Wages in the rain.......

[Redd]

Hi All, I currently run a landscaping company in Edinburgh, we currently run of 3 teams and a project manager, things have picked up pretty well this year after a slump in 2017 and we are doing pretty well.
After taking advice (some on here) I decided to take majority of the good staff on the books with a basic pay, before we were paying per job with price work (£ per m2 laid mono block for example) and back then we were making good money. since then as mentioned I have taken them on the books, mainly because I was talked into believing HMRC would come down hard on us for using continuous subbies and that if they weren't supplying materials, tools, vans etc then they essentially HAD to be taken on the books, as I'm sure you have guessed production has slowed right down since they have been put on an hourly rate with holiday pay etc. I was expecting this to be honest and whilst its incredibly frustrating it is what it is, my problem now (first winter with guys on books) is its starting to rain more with more rain and snow on the way (were in Scotland) and now I'm thinking I have bitten off more than I can chew, there is no way I can sustain paying 9 men for sitting in a van for 2/3 hours a day for example for these winter months, if they were on a price it wouldn't be an issue, I also can't be onsite on 3 different sites to make sure there actually working when they say.

Is there a way around this that anyone knows of or any suggestions here.

 

[Gordon - Commercial Finance]

Hi @Redd

Firstly I must say you've done the right thing putting them on as staff. Whoever gave you the advice to do so I would say they were talking sense. You don't want to get on the wrong side of HMRC and you're ahead of the game now in that respect.
Being in Scotland myself, I definitely sympathise about the weather. Looking out there today I certainly wouldn't want to be out landscaping in it!

If you have taken on the "good staff" as you put it, I would say trust your instinct in terms of whether they're doing the work or not. As far as the weather is concerned, there's nothing you can do about that...just need to make sure you've got teams in place ready to work when its dry enough to do so.

Are these guys on hourly contracts? You could reduce their contracted hours so that you will be closer to the point where you only pay them when they're working, but to be fair to those guys it would probably be good to make sure they're getting a decent enough number of hours in a week...rather than them being on the dreaded zero hour contract.

 

[Gordon - Commercial Finance]

Probably not the answer you were looking for @Redd ?

You could look at ways of saving money elsewhere - are your vans on finance?

 

[AllUpHere]

Although it doesn't seem like it, what you've got is a marketing problem. There are services you can offer that will keep the men busy all through the winter. Fencing is an obvious example. A lot of fencing can be done regardless of the weather, it's a much more sought after service in the winter, and it's incredibly easy work to get. You could easily keep them busy all winter with a very low marketing spend. If you get it right, it sells itself.

 

[Redd]

Although it doesn't seem like it, what you've got is a marketing problem. There are services you can offer that will keep the men busy all through the winter. Fencing is an obvious example. A lot of fencing can be done regardless of the weather, it's a much more sought after service in the winter, and it's incredibly easy work to get. You could easily keep them busy all winter with a very low marketing spend. If you get it right, it sells itself.

There’s absolutely no issues getting work? Nor any finance problems (yet) we are already booked out for the whole winter. My issues here are having to pay guys when it rains? Trying to sustain this is gonna be difficult I think and could potentially ruin a really profitable year

 

[AllUpHere]

There’s absolutely no issues getting work? Nor any finance problems (yet) we are already booked out for the whole winter. My issues here are having to pay guys when it rains? Trying to sustain this is gonna be difficult I think and could potentially ruin a really profitable year

That's why I suggested getting work you can do in the rain.

 

[Gordon - Commercial Finance]

My issues here are having to pay guys when it rains?

Surely its more about having to pay guys when they're not working and earning money? @AllUpHere has made some good suggestions in that regard.

 

[Colin_W]

Agree with posters above that having your teams as employees was the right thing to day. A couple of thoughts on your predicament:

Do you provide your teams with an expected time for jobs to be completed? This way they know that a job should take, for example, 6 hours and if it takes any ore than that you can ask what caused the delay and decide if these are valid delays or a case of production just slowing down.

If you issue your teams with phones, could you ask them to take a photo on site every couple of hours or so? This gives you a great before/during/after portfolio of photos to use, but also lets you see the progress that was made on a job.

The other thought is about pricing - if you expect an average to two hours a day to be lost, could you price that into the job? Maybe not at your full labour rate, but enough that if it does happen you won't lose out too heavily.

 

[MikeJ]

Can't help with your question, but can you drop me a PM with your details please. I'm in the west of Edinburgh (Currie) and have some work you may be interested in.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Get them some good weatherproof clothing and build a place back at the depot to do overnight cleaning and drying. How else do you think you get Cornish daffodils in winter?

 

[Mr D]

Get them some good weatherproof clothing and build a place back at the depot to do overnight cleaning and drying. How else do you think you get Cornish daffodils in winter?

Polytunnels.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

there is no way I can sustain paying 9 men for sitting in a van for 2/3 hours a day

Is there a way around this that anyone knows of or any suggestions here.

Temporary lay-offs seems the obvious answer. Any reason why you can't do that, @Redd ?



Karl Limpert

 

[fisicx]

There’s absolutely no issues getting work? Nor any finance problems (yet) we are already booked out for the whole winter. My issues here are having to pay guys when it rains?

Why can't they work in the rain? Builders seem to manage OK. Even the bloke who pressure washed our patio didn't have a problem.

If it's because you need to keep the rain off the ground do as already suggested and get a polytunnel.

 

[UKSBD]

Always have hospital work for when they can't do other work.
A lot of it is in the planning and management.

 

[Redd]

They can work in the rain but within reason. It’s battered down here for 2/3 days last week. Normal rain is fine!

 

[Redd]

I think where I was going with this is I was looking for advice on how to pay them and stay legit. For example, making them part time in winter? Zero hour contract in winter? I don’t know, we’re trying tirelessly here to change the landscape on landscaping (no pun intended) and pay our guys well and correctly, holiday pay, vans, uniforms etc. The vast majority of firms ain’t doing anything close to it in the industry which makes it even more difficult to be even remotely competitive. That doesn’t bother me too much but paying 10 guys to sit in a van is gonna hurt us.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

I think where I was going with this is I was looking for advice on how to pay them and stay legit. For example, making them part time in winter? Zero hour contract in winter?

Temporary lay-offs? Short-time working? All perfectly legit, if your employment contracts allow for this - and they should, given this is a big issue at times of the year.

(If the contracts don't allow for these options, get them amended.)


Karl Limpert

 

[Redd]

Temporary lay-offs? Short-time working? All perfectly legit, if your employment contracts allow for this - and they should, given this is a big issue at times of the year.

(If the contracts don't allow for these options, get them amended.)


Karl Limpert

Hi Karl, what do you mean get them amended? amended to what exactly? what is legal to put in a. contract?

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Surely being rained off is part and parcel of the business your in, make hay while the sun shines and all that?

I'd be more concerned that production slowed right down when the payment method changed.

How about adding another string to your bow, something like chewing gum removal (first thing that came to mind)?

 

[Redd]

Surely being rained off is part and parcel of the business your in, make hay while the sun shines and all that?

I'd be more concerned that production slowed right down when the payment method changed.

How about adding another string to your bow, something like chewing gum removal (first thing that came to mind)?

95%

 

[Redd]

i think what I’m asking is....

If they can’t work due to rain or snow do I have to pay them? Anyone who works in construction will know the type If Guys I employ, there lovely and funny and good workers most of the time but the generally will take the P at any given point and one of these issues is sitting in the van if it rains. They all have waterproofs and I know I can legally make them work which I don’t particularly want to do but I can’t afford to have 9 guys sitting in a van for 2/3 hours 4/5 days a week.

 

[Newchodge]

If they can’t work due to rain or snow do I have to pay them?

It depends on their contracts. If they get paid £x per week, Monday to friday, 8 till 4, and they are present at those times, then yes.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Hi Karl, what do you mean get them amended? amended to what exactly? what is legal to put in a. contract?

i think what I’m asking is....


If they can’t work due to rain or snow do I have to pay them? Anyone who works in construction will know the type If Guys I employ, there lovely and funny and good workers most of the time but the generally will take the P at any given point and one of these issues is sitting in the van if it rains. They all have waterproofs and I know I can legally make them work which I don’t particularly want to do but I can’t afford to have 9 guys sitting in a van for 2/3 hours 4/5 days a week.

I’m not clear if this is a management issue – you’re simply allowing them not to work when they can, but choose not to because it’s raining – or that they can’t perform the work.


As stated above, it’s perfectly legal to put terms into your employment contracts that state the staff will be placed on short-term working and/or temporarily laid-off if circumstances mean working is not possible; and that pay will reflect the day/shours worked, not the full contractual days/hours. (If it’s perfectly possible that work can be done, but isn’t because outdoor workers are shy of the elements, that’s probably a management issue, not a contractual issue, but you could get terms drafted that if the work can’t or won’t be done, there will be no pay.)

It depends on their contracts. If they get paid £x per week, Monday to friday, 8 till 4, and they are present at those times, then yes.

And if the contracts are silent, they’ll be entitled to be paid… until you get the contracts or the staff’s attitudes changed.



Karl Limpert