition as not all of it applies to him I'm sure

I agree bullying is not acceptable on social media so you are right to step in if you believe things cross the line.

 

[Forgot password]

Gotcha, I’m off to bed. Just sleep on it and see how you feel in the morning.

You know it’s all so childish.

Night.

 

[Aniela]

What does it matter if I did? Who are you?

I don’t know him as it happens I just see a witch hunt against him. Bear in mind he has never personally attacked anyone on here yet you and others seem to revel in attacking him and bullying him. What if he tops himself? Consider his and others mental health and remember he is a real person and not a object of your hatred and spite.

So easy - don’t like what he says just don’t engage, why does his views bother you so much and regardless he has a right to express them or don’t you agree with that chain of thought. Gutless bullies.

No-one is attacking him or bullying him.

They're just pointing out the constant flaws in what he says. I personally just call him out for all the lies and misleading information he posts.

If he continuously posts incorrect information, lies and misleading information, what do you expect people to do? Just leave him post it without question?

I'm not sure someone can be considered a bully/attacking someone for saying someone is wrong/lying.

His views bother me personally because his way of thinking is what ends up killing people by spreading false information. If someone told your family that smoking doesn't cause cancer, or that wearing a seatbelt shouldn't be done, as it's just the government trying to steal your freedom, would you allow that to happen?

 

[Forgot password]

No-one is attacking him or bullying him.

They're just pointing out the constant flaws in what he says. I personally just call him out for all the lies and misleading information he posts.

If he continuously posts incorrect information, lies and misleading information, what do you expect people to do? Just leave him post it without question?

I'm not sure someone can be considered a bully/attacking someone for saying someone is wrong/lying.

His views bother me personally because his way of thinking is what ends up killing people by spreading false information. If someone told your family that smoking doesn't cause cancer, or that wearing a seatbelt shouldn't be done, as it's just the government trying to steal your freedom, would you allow that to happen?

Your the worst on here Love as it’s obvious you are a intelligent person with a no doubt high IQ and a very good understanding and perception of how people tick and the psychology of the human brain SO you use that to say very hurtful comments that go deep. It’s called manipulation and you know it.

It’s the worst human trait to have btw. Your probably a psychopath (clinically) and you will know that too.

Right definitely off for my beauty sleep.

Nightie Night

 

[Aniela]

Your the worst on here Love as it’s obvious you are a intelligent person with a no doubt high IQ and a very good understanding and perception of how people tick and the psychology of the human brain SO you use that to say very hurtful comments that go deep. It’s called manipulation and you know it.

It’s the worst human trait to have btw. Your probably a psychopath (clinically) and you will know that too.

Right definitely off for my beauty sleep.

Nightie Night

So your argument is that people need to stop people calling out Justin's false information, because it's bullying and not acceptable and needs to stop.

Then go on to call me a psychopath.

See the major flaw there?

You are 100% Justin, a family member or friend of his. It's rather obvious.

 

[John Hemming]

No-one is attacking him or bullying him.

Calling him a drama queen is obviously a personal attack. It is not a factual analysis of what he says (which I generally agree with). Hence someone on this thread is attacking Justin personally.

 

[Aniela]

Calling him a drama queen is obviously a personal attack. It is not a factual analysis of what he says (which I generally agree with). Hence someone on this thread is attacking Justin personally.

If someone says smoking doesn't cause cancer, and that person gets called stupid, it's not a personal attack.

It's just commenting on how that person is.

That's all that's happening here.

Justin thinks all the scientists etc around the world are wrong and he's right because he doesn't understand basic information.

 

[Justin Smith]

Calling him a drama queen is obviously a personal attack. It is not a factual analysis of what he says (which I generally agree with). Hence someone on this thread is attacking Justin personally.

You know what they say John, people start getting personal when they're losing the argument which they most certainly are now.
TBH I sometimes wonder if IO and MrD really believe what they are saying or they're just trying to wind people up. I cannot believe that anyone, particularly a practical business person, seriously imagines we can keep up this suppression "for years". Nor can they seriously think what is going on now, when over half of the adult population (the vulnerable half......) of this country has been vaccinated, is proportionate. Seriously I cannot see it.

 

[Justin Smith]

Yes
Yes but mate c’mon going online to cut and paste the dictionaries definition of drama queen and posting it on here for all to see is a bit wrong and spiteful wouldn’t you agree. You don’t know him or how he feels inside or how he is dealing with this unimaginable situation we all find ourselves in. It’s 100% uncalled for and it’s bullying without a doubt, he doesn’t even fight you back which makes it all the worse. Show your wife your post see what she thinks. It’s been a prolonged sustained attack on a easy target which doesn’t sit right with me. I have reported you to the mods but whether they take action is another matter.
I have followed you for a long time and in general you appear to be very rounded and switched on with logical reasonable we’ll thought out views and bring a lot to the forum but this obsession with beating Justin to a pulp is just ugly to witness.

It'll take someone with more about them to beat me into a pulp....

 

[John Hemming]

If someone says smoking doesn't cause cancer, and that person gets called stupid, it's not a personal attack.

It's just commenting on how that person is.

That's all that's happening here.

Justin thinks all the scientists etc around the world are wrong and he's right because he doesn't understand basic information.

I think your post summarises why I have decided not to engage in the discussions about the science of Covid-19 on this forum.

Calling someone "stupid" or a "drama queen" is obviously a personal attack because it is an attack on them as an individual.

Similarly the "scientists around the world" have different views as to how to deal with Covid-19.

Now these are incontravertible facts - there is no element of this that can be considered opinion. However, you decide to deny them as being facts. That is why I do not think it is worth engaging in this particular discussion in respect of the facts and science of Covid-19.

 

[Justin Smith]

I wonder why you constantly refer to London as being the epicentre of the Kent variant, rather than the south east? Is it because the deaths due to the second peak were around 2.5 times that of the first peak, and don't fit your narrative?

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths?areaType=region&areaName=South East

Interesting post.
What it indicates is, therefore, is that London must have significantly more resistance to Covid than the rest of the UK including the SE. Which, incidentally, is what me and John Hemming have been saying for months* and having IO and MrD telling us we do not know what we are talking about.

* We have both said London has a much higher natural resistance to Covid because its death rate (a reflection of its infection rate) was so much higher than the rest of the country. This is of less importance now because we have the vaccines, but if we didn't it indicates that herd immunity by infection was/is possible because London was/is quite some way along towards it

 

[jpjj]

Interesting post.
What it indicates is, therefore, is that London must have significantly more resistance to Covid than the rest of the UK including the SE. Which, incidentally, is what me and John Hemming have been saying for months* and having IO and MrD telling us we do not know what we are talking about.

* We have both said London has a much higher natural resistance to Covid because its death rate (a reflection of its infection rate) was so much higher than the rest of the country. This is of less importance now because we have the vaccines, but if we didn't it indicates that herd immunity by infection was/is possible because London was/is quite some way along towards it

According to ONS data, cumulative deaths per 100000 haven't been higher in London than the rest of England since early November. How does that fit with your theories?