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dahowlett said:
Duane's response indicates a laissez faire attitude. It will come and bite the company. I've seen it many times before.
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I would suggest that your baiting and almost resentful slating of Duane as a person is causing yourself and FreeAgentCentral far more damage than you have tried to inflict on KashFlow.

Perhaps you have also seen this many times before but do not recognise the same behaviour in yourself ;)

As for twitter, this highlights the dangers of using a vehicle that can be abused by resentful competition who can spread potentially damaging opinions very quickly.

It seems to me a very difficult medium to control and maintain a marketing advantage through.
 
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accmanpro.com/2009/03/13/how-many-number-1s-are-there/

(It seems this forum has a limit on posts before one can link so I've finagled that to point at something that might make it clearer.
 
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@Duane
You gotta learn to ignore this stuff. It might be time to be less forthcoming and spend your time more wisely. If you're going to take questions then take them by email and consider your response in good time.
Does it help if I say that even though I don't use Kashflow I think it's GREAT :D
 
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JustOneUK said:
@Duane
You gotta learn to ignore this stuff. It might be time to less forthcoming and spend your time more wisely. If you're going to take questions then take them by email and consider your response in good time.
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I'm not going to ignore people on Twitter just because of this one incident. I don't think the lesson here is to not use Twitter at all. But to be more careful who and what kind of questions you respond to. I thought I was having a conversation, not "taking questions"!

I do spend time doing plenty of other things besides shouting online - honest!

JustOneUK said:
Does it help if I say that even though I don't use Kashflow I think it's GREAT :D
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ofcourse : )
 
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Where's the inconsistency? Surely the point is that without any form of independent measure then vendors can say what they like and assume impunity.

Note that I do not say vendors get to choose. They will of course do the cherry picking thing but that doesn't mean they do so without being challenged at some point.

Up until fairly recently it probably didn't matter that much for a variety of reasons but it is taking on increasing importance and more so as the number of claims (and inevitable counterclaims) are made.
 
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DuaneJackson said:
I don't think the lesson here is to not use Twitter at all. But to be more careful who and what kind of questions you respond to.
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It's a lesson that anything you say may be taken out of context and used against you! :) If Bill Gates had to justify every criticism or bad word spoken about him or Microsoft he'd be chasing his tail forever and we'd all be using Macs! :rolleyes:

Did I ever mention that Kashflow is the best accounting software? :p
 
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dahowlett said:
Where's the inconsistency? Surely the point is that without any form of independent measure then vendors can say what they like and assume impunity.
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So can bloggers like yourself, and in the drop of a hat kick off with what amounts to a smear campaign.

Its a shame you didn't reveal this starting revelation of businesses cherry-picking numbers earlier in your first post when you were in such a rush to bad mouth Duane. The truth is everyone knows what businesses do (The Tesco vs. Asda adverts on TV being a prime example), but you took it upon yourself to really ramp up the tension, without being objective across the board.

The second post is better, but you can still read the deep contempt laid towards Kashflow... and as such, you don't come across to me as impartial.
 
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JustOneUK said:
Did I ever mention that Kashflow is the best accounting software? :p
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What he said.

To the chap saying he's "worried by only 10-15%" adoption rates for Kashflow, I'd say that was pretty good! That means 10 to 15% of people try it out and then take the time and effort to swap their entire accounts package to a new system! That is, generally, no little effort. I tried it, as I needed something better than my paper/spreadsheet system, and I found it very quick and easy to use. I love the fact that I can email for advice or to suggest something, and it quite often gets a reply in under ten minutes, and a few of my ideas have been added.

I tried other accounts packages and found them all far less understandable, and I also didn't like things like Sage locking me in forever to a custom data format. Kashflow lets me pull all the data out in XML and go someplace else if I want. But I don't.

As for the weird attack over figures that started this thread, I don't see any duplicity from the Kashflow/DuaneJackson side of things, but I do see duplicity.
 
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Tom McClelland said:
Duane, pretty much alone amongst online bookkeeping vendors, has had the courage to declare the size of his paying UK customer base. That this openness can end up being used against him and his API partners is beyond risible.
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If that were the case, every company would do it - but they don't. A big majority of companies control very carefully the information they provide to the public domain. As small businesses and startups, we tend to be very open - but that can't continue for the long-term. Just imagine the impact on a company's stock price if it released customer numbers every week: Analysts would be jumping to all kinds of erroneous conclusions, competitors would point out worrying trends, and so on.
 
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Actually I think the opposite is true. Small businesses and startups have a tendency to be secretive, and while it is true that larger businesses control carefully what they release they often release far more. Typically the reporting requirements of quoted companies necessitate this anyway.
 
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not interested in the smear campaign on kashflow but this numbers thing is interesting. I would be more interested to know the numbers 'not sticking' AFTER they have started paying for it, rather than the conversion from trial sign up to paying. After all, we all are quite trigger happy when it comes to taking up a freebie and half the time it's just to take a look, and so not with the real intention to buy at the end of the trial.

If people are worried about users leaving, the important numbers is those leaving after paying, lets say for at least 3 months worth of use.
 
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Wow - this guy has problems - I was once told that when someone starts having a go, following you around forums, talking about you generally in a disagreeable manner, rejoice- they see you as a threat and you've made it!

Bit underhand not to divulge why the questions were being asked and for what purpose, and of course by whom.....not good business practice - industrial sabotage springs to mind!

The language by dahowlett doesn't fit with someone who has 30+ years experience though does it - slag me off, diss me down......sounds like something my 18 year old would say!
 
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I think it's the green eyed monster that's risen it's ugly head here. An old geezer whose only got 10% in a company like Duane's that isn't as successful as Kashflow and his experience outweighs Duane's own age is that right? Or near enough. And look what Duane has achieved in under 10 years.

Kate - I was thinking much the same thing myself.
 
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Personally, if I learn of criticism from any quarter, I listen to it carefully - whether or not it's justified. Of course, my natural inclination is to be defensive, but it's wiser to sit back and think carefully about what I've heard. Is it revealing a flaw that I could fix? Does it raise an idea that could benefit my business? There's little point slamming this guy: He appears to have a lot of experience, so it's a good idea to listen to his comments - no matter what the circumstances that led to them.
 
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It's not about listening to his comments though Steve, it's as much aboutn respecting his comments if anything.
 
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The bottom line is what the customers think as dahowllet mentions.Well im an extremely happy customer and find it does exactly what it says on the tin.Tried quickbooks and kashflow knocks spots off it.

So the kashflow knocker keeps warning duane its not good for the customers to see the figures etc,well thats a load of tosh as im unlikely to change to something else because he doesnt happen to like duane.

IU find it insulting to be honest you think customers are even bothered by this sort of stuff,of course not, they only care if the product will work for them not behind the scenes sniping.

If 30 years of whatever it is you do produces such an arrogant tone towards customers i think you better get yourself on a training course about how to give customers what they want which is exactly what duane does with kashflow.
 
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I didn't start this thread to get support, it was genuinely to say "be careful, this is what can happen".

I'm not easily moved (especially after a McDonalds breakfast), but I'm really grateful for all the support shown here - even from people I've given infractions to recently : )

Thank you - I really do appreciate it.
 
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Joining this debate late. But worth bumping in case anyone didn't read it last week. Because it is outstanding stuff.

From a PR point of view I have always been taught, just like Dennis says, to concentrate on your positives; not slag off competitors; and, focus on your own business.

However times they are-a-changin.

If, in my experience, Duane is anything - he's as transparent as they come. Transparent on a stick. If he thinks it - he says it. Which is why is so compulsively interesting for journos.

In times when businesses are encouraged to be less covert and more open, it would be a shame if bad experiences with journalists caused Duane to button his lip.

I've been preaching to clients for years to think carefully what you say. And tell people what they want to hear not what you want to say. But to be honest, nowadays that stuff just gets lost in a bundle of media mediocrity - if it gets picked up at all.

People want passion, honesty and character. And they want to do business with people who display it in bunches. Twitter can help you show the world what you're made of.
 
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I met Duane for the first time a couple of weeks ago and he seems a thoroughly nice bloke.

The recent Sage spat managed to find its way into the Telegraph this week and according to Duane on Twitter the noise this has generated has been massive.

In spite of it mentioning Duane's colourful past and reporting on what is basically a negative story (the spat), Duane has arguably got an amount of coverage and PR for Kashflow that couldn't easily be bought. i would guess that a whole stack of people that new of Sage but hadn't heard of Kashflow have, at the very least, learnt the name and also probably visited the website too.

No such thing as bad publicity...?
 
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Despite coming on here fairly regularly, managed to completely miss this very entertaining thread!

Unfortunately it was my incorrect figure that got picked up in the first place and was used by Dennis to bash Kashflow with.

So sorry about that - and has been corrected!

Lots has been said...but one thing really stood out for me.

Dennis has positioned himself as an independent industry commentator making fair criticisms of Kashflow, but omitted to mention that he is a major shareholder (10%) in a Kashflow competitor.

This makes the following charge very funny:

Duane's insistance on competition bashing is counter productive for both his company and the saas industry at large.
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This is all a silly storm in a teacup brewed up by someone with an agenda.
 
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