Was Sweden right after all ?

[Interestedobserver]

I think Sweden was right with regard to lockdowns, and the UK was right with regard to vaccination.

I do not know how the Swedes managed to control covid fairly typically well for Europe without lockdowns, but they did it.

I think the fair comparator for Sweden is the rest of the EU, not the UK, and on that basis they look like they were right.

Lol - so you are now clearly saying that Sweden has done better than the rest of Europe but not as good as the UK?

We aren't and never were debating Sweden compared to the rest of Europe on here

We were debating compared to the UK?

Get real?

You are starting to talk like a politician and avoid the difficult questions

What are you scared of ?

Is it so hard to admit we are doing way better than the rest of Europe including Sweden

They are very much in the same boat as rest of Europe now having to bring in lockdowns whilst we are removing them

 

[Forgot password]

"Lest we forget..."
Sweden with no lockdown and no masks achieved status of being one of the best performers in Europe for minimising excess mortality. The real metric, the crucial metric.
So no matter the lies, deceit and propaganda that we have suffered, this is the last word.

 

[Interestedobserver]

"Lest we forget..."
Sweden with no lockdown and no masks achieved status of being one of the best performers in Europe for minimising excess mortality. The real metric, the crucial metric.
So no matter the lies, deceit and propaganda that we have suffered, this is the last word.

So you really genuinely do think deaths is the crucial metric do you?

"Sweden has seen over 13,000 deaths in the pandemic, while its Nordic neighbors Denmark, Norway and Finland, who chose to impose coronavirus restrictions much earlier, have a combined COVID-19 death toll of 3,777."

And not only that now Sweden finds itself playing catch up with having to impose lockdowns

Please don't anybody try and claim Sweden was right after all

Joker

 

[Forgot password]

So you really genuinely do think deaths is the crucial metric do you?

"Sweden has seen over 13,000 deaths in the pandemic, while its Nordic neighbors Denmark, Norway and Finland, who chose to impose coronavirus restrictions much earlier, have a combined COVID-19 death toll of 3,777."

And not only that now Sweden finds itself playing catch up with having to impose lockdowns

Please don't anybody try and claim Sweden was right after all

Joker

You will have to accept I am afraid my friend that people will not do what you want them to do or what you ask them even if you say please.


Lack of correlation of NPI measures to Covid19 outcome is universal.

The outcomes in Sweden & Florida are perfect control experiments.

Both deliberately ignored lockdown measures used & promoted by everyone else.

Doom was widely predicted but outcome was better not worse.

Ostrich.

 

[Interestedobserver]

You will have to accept I am afraid my friend that people will not do what you want them to do or what you ask them even if you say please.


Lack of correlation of NPI measures to Covid19 outcome is universal.

The outcomes in Sweden & Florida are perfect control experiments.

Both deliberately ignored lockdown measures used & promoted by everyone else.

Doom was widely predicted but outcome was better not worse.

Ostrich.

Above you made a really strong and very specific statement that "the real matric the crucial metric" (your words not mine) to measure success was minimising excess mortality

They've had more Covid deaths than their 3 nearest neighbours (Finland, Denmark and Norway) added together ?

You are obviously totally confused ?

If you are going to make such bold statements about what success is then at least do some research first. It's very very clearly nor minimising excess mortality for Sweden

Shall we just say they were the very best at not wearing masks in Europe at least they were until recently

Nobody will argue with that

Or have the Swedish Government exaggerated their Covid deaths?

 

[gpietersz]

We aren't and never were debating Sweden compared to the rest of Europe on here. We were debating compared to the UK?

Then why did you say this:

Sweden has seen over 13,000 deaths in the pandemic, while its Nordic neighbors Denmark, Norway and Finland, who chose to impose coronavirus restrictions much earlier, have a combined COVID-19 death toll of 3,777.

Its clearly not relevant, right?

 

[Interestedobserver]

Then why did you say this:



Its clearly not relevant, right?

Lol

Still can't admit what Sweden tried has failed and what we have achieved is way better than where they are now

What's stopping you admitting it?

Justin wanted to go and live there a couple of months ago!

They've even got the civil unrest over there that Justin kept threatening we would get over here due to their lockdown measures and they've barely started with those

 

[gpietersz]

Lol - so you are now clearly saying that Sweden has done better than the rest of Europe but not as good as the UK?

I am clearly not saying that, unless you mean with regard to vaccinations.

You can "prove" anything by cherry picking. Sweden has done better than most comparable countries without resorting to lockdowns.

 

[gpietersz]

What's stopping you admitting it?

The facts. Having a lower death rate without lockdowns proves they were right.

 

[Interestedobserver]

The facts. Having a lower death rate without lockdowns proves they were right.

Lol they had the easy variant. Now they've got the UK one they are locking down left right and centre

And they've now got the highest infection rate in Western europe

They can't handle it

 

[Interestedobserver]

I am clearly not saying that, unless you mean with regard to vaccinations.

You can "prove" anything by cherry picking. Sweden has done better than most comparable countries without resorting to lockdowns.

But right now we have a road map out of lockdown under way

They have one into lockdown?

 

[Newchodge]

But right now we have a road map out of lockdown under way

They have one into lockdown?

Reading your recent posts, I am afraid you have been hanging out with Justin for too long. Screaming a single point and demanding that everyone agree with it is pretty pointless.

 

[Interestedobserver]

Reading your recent posts, I am afraid you have been hanging out with Justin for too long. Screaming a single point and demanding that everyone agree with it is pretty pointless.

Thanks for the advice

Are you pleased with how well UK is doing in managing Covid right now Cyndy?

 

[Justin Smith]

 

[Newchodge]

Thanks for the advice

Are you pleased with how well UK is doing in managing Covid right now Cyndy?

Today? I don't have the data.

 

[Interestedobserver]

Today? I don't have the data.

Lol - I knew you wouldn't be able to give any praise!

Like some of the others

Some people just can't give credit when credit is due

Very quick to criticise - very reticent to praise when we are doing well

I guess that's why we are often called a nation of complainers

 

[Newchodge]

Lol - I knew you wouldn't be able to give any praise!

Like some of the others

Some people just can't give credit when credit is due

Very quick to criticise - very reticent to praise when we are doing well

I guess that's why we are often called a nation of complainers

Goodbye

 

[Interestedobserver]

Goodbye

Lol - she just can't bring herself to praise our leaders

Takes success for granted. Criticises anything else

Like others on here

 

[Aniela]

You can't just compare countries like that? It makes no sense.

There's a lot of variables to take into consideration and a comparison like that is misleading.

That graph doesn't show if the UK or Sweden had better measures in place than the other.

#ClassicJustin

 

[Justin Smith]

You can't just compare countries like that? It makes no sense.
There's a lot of variables to take into consideration and a comparison like that is misleading.
That graph doesn't show if the UK or Sweden had better measures in place than the other.

Keep up please.
Although Sweden has introduced more stringent suppression measures in the last few months they are still far less severe that ours are here. For most of the year the Swedes were more or less living a normal life. Other than for their equivalent of 6th forms they have never shut schools.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/sweden-covid-schools-closed-lockdown-b1766304.html
I heard on the radio the other morning that, despite the fact the UK has one of the most successful vaccine rollouts in the world we have some of the most stringent suppression measures. If true that proves we are living in a post rational world.

 

[Interestedobserver]

UK had to have tough lockdowns due to the fact we had a tougher variant to get control of

As other countries (like Sweden) are slowly but surely finding out

Weve done so well to get ourselves through the worst of this already (hopefully)

Let's be grateful we are heading out of lockdowns when other countries are having to bring them in

 

[jpjj]

UK had to have tough lockdowns due to the fact we had a tougher variant to get control of

As other countries (like Sweden) are slowly but surely finding out

Weve done so well to get ourselves through the worst of this already (hopefully)

Let's be grateful we are heading out of lockdowns when other countries are having to bring them in

Long ago at work I remember a Facilities team in my employer wanted feedback about their performance (during a management meeting) as part of some exercise they were going through, asking for marks out of 10 and a comment. One of those present wanted to give them two scores, 10/10 for exemplary response to crises to rapidly restore order, and 1/10 because in subsequent investigations they always seemed to have a hand in creating the root cause of the crisis.

But it's right to give praise when things go well, while hoping that lessons will be learned about the less successful areas of performance to avoid future problems.

 

[Interestedobserver]

Long ago at work I remember a Facilities team in my employer wanted feedback about their performance (during a management meeting) as part of some exercise they were going through, asking for marks out of 10 and a comment. One of those present wanted to give them two scores, 10/10 for exemplary response to crises to rapidly restore order, and 1/10 because in subsequent investigations they always seemed to have a hand in creating the root cause of the crisis.

But it's right to give praise when things go well, while hoping that lessons will be learned about the less successful areas of performance to avoid future problems.

Exactly. And we will have learnt so much from this. Worst crisis in modern times and we are coming through it way better than most.

 

[Aniela]

Keep up please.
Although Sweden has introduced more stringent suppression measures in the last few months they are still far less severe that ours are here. For most of the year the Swedes were more or less living a normal life. Other than for their equivalent of 6th forms they have never shut schools.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/sweden-covid-schools-closed-lockdown-b1766304.html
I heard on the radio the other morning that, despite the fact the UK has one of the most successful vaccine rollouts in the world we have some of the most stringent suppression measures. If true that proves we are living in a post rational world.

It's not about keeping up.

It's about you posting misleading graphs that don't hold any meaning AGAIN.

From the two graphs you posted, you can not know if any country did better than the other. There are too many variables, which the graphs do not show.

You're jumping to conclusions to fit your own personal agenda AGAIN.

See that image above? It shows the world is flat. Keep up!

Your graph images are akin to posting the above image and saying the above. You don't have the full picture to be able to ascertain anything.

 

[John Hemming]

You don't have the full picture to be able to ascertain anything.

I think this is a useful point. We have gradually got more and more information. Anieia takes a view that they don't have enough information to ascertain anything. I think we have enough information to come to some conclusions.

In the end fewer people in the UK would have died had we concentrated on protecting the vulnerable rather than trying and failing to control the virus.

Still this is now a form of religious debate much like brexit where people don't try to analyse the facts and see if their viewpoint is wrong, but instead drag out factoids that appear to substantiate their prejudice.

 

[Aniela]

I think this is a useful point. We have gradually got more and more information. Anieia takes a view that they don't have enough information to ascertain anything. I think we have enough information to come to some conclusions.

In the end fewer people in the UK would have died had we concentrated on protecting the vulnerable rather than trying and failing to control the virus.

Still this is now a form of religious debate much like brexit where people don't try to analyse the facts and see if their viewpoint is wrong, but instead drag out factoids that appear to substantiate their prejudice.

You related to Justin by any chance?

Boggles the mind.

 

[John Hemming]

You related to Justin by any chance?

Boggles the mind.

The virus is seasonal and more virulent in the autumn/winter. Hence it is now going up again in the Southern Hemisphere. The interesting test is what happens in Australia and New Zealand. If they get enough people vaccinated then they have a chance. Otherwise it will demonstrate the limits of restrictions.

 

[Interestedobserver]

I think this is a useful point. We have gradually got more and more information. Anieia takes a view that they don't have enough information to ascertain anything. I think we have enough information to come to some conclusions.

In the end fewer people in the UK would have died had we concentrated on protecting the vulnerable rather than trying and failing to control the virus.

That's entirely speculative. You've got so much so wrong in your speculation from when you started posting on here.

That you can't be taken seriously.

Armchair expert. Who guessed and promised stuff that proved to be wrong.

Yet continues to talk like they are an expert.

 

[Interestedobserver]

The virus is seasonal and more virulent in the autumn/winter. Hence it is now going up again in the Southern Hemisphere. The interesting test is what happens in Australia and New Zealand. If they get enough people vaccinated then they have a chance. Otherwise it will demonstrate the limits of restrictions.

Yes they have a real chance to benefit from the vaccines. Cut themselves off until they became available. Totally minimised risk of death for all.

But if they are successful it's by going for a totally opposite route that you and Justin and co advocate.

Full shutdown and closing of borders. Aiming for zero Covid.

Not exactly focussing on just protecting the vulnerable is it?

 

[simon field]

Yes they have a real chance to benefit from the vaccines. Cut themselves off until they became available. Totally minimised risk of death for all.

But if they are successful it's by going for a totally opposite route that you and Justin and co advocate.

Full shutdown and closing of borders. Aiming for zero Covid.

Not exactly focussing on just protecting the vulnerable is it?

Sorry but you are like a Gatling gun of words. I thought you were going to stop posting on these threads - at least that’s definitely what you said.

It’s not doing you or anyone else any good whatsoever.

 

[Justin Smith]

UK had to have tough lockdowns due to the fact we had a tougher variant to get control of
As other countries (like Sweden) are slowly but surely finding out
Weve done so well to get ourselves through the worst of this already (hopefully)
Let's be grateful we are heading out of lockdowns when other countries are having to bring them in

We are heading out of lockdowns (though far to slowly)because of the vaccine, do not confuse the issue with anything else.

Would that be the far more transmittable "Kent" variant ? The one which emerged in the back half of last year and then led to a drop in deaths in London ?
If it didn't, why did London have (relatively speaking) a much easier time of it in the second wave than the rest of the country ? Bearing in mind you said my theory that London had more resistance to Covid (because of its higher earlier exposure) "was rubbish" ?

I remember the headlines : "Watch out, new extra infectious Covid variant (which may be more lethal) discovered in Kent". That was late last year.
(Just to remind you, London is right next to Kent and is between Kent and the rest of the UK, and some people on here were saying London has no more resistance to Covid than the rest of the UK).

 

[Justin Smith]

Yes they have a real chance to benefit from the vaccines. Cut themselves off until they became available. Totally minimised risk of death for all.
But if they are successful it's by going for a totally opposite route that you and Justin and co advocate.
Full shutdown and closing of borders. Aiming for zero Covid.
Not exactly focussing on just protecting the vulnerable is it?

They will not get zero Covid, not unless they continue with quarantine (and intermittent lockdowns every time one of the guards sleeps with one of the "inmates") forever.
They might want that (though I do not think they do actually), I do not.

 

[Justin Smith]

That's entirely speculative. You've got so much so wrong in your speculation from when you started posting on here.
That you can't be taken seriously.
Armchair expert. Who guessed and promised stuff that proved to be wrong.
Yet continues to talk like they are an expert.

It's all entirely speculative.
People would have more time for your arguments if you more regularly acknowledged the massive harm being done to society and the economy by these suppression measures.

 

[MikeJ]

Would that be the far more transmittable "Kent" variant ? The one which emerged in the back half of last year and then led to a drop in deaths in London ?

By the graph you posted, the deaths went UP by around a factor of 10! It's a really special mind that considers that to be a drop.

 

[Justin Smith]

I think this is a useful point. We have gradually got more and more information. Anieia takes a view that they don't have enough information to ascertain anything. I think we have enough information to come to some conclusions.
In the end fewer people in the UK would have died had we concentrated on protecting the vulnerable rather than trying and failing to control the virus.
Still this is now a form of religious debate much like brexit where people don't try to analyse the facts and see if their viewpoint is wrong, but instead drag out factoids that appear to substantiate their prejudice.

Even if we didn't before, we certainly do now.
There is much we do not know, but here are a few things which are known facts :

1 - All vaccines are still very effective at preventing serious illness with all known variants of Covid.
2 - The vast majority of deaths and serious illness with Covid come from people over 60.
3 - The suppression measures (even if they were necessary before, a point which could be argued both ways) have done enormous harm to society and the economy and continue to do so.

We surely can all agree on the above ?
Once we have done that surely the way ahead is obvious, and as fast as possible.....

 

[Justin Smith]

By the graph you posted, the deaths went UP by around a factor of 10! It's a really special mind that considers that to be a drop.

What matters is the comparison with the rest of the country, where they went up much faster and remained higher significantly longer.

 

[MikeJ]

Really? I think what matters is a new variant appeared which was much more transmissible, and caused a massive increase across the UK in both cases and deaths.

 

[Interestedobserver]

Even if we didn't before, we certainly do now.
There is much we do not know, but here are a few things which are known facts :

1 - All vaccines are still very effective at preventing serious illness with all known variants of Covid.
2 - The vast majority of deaths and serious illness with Covid come from people over 60.
3 - The suppression measures (even if they were necessary before, a point which could be argued both ways) have done enormous harm to society and the economy and continue to do so.

We surely can all agree on the above ?
Once we have done that surely the way ahead is obvious, and as fast as possible.....

Just under 1 in 4 people in the UK are over 60?

You talk like just under 25 per cent of the population don't matter?

 

[Interestedobserver]

We are heading out of lockdowns (though far to slowly)because of the vaccine, do not confuse the issue with anything else.

Would that be the far more transmittable "Kent" variant ? The one which emerged in the back half of last year and then led to a drop in deaths in London ?
If it didn't, why did London have (relatively speaking) a much easier time of it in the second wave than the rest of the country ? Bearing in mind you said my theory that London had more resistance to Covid (because of its higher earlier exposure) "was rubbish" ?

Since Covid began London's population is estimated to have dropped by 700,000 (8 per cent of the population)

That's an estimate based on the amount of people from abroad who returned home and the people who worked and lived in the city have moved out

I doubt it's in the official population figures yet

But you can't compare London now to what it was like at the start of Covid

It's a shadow of its former self

 

[Justin Smith]

Really? I think what matters is a new variant appeared which was much more transmissible, and caused a massive increase across the UK in both cases and deaths.

Except it didn't (relatively speaking) in London, which was at its epicentre.