Unpaid Overtime

[DavidWH]

It seem's the done thing that companies no longer pay for overtime, and provided the employee's average wage doesn't drop below NMW it's perfectly legal.

Suppose an employee voluntarily does overtime (ie not asked by a member a manager), in order to keep on top of their work.

Doing an additional 2hrs 'overtime' a day, will take them under the NMW... but as they've not been 'asked' to do the overtime, can it be classed as overtime?

As overtime isn't paid, and they're not asked to do it, there's no record of this overtime worked.

I'm aware of case with Sports Direct where staff were searched on exiting their warehouse, and that extra 30mins took them below NMW.

 

[Newchodge]

It seem's the done thing that companies no longer pay for overtime, and provided the employee's average wage doesn't drop below NMW it's perfectly legal.

Suppose an employee voluntarily does overtime (ie not asked by a member a manager), in order to keep on top of their work.

Doing an additional 2hrs 'overtime' a day, will take them under the NMW... but as they've not been 'asked' to do the overtime, can it be classed as overtime?

As overtime isn't paid, and they're not asked to do it, there's no record of this overtime worked.

I'm aware of case with Sports Direct where staff were searched on exiting their warehouse, and that extra 30mins took them below NMW.

If the overtime is aceepted by management, then it is a NMW issue. If management is completely unaware that the extra time is being worked, then they need to be told. If they don't immediately put a stop to it, then it is a NMW issue.

If anyone needs to work an additional 10 hours unpaid per week there is an issue. If they work a standard 37 hour week, that is an additional 27%. If they work a standard 40 hour week, that is an additional 25% and takes them over the 48 hour per week maximumj limit. If they need to do that to 'stay on top of the work', either they are working too slowly or too incompetently, which is a management issue, or they have too much work to do, which is also a management issue.

 

[DavidWH]

Thank's Cyndy.

This doesn't relate to my own business. It's actually for my partner who I explained this to last night, considering she's 50pence over NMW it doesn't take much to drop below that. It's most certainly a management issue.

Having been relocated within the company to this new role 12months ago, she's already getting excellent praise from management, and out performing those more complacent members of staff who have been doing the role for 10+ years. In fact they've taken some workload from one long serving member of staff and given it to her to do. There are appraisals to back up this.

I wasn't sure as she voluntarily does the OT, without being asked whether they could backtrack and say it's not OT.

Despite the fact she didn't start early today, I was still awoken by her alarm at 4am, and couldn't get back to sleep

 

[Newchodge]

Whether overtime is voluntary or not doesn't matter. The employer is getting the benefit of the work and should know this. Your partner should really keep a record of the hours she is doing.

I, personally, disagree with your comment

out performing those more complacent members of staff

if she is working 25% more hours than they are, she should be out-performing them! Not working unpaid overtime is not complacency, it is sensible. How can the employer understand their cost-base, if they do not know how many hours staff need to work to get the job done.

 

[DavidWH]

They too are working unpaid overtime, although probably getting paid more.

My comment about complacency was regards to those more experienced, doing things the way they always have, reluctant to change, and creating more work for themselves. Example is where they send only the information they're asked for, when they know their customer need a full specification, delivery dates etc, which can be provided at the first point of contact.

It's funny that another department refused to work overtime when it was unpaid, then when it was offered at a normal wage, and have finally settled for time and 1/3 over 40hrs.

I'm a stubborn git at times, and I'd be stopping it, when challenged why, explain the need for extra hours, but overtime isn't paid and will take you below NMW.

I'm sure the company are really pleased with this arrangement, staff working free... doesn't help in our quest to move to a larger house

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Has anyone put the question to management and made the point

Yes they all like the job
Yes they all want to stay
Yes they are all scarred to mention what they are doing to management

 

[STDFR33]

They too are working unpaid overtime, although probably getting paid more.

My comment about complacency was regards to those more experienced, doing things the way they always have, reluctant to change, and creating more work for themselves. Example is where they send only the information they're asked for, when they know their customer need a full specification, delivery dates etc, which can be provided at the first point of contact.

It's funny that another department refused to work overtime when it was unpaid, then when it was offered at a normal wage, and have finally settled for time and 1/3 over 40hrs.

I'm a stubborn git at times, and I'd be stopping it, when challenged why, explain the need for extra hours, but overtime isn't paid and will take you below NMW.

I'm sure the company are really pleased with this arrangement, staff working free... doesn't help in our quest to move to a larger house

If an employer was paying me just 50p above minimum wage, I would simply not be doing unpaid overtime whether it by one minute or one hour.

That said, it doesn't matter if the unpaid overtime takes your wife below the NMW as she seems happy to merrily go along with the arrangement. More fool her.

 

[DavidWH]

If an employer was paying me just 50p above minimum wage, I would simply not be doing unpaid overtime whether it by one minute or one hour.

That said, it doesn't matter if the unpaid overtime takes your wife below the NMW as she seems happy to merrily go along with the arrangement. More fool her.

She was moved from one department (lower pay, unskilled work) and trained up in her current role. One manager seems to be pushing for a pay rise, as the other team members are on more, but she's actually doing better than them in some areas.

I've told her to stop doing the overtime, and when they ask why, the perfect response is by doing overtime the company is breaking the law. Management and HR cannot argue that fact...

All the while she and others are doing it, the management just see stuff's getting done and therefore everything is hunky dory. You work to live, not live to work.

 

[UKSBD]

.

 

[Bob Morgan]

If you run your business correctly there should be no need for Overtime. If it should occur (exceptionally) then deal with it accordingly and correctly!

 

[DavidWH]

Thanks @UKSBD

More fun and games at her place of work.

Her team have continued to work overtime, although getting paid their standard pay for over 40hrs, whilst production receive time and a quarter over 40hrs.

They've no received pay reviews, which has been a blanket across the company depending on their wage. Some on lower wages received more, whilst those on higher wages received a larger increase, but there's no bonus being paid. Because of legislation changes, and them moving premises - Both caused for their department to work overtime to ensure there was work for production to do (and receive overtime for)

It's caused some friction... as management didn't tell anyone there was going to be no performance bonus, and did it by letter before they buggered off on holiday.

The blanket payrise see's those who don't perform as well, get a larger increase, bringing them closer to the pay of those who actually meet their targets.

Some departments still receive time and quarter over 40hrs, others don't.

It didn't go down too well when she came home and told me the news, showing me the letter... "I told you so" didn't help matters.

If I was here I'd be trying to claim back all the unpaid overtime, causing her to drop in NMW, however it's how you prove it. I assume HR will have a record of their clocking in/out.

I said it months and months ago, why on earth are you all doing overtime for standard pay, so that all the production team can work 40+ hours at time and quarter (more than what they get paid). The only people who benefited were the company, and production staff.

I think now she can see what how they've taken advantage, guilt tripping them, and perhaps now she'll tell them to sod off?

 

[Newchodge]

I don't suppose it is the type of company where all the office staff are women and all the production staff are men? Might there be an equal pay claim in the offing? Or even an equalities act claim.

 

[DavidWH]

No, I think most are female.

I'm more annoyed about the NMW, but it's how you get the evidence to prove it.

 

[Newchodge]

You complain to HMRC NMW compliance unit and HMRC requires the company to prove they did pay minimum wage. If they have clocking records it won't be hard.

 

[DavidWH]

I may have already done that anonymously.

I assume if she, and the other members of the team make a report but with their names, the company will find out who made the allegations?

 

[Newchodge]

I may have already done that anonymously.

I assume if she, and the other members of the team make a report but with their names, the company will find out who made the allegations?

No, but HMRC would seek further information from the named individuals to make their investigation easier. one person may complain and I would recommend it is done by a named employee.

 

[DavidWH]

Will speak to her tonight, and see if we can get something sorted.

They've taken the p**s... business is business, but the law is the law.

I think she's concerned about any repercussions, however she's plenty of other instances where she counter any argument about performance etc

 

[Chris Ashdown]

I dont get it why they dont just stop doing any overtime or failing that join a union

 

[DavidWH]

I said that months ago, if you're not being paid, why do it?

If they stopped doing it, they'd either pay them to do it, or get more staff. But they made them feel guilty about other staff being laid off, and went along with it... now the staff they helped by working unpaid are getting paid a higher rate of overtime, no bonus, thank you or anything.

Suppose I see it differently running a business. Think this is the final straw and OT will stop.