VAT on exports?

jxm28788

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Nov 16, 2007
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Hi,

We have a customer who is an exporter and they want to order goods from me and then export them to Africa.

They claim that they don't need to pay VAT and will provide me with a certificate of shipment and copy of airwaybill once goods have been exported.

Can someone clarify the VAT situation in this case? Does VAT need to be paid? Shouldn't they pay me and then claim it back themselves? and what if they are not vat registered?

Thanks.
 
If your customer is UK based then they will have to pay you VAT and reclaim it. They will then send on the goods to Africa at Zero rate.

If your customer is not VAT registered (unlikely if they are buying from UK at standard rate and sending overseas zero rate) then they will not be able to claim the VAT back.

If your customer is EU based and VAT registered then they will not have to pay the VAT provided that you show their Registration number on your invoices.
 
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What DFL said is right and also you can call VAT Office 0845 010 900 and ask more questions and they will be able to advise you aswell what you can do
 
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ok, that's what I thought - thanks.

On a related matter, I also have a college that doesn't think they should pay VAT - are they exempt or do they just claim it back like everyone else?
 
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ok, that's what I thought - thanks.

On a related matter, I also have a college that doesn't think they should pay VAT - are they exempt or do they just claim it back like everyone else?

Colleges are usually charities, but charities have very few reliefs or concessions when it comes to VAT but they will always try the old "we don't pay VAT" line as most colleges are exempt businesses and therefore cannot recover any input VAT they incur...fso they'll try to avoid being charged it by people like you.

Most of the reliefs are concerning construction and refurbishment of buildings and some goods can be zero-rated if for A disabled persons use - but that's about it.

If you can specify what you're selling them I can let you know yay or nay....and DFL's exports response was spot on.
 
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Printer consumables will be standard-rated supplies.

Some charities can get equipment zero-rated if it is used for medical, research and other purposes so it is possible they bought a printer/copier for use in research which was zero-rated. or it could be being used by disabled persons in their education or treatment.

Quote "Norwich Camera Centre Ltd vs HMRC [1995]", which established that equipment which may be zero-rated (as above), the consumables of that equipment do not get any zero-rating relief (ie, paper, inks, etc). So printer consumables will not be zero-rated. Your goods will never be "exempt" as that is not a rate of VAT and is usually associated with land and financial services. Education is exempt (ie, the college can't charge VAT), but that is nothing to do with the goods and service they buy in from other businesess.

So they were trying it on... and remember, if you choose not to charge VAT then if found to be incorrect, you will be liable for that VAT to HMRC, not your customer!.
 
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cool thanks.

Going back to the original question. They have come back and said they are a 'freight forwarder' based at Heathrow.

They also have an office in Africa, so could I use that on the invoice, but ship to their uk address? Does the fact that they are a 'freight forwarder' make any difference? So in effect I guess I will be selling to their African office but delivering to them at heathrow for them to deliver it to themselves in Africa...?
 
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Freight forwarders can seek goods to be zero rated because they are acting on behalf of the customer (in Africa), so you can zero rate this transaction as in effect you are selling to Africa but simply going through the shipping agent who is based in the UK.

Just make sure that you have evidence of export like the airway bills, etc(within 3 months of transaction) that proves the goods were exported and don't lose the damn things as otherwise if HMRC visit you, they will say you have no evidence of export and expect you to charge VAT on that transaction, which means you'll have to stump up the VAT yourself.
 
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So freight forwarders are a special case.

who do I invoice to - the freight forwarders UK office (that I send the goods to), their Africa office (that they forward the goods to), or the end customer (I have no idea who this is and I'm guessing they wouldn't tell me anyway)?
 
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You may need to have a good read of Notice 703 - Exports, link below :-

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...ntent&id=HMCE_CL_000130&propertyType=document

Have a glance at section 2.5 which should throw some light onto the subject!. I'd advise the invoice is to the (African) customer as that is who you are selling it to - the freight agent is just that, an agent handling the freight and all the customs paperwork on your behalf.

And this link below is the bit about TURNS (which will not make any sense unless you do the link above first!!) :-

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...ent&id=HMCE_PROD_008113&propertyType=document

Have a gander at section 2.1 and 2.4 which basically says your TURN number will be your VAT number plus 000 on the end but that you need to get permission first from HMRC (number supplied in 2.4)

Well, gives you something to read over the weekend at least....!:D.
 
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First of all, I've only read what is here, but from reading what has been said, I'd like to add the following.

It sounds to me like your Freight Forwarder is not acting as a Freight Forwarder in this case, because they are wanting to buy the goods from you and sell them on to their African customer. If they were acting as a freight forwarder, surely you would be dealing with the African customer, and invoicing them and the forwarder would be, well, forwarding.

They may well be freight forwarders, but it sounds to me like they are simply being your customer in this case, and they would need to be charged the VAT.

I may be wrong of course :)
 
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doh, now I need a 3rd opinion!

How about if that was the case but I was selling to the freight forwarders african office, but delivering to their UK office for forwarding...?
 
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doh, now I need a 3rd opinion!

How about if that was the case but I was selling to the freight forwarders african office, but delivering to their UK office for forwarding...?

jxm. Trust me, freight forwarders are not in the business of buying goods from one business and selling them onto another one. Their business is transporting freight and handling the paperwork on your behalf.

Go read the notice 703 I've linked to, read the sections I've mentioned. You are selling an item to Africa and either you or they have engaged a freight forwarder. The FF deals with the transaction - you just need to make sure you get proof of exportation from them.

All will become clear and karma will endure!.
 
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jxm. Trust me, freight forwarders are not in the business of buying goods from one business and selling them onto another one. Their business is transporting freight and handling the paperwork on your behalf.
And the payment to? They are the ones who are actually paying me. And they are the ones who approached me to buy the goods on behalf of the unknown end customer. Is that still ok?
 
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Hmmm.

Apologies for the delay in responding - had a meeting to go to then that Friday feeling!.

Let me haver another think about this today - it is unusual in terms of what you are describing. This freight forwarders also sounds like it is in the business of buying & selling?.

Bottom line, if you invoice a UK company, then the invoice MUST have VAT on it - no question - regardless of whether that customer is going to export out of the country or not. If you don't know the 'customer' in Africa, then you can only invoice the customer you do know, the UK company.

Let me see if my colleages know of a business that operates this way, but does seem a little odd and at the end of the day, you can charge VAT if you want to and the UK 'freight buyer thingy entity' can recover the VAT if it is engaged in legitimate trade - so should be no issue for them.
 
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As 3pic says, it sounds a bit odd. During the day I work for a exporter we have to be very careful that we get the VAT right. We have had a Arab country request we deliver to the UK, so a member of staff could "carry" the goods with them. We charged VAT, gave them a form to hand to Customs at Heathrow, who confirmed the goods left the country and sent the form back to us. I then refunded the VAT that had been paid.

If we have a UK company that wishes to purchase goods from us, we always charge VAT, UNLESS we arrange the shipment ourselves so we can prove it left the country. The only time we allow "Freight forwarders" to collect goods organised by customers, is if the customer is overseas, and we know the FF well! Then the FF will always send us a copy of the AWB to confirm. But the invoice is not to a UK company. I had an Irish customer, who was very bad a letting us have copys of their FF AWB, so I ended up charging them VAT. Told them I would give them a credit note for the VAT if they could prove the goods had left the UK. (I later found out, that they were actually delivering them in the UK - we could have been in real trouble if I'd accepted their word.)

I have a lot of complicated shipments - Customer could be in the EU, ship to the US for additional work, ship back to us for more adjustments, then out to somewhere like China. The worse ones, are Asian customer, ship to their EU customer - as we install & commission the goods (which we design/build) my reporting gets complicated, but VAT is actually simpler. So far our African shipments have been done through another EU Country, and usually it initially is shipped to another EU country so its just the EU reporting for us.

I would charge VAT to the FF. If they are really who they say they are, they will be able to reclaim the VAT, so paying it should not make any difference to them - and you have your protection should the VAT office question it at a later date.
 
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Hello, I have a similar question any help: is really appreaciated:

I am buying goods in UK and export to my customer out of EU. I know I need to pay VAT to my supplier and do not need to charge VAT my customer. But will I be able to claim the VAT back that was charged from my supplier? Should I need to be VAT registered to claim it? If so, does that mean if I pay £100 (inc. VAT) and then sell for £100, I can still have £17.50 profit?

Cheers
 
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This is a standard solution we use for our businesses. If the supplier acts as exporter and then sells the goods in international waters/airspace, the supplier has made a zero-rated export of goods. The sale has taken place outside the scope of EC VAT and there is no VAT on that sale. If the supplier cannot act as exporter, 3pic's sage solutions are the only alternatives (i.e. indirect export or charge UK VAT).

So, how does this apply to your query?

1. Well, if you are not VAT registered, you cannot reclaim VAT.

2. But you can volunteer to register for VAT and then recover the VAT on purchases (if you make no "VAT exempt" supplies). Indeed, if your exports exceed the annual VAT registration threshold (in the UK, currently it is £67,000), you will have to register. True, HMRC often permit zero-rated suppliers not to be VAT registered, but technically you are required to register if you exceed the VAT registration threshold.

3. Or you can ask your supplier to export the goods and sell to you in international waters/airspace (without VAT), and see what they say.

Hope this helps?
 
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Hi, thanks for the reply. Though I am still a bit confused.

I have to be VAT registered to claim the VAT. But you said for zero rating bisiness, you do not always need to be VAT rigistered?

I don't think for beginning my business will be over £60,000 and I plan to get my profit by claiming the VAT on my purchase (£17.50 I mentioned) so I can supply the goods on the price I get. What's the side effect of registering VAT? It sounds something scary serious.

Cheers
 
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Sorry to confuse you, Spring. I have so many possibilities in my head, it is sometimes difficult to simplify but remain correct! It's easier face-to-face, as I can ask questions and narrow down the possibilities more quickly. But do feel free to come back with more details for more detailed/clearer comments :-)

Taking your points in order:

1. You cannot reclaim VAT without being VAT registered.

2. For example, a UK business supplying raw food to a UK supermarket would not charge UK VAT as foodstuffs are generally zero-rated. But it might still pay UK VAT on its purchases of accountancy services, for example.

3. At the start, the UK food supplier will make supplies totalling less than the VAT registration threshold. It can remain unregistered, but it cannot reclaim VAT on purchases of accountants fees. This extra VAT will be a cost for the UK food supplier.

4. But the UK food supplier could voluntarily register for UK VAT. It will be able to reclaim VAT on the accountancy service. But it will still not charge UK VAT on its sales, as these are "zero-rated" anyway (there is a list in UK VAT law and certain foodstuffs are on that list).

5. Once the UK food supplier's sales exceed the VAT registration threshold, it is obliged to register for UK VAT. However, as the UK food supplier's sales are all zero-rated, HMRC might permit the company not to register, if this is desired by all parties (e.g. if it saves the cost of hiring a VAT accountant!).

6. How does this apply to your business? Basically, you are in the same category as the food supplier. All your supplies are probably "zero-rated" (though as exports, rather than as foodstuff!), but you will be paying VAT to your UK supplier.

7. So, without being VAT registered, you cannot reclaim the VAT on your purchases. However, you have the option to register for VAT even before you pass the VAT registration threshold. Once VAT registered, you can start reclaiming VAT on purchases. But you will probably not have to charge VAT to your customer (providing you can prove that the goods were sold to non-EC businesses and removed from the EC).

8. You say you can only make a profit if you reclaim the VAT on purchases. So your project requires the business to VAT register (voluntarily). You will need to consider how much a VAT accountant would cost. Furthermore, if you have other businesses, these might also be caught by the VAT registration (i.e. you might have to charge VAT on any other supplies you make). Your VAT accountant would have to advise you on this.

As I say, it is far easier to discuss face-to-face. Many accountants will sit down and discuss initial requirements with you and only charge for compliance work (i.e. completing VAT returns, bookkeeping, etc.). You can talk to several and seek fee quotes too, if VAT returns are something you would not want to do yourself.

Hope it helps & good luck!
 
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Many thanks. But what do you mean "charge VAT on your other supplies"? Are you allowed to not charge VAT to your customer if you are not registered? How much will it cost to have a VAT accountant (export mainly)?

Cheers
 
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It is illegal to charge VAT if you are not VAT registered.

There is no fixed cost of having a VAT accountant. My two firms, for example, charge maybe £500/year for basic VAT returns, plus time costs for additional work (e.g. if HMRC want to inspect any VAT records, or if you need advice on setting out your sales invoices correctly, etc.). But if I were doing this for you (which I cannot at present), I might only charge £25 per VAT return. So do shop around.

The fees will usually depend how many invoices (purchase and sales) you have and how well you keep your books. It will obviously be more expensive if you have 500 invoices and no invoice schedules, than if you have a dozen invoices all clearly presented and listed.

Good luck!
 
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I have posted the following question on another thread but this seem the one i should have asked the question

I am in the process of starting up a export business and being vat registered.When i provide the receipts for the items to customs will till receipts do ie from companies such as argos,tescos, etc
 
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