Taking PayPal to court (help please)

[hopitt]

I've followed advice from an old thread on here I can't post the link due to account restrictions but here is where im at.

so far I started legal proceedings against "PayPal (Europe) S.à r.l. et Cie, S.C.A" and served legal notice to their 2 Whittaker House address.

Firstly a company called "Womble Bond Dickson" acting on behalf of "PayPal (Europe) S.à r.l. et Cie, S.C.A"

I've today received a draft order stating two things:

The claimaint's claim is set aside, persuant to CPR 11.6(a)

The claimant do pay the defendant's costs of the application in the sum of: {£ ] (its blank)

and then in further in the packs I've received they're trying to dispute my claim based on be serving the claim to 2 Whittaker House who "forwarded" it and that Whittaker House does not carry any business activity for the "defendant".

Something about how I should have regards to CPR 6.33 6.34 and 6.40 and that here is a contractual provision of service, yet if they have terminated their relationship with me by suspending my account from a singular ebay sale the first time I've ever sold something on eBay and withhold my money for 180 days when the buyer of the item has also left extremely good feedback on the eBay and the item was delivered within a couple of days.

Any advice on how I counter this?

 

[paulears]

Too complicated for me to even understand I'm afraid - if we're talking serious money, I'd be taking some proper legal advice. I've no idea what the address bit implies - sorry.

 

[Mr D]

Sit down with a solicitor and all the paperwork including the agreement you made with PayPal to sort out the problem.

 

[Mitch3473]

In a nutshell and in English, what's it about, basically.

 

[Socio South West]

In a nutshell and in English, what's it about, basically.

.... and how much money is involved?

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

.... and how much money is involved?

hundreds and thousands

Another mad idea

 

[Mark T Jones]

Either pay for professional legal advice. Or push on regardless

or move on and get on with your life.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Either pay for professional legal advice. Or push on regardless

or move on and get on with your life.

If the OP loses the case could he or she be liable for the costs of the other party

 

[Mark T Jones]

If the OP loses the case could he or she be liable for the costs of the other party

not in small claims

 

[Darren_Ssc]

.... and how much money is involved?

Read the post, it was one item.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

You most likely fell foul of one of their rules and they have many

Paypal is now totally separate from EBay, but they do work together

Only real option is to wait for your money and spend some time reading both sets of rules and see if you can find where you went wrong

 

[Mr D]

Read the post, it was one item.

So somewhere between one pound and 30 grand.

 

[Darren_Ssc]

So somewhere between one pound and 30 grand.

Yes, likely 30 grand in the world of Mr D. So what's the legal advice then based on this information, or is it the usual round of fantasy dragon's den?

 

[Mr D]

Yes, likely 30 grand in the world of Mr D. So what's the legal advice then based on this information, or is it the usual round of fantasy dragon's den?

No, simply the OP didn't state. Hence a lower figure and upper figure was used.
Could be half the lower figure, double the higher figure.
The point is one sale doesn't tell you anything about amount. A sale of a Tesla 3 is different than a sale of a sticker set.

 

[hopitt]

The amount is for £1,300.

 

[fisicx]

The amount is for £1,300.

First sale for a high value item. PayPal are suspicious and holding your money pending investigation. They can do this - it's all detailed in the Seller T&C.

A court case will cost you far more than the value of the item.

 

[Aniela]

I've followed advice from an old thread on here I can't post the link due to account restrictions but here is where im at.

so far I started legal proceedings against "PayPal (Europe) S.à r.l. et Cie, S.C.A" and served legal notice to their 2 Whittaker House address.

Firstly a company called "Womble Bond ****son" acting on behalf of "PayPal (Europe) S.à r.l. et Cie, S.C.A"

I've today received a draft order stating two things:

The claimaint's claim is set aside, persuant to CPR 11.6(a)

The claimant do pay the defendant's costs of the application in the sum of: {£ ] (its blank)

and then in further in the packs I've received they're trying to dispute my claim based on be serving the claim to 2 Whittaker House who "forwarded" it and that Whittaker House does not carry any business activity for the "defendant".

Something about how I should have regards to CPR 6.33 6.34 and 6.40 and that here is a contractual provision of service, yet if they have terminated their relationship with me by suspending my account from a singular ebay sale the first time I've ever sold something on eBay and withhold my money for 180 days when the buyer of the item has also left extremely good feedback on the eBay and the item was delivered within a couple of days.

Any advice on how I counter this?

Without even needing to know any more details, you're wasting your time.

Paypal can terminate your account for whatever reason they want. Read the agreement you signed with them, rather than just being mad at what happened.

If you do want further assistance, which is likely the same advice as above, you need to explain what led to this situation, which you've missed out. You've left the most important details of the situation out.

You sold an item via Paypal on eBay, got good feedback but then Paypal closed down your account? Did the buyer setup a claim or anything similar?

 

[ExoPaul]

New PayPal user, sells something for £1,300, PayPal suspends the account until it investigates for fraudulent activity.

Was the PayPal account a business or personal account? The reason I ask is there are limits on how much money you are permitted to receive to a personal account.

What was the item that you sold for the high amount. Was it a prohibited item? PayPal may suspend payments until they have investigated whether you were trying to sell a firearm or narcotic, etc.

With regards to the CPR 6.3 etc, this may be useful to you: https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part06

The best way is not to take them to court in my view, but contact PayPal support and request how you can speed up the availability of funds. That you have already received confirmation of delivery and positive feedback from the buyer so how much more evidence is needed, and why they have taken the decision to suspend your account for 180 days.

 

[hopitt]

Okay so to clear a few things up.

This wasn't a new paypal account, I've had it for over 2 years and I've made plenty of transactions on it in terms of purchasing things, just never sold anything.

I sold a gaming laptop, the laptop was delivered and received by the buyer within 3 days of them purchasing and me receiving the money. eBay initially put a 21 day hold but then released the money 24 hours after delivery had been confirmed by the courier and the buyer leaving positive feedback.

It's now been 2 months since this date and the buyer is still happy with the item, no claims/chargebacks have been opened.

PayPal suspended my account and said that they no longer would be able to do business with me or no longer wanted to do business with me and that my funds could be held for up to 180 days.

I should also add that eBay actually put a hold on the initial buyer to begin with to verify that the buyer themselves had actually paid for the item and I was informed by eBay not to dispatch until they had confirmed this, 24 hours later it was confirmed and I dispatched the laptop and it was delivered the next working day. This same day is the day the buyer left good feedback.

I sent multiple requests to PayPal asking for explanations as to why they have closed my account and why they are withholding my funds to which they have no legal right to hold. Their terms and conditions don't trump law, I have a tracking reference which clearly shows the item as being delivered to the buyers address, the buyer has not raised any disputes, I provided my passport, driving license, proof of address and proof of purchase/receipt to PayPal which was all accepted by their systems and my account limitations were lifted until 24 hours later I get the email notification stating they've decided to indefinitely close my account.

I don't see how I'm wasting my time because at the end of the day if this goes to a hearing in court I can prove exactly where the laptop came from, how it was purchased, why it was sold, who it was sold too, when it was delivered, proof of it being delivered and so far over 2 months of the buyer having no issues/complaints.

The thing is their main counter/arguing point is that Whittaker House apparently conducts no business for PayPal which is obviously false as that is where they are registered on Companies House in the UK. Evidently this is an attempt at misleading the court and what seems to be a purposeful attempt at misrepresenting themselves.

 

[hopitt]

First sale for a high value item. PayPal are suspicious and holding your money pending investigation. They can do this - it's all detailed in the Seller T&C.

A court case will cost you far more than the value of the item.

A small claims court isn't going to cost me anymore than the £70 I've already spent setting up the claim.

 

[fisicx]

Except PayPal will contest and you will end up paying a lot more. You can win against PayPal - it just takes a long time to do so.

The Whittaker house address is simple to enable UK registration. All their business is transacted outside the UK. If you want to make a claim against PayPal you need to make the claim against PayPal (Europe) S.à r.l. et Cie, S.C.A.

It's all detailed in the user agreement: https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full?locale.x=en_GB

Because this company is outside the UK the small claims court doesn't apply.

 

[hopitt]

Except PayPal will contest and you will end up paying a lot more. You can win against PayPal - it just takes a long time to do so.

The Whittaker house address is simple to enable UK registration. All their business is transacted outside the UK. If you want to make a claim against PayPal you need to make the claim against PayPal (Europe) S.à r.l. et Cie, S.C.A.

It's all detailed in the user agreement:

Because this company is outside the UK the small claims court doesn't apply.

That is who I have made the claim against. I can't add any screenshots or images because of the 30 post rule which is quite frustrating.

Defendant Details
Type of Defendant
Organisation
Organisation Name
PayPal (Europe) S.à r.l. et Cie, S.C.A.
Address
Whittaker House
2 Whittaker Avenue
RICHMOND
Surrey
Postcode
TW9 1EH

 

[fisicx]

That is not the address for PayPal (Europe).

The address you need is: 22-24 Boulevard Royal, 2449 Luxembourg

 

[hopitt]

That is not the address for PayPal (Europe).

The address you need is: 22-24 Boulevard Royal, 2449 Luxembourg

So effectively taking PayPal to court in the UK is impossible even though they conduct business in the UK?

 

[fisicx]

So effectively taking PayPal to court in the UK is impossible even though they conduct business in the UK?

They don't conduct business in the UK. All they have done is registered a business in the UK.

You can take them to court in the UK. But you have to serve the papers to the Luxembourg address.

 

[Mr D]

So effectively taking PayPal to court in the UK is impossible even though they conduct business in the UK?

You conducted business with PayPal Europe at their luxe address.

 

[Darren_Ssc]

So effectively taking PayPal to court in the UK is impossible even though they conduct business in the UK?

It is possible but not via MCL. The costs would far outweigh any gains.
You have a simple choice when dealing with such companies, play or don't play. You don't get to argue the terms.

 

[Aniela]

A small claims court isn't going to cost me anymore than the £70 I've already spent setting up the claim.

That's not 100% accurate. If it proceeds to go to a hearing, you then have to pay the small claims hearing fee.

In regards to your full explanation of what happened; you're 100% wasting your time, Paypals time and the small claims courts time. You've agreed to a terms of service, which allows them to do this.

Is it annoying? Yes. But it's nothing more than that.

Them withholding your money is perfectly legal. If you go through the terms and conditions/agreements you agreed to when signing up with them, you agreed to it. You say "their terms and conditions don't trump law" - What law are you talking about, or are you just making up potential laws?

The other side of this is you don't know why Paypal limited your access. Because you don't know that, you also can't go discussing what laws/rules they've broken. The reasoning changes things.

There's a possibility that your Paypal account was limited because their system is flagging potential fraudulent behaviour or money laundering behaviour for example. In that instance, they have every right to withhold funds, block access and not tell you what or why they're doing that. In fact, they have a legal responsibility to do that, in that instance.

The whole thing of 'the buyer left good feedback and tracking shows it was delivered' is irrelevant if your details are being linked to money laundering. You could very well be selling stolen goods. The buyer getting the item and proof of postage doesn't automatically mean it's a valid and good sale to Paypal.

 

[The Byre]

That is not the address for PayPal (Europe).

The address you need is: 22-24 Boulevard Royal, 2449 Luxembourg

No! Absolutely not. Not under consumer law. Not under contract law and not even under their own terms and conditions!

The relevant paragraph in their latest T&Cs (doesn't ANYBODY read T&Cs anymore???) states very clearly -

Governing law
This user agreement and the relationship between us is governed by the laws of England and Wales. This does not affect your mandatory rights under the laws of the country in which you reside, such as your rights as a consumer.

If you bring a claim against us in court, you submit to the non-exclusive jurisdiction of the courts of England and Wales. This means that if you were able to bring a claim arising from this user agreement against us in court, for example, an acceptable court would be a court located in England or Wales, but if the law allows you to do so, you can bring the claim in the court of another country instead, such as the country in which you reside.

Good luck to the OP - he has (assuming that which he has written is the full and complete truth) an excellent case and if it happened to me, it would not be the small claims court that I would be using, but I would go the whole hog and hit them with the kitchen sink - and a decent legal team!

 

[fisicx]

@The Byre - yes I agree with all of that. But the address you need to serve the papers to is the one in Luxembourg. That’s what it says on the User Agreement page for the UK.

 

[fisicx]

I've given you the relevant paragraph from their T&Cs.

Yes, but the agreement is with PayPal (Europe) not anything registered in the UK. You have to write to the address in Luxembourg if you want to take legal action.

 

[billybob99]

This isn't even anything to sue PayPal about - you sold a high value item for the very first time in your life, funds are put on hold.

This is nothing new, had it happen to me years and years ago.

 

[Mr D]

@The Byre - yes I agree with all of that. But the address you need to serve the papers to is the one in Luxembourg. That’s what it says on the User Agreement page for the UK.

So at the moment no court action has been started because no papers have been served on the company at its registered office for the transaction?

 

[billybob99]

Has the OP tried contacting the FCA > Although PayPal isn’t based in the UK, like a number of organisations with a large number of UK customers, it’s volunteered to be covered by our service – and we've covered complaints about them since 2 July 2007.

 

[The Byre]

This is contract law 101 - where are we? i.e. what is the governing jurisdiction?

Answer - "This means that if you were able to bring a claim arising from this user agreement against us in court, for example, an acceptable court would be a court located in England or Wales,"

In order to fulfil their own T&Cs, they must provide a trading address in E&W - which they most fulsomely do indeed do!

 

[Aniela]

Are you really that stupid? Or can't read?

He's saying the address in Luxembourg is not the correct address - according to their terms and conditions it needs to be England or Wales.

That's it. The OP is clear where the address needs to be and I'm sure he can find it himself.

So again, he's answering without answering. The OP needs help finding the right address. All The Byre has essentially said is "They will have an address"

 

[jimbof]

I sold a gaming laptop, the laptop was delivered and received by the buyer within 3 days of them purchasing and me receiving the money. eBay initially put a 21 day hold but then released the money 24 hours after delivery had been confirmed by the courier and the buyer leaving positive feedback.

It's now been 2 months since this date and the buyer is still happy with the item, no claims/chargebacks have been opened.

PayPal suspended my account and said that they no longer would be able to do business with me or no longer wanted to do business with me and that my funds could be held for up to 180 days.

I should also add that eBay actually put a hold on the initial buyer to begin with to verify that the buyer themselves had actually paid for the item and I was informed by eBay not to dispatch until they had confirmed this, 24 hours later it was confirmed and I dispatched the laptop and it was delivered the next working day. This same day is the day the buyer left good feedback.

I sent multiple requests to PayPal asking for explanations as to why they have closed my account and why they are withholding my funds to which they have no legal right to hold. Their terms and conditions don't trump law, I have a tracking reference which clearly shows the item as being delivered to the buyers address, the buyer has not raised any disputes, I provided my passport, driving license, proof of address and proof of purchase/receipt to PayPal which was all accepted by their systems and my account limitations were lifted until 24 hours later I get the email notification stating they've decided to indefinitely close my account.

Out of interest, how courteous were your comms with them?

Looking from the outside in, at a guess you got annoyed with them thinking you were in the right (you may even have been morally) because this large amount of money wasn't being made available to you, the front line customer service bods have kept nodding and answering you while in the background you got escalated to the "too much trouble as a customer" team, who've booted you out and now will slavishly follow their processes, which are designed to keep the funds for the duration of Paypal's liabilities under their guarantees to buyers. All of which will be stuff you agreed to in the Ts and Cs (the 180 days hasn't lapsed and they haven't not paid you yet... so not exactly sure what you think they are in breech of).

A family member just had something a bit like this happen on the high street with his bank. Bank wouldn't let him withdraw a couple of grand cash for whatever reason, which of course he had every right to do (but probably didn't have something important like his ID...), started getting a bit leery in the branch and a few days later a letter turns up telling him his business isn't wanted account closed blah blah blah.

Once things go "letter of contract" you find all kinds of stuff in there you didn't realise you signed up for which need a liberal coating of lube...

 

[UKSBD]

Just because the jurisdiction is in one country does that mean the address where to write to or serve papers to, has to be in the country too?

 

[UKSBD]

following on from last post

6.6
(1) The claim form must be served within the jurisdiction except where rule 6.7(2), 6.7(3) or

both 6.7(2 ) and 3 appear to show that the papers should be served at the Luxembourg address as per what their T and C's say.
source - https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part06#6.6

Assuming that's also their solicitors address which this appears to say it is - https://solicitors.lawsociety.org.uk/office/548213/paypal-europe-s-a-r-l-et-cie-s-c-a-

 

[The Byre]

This is the address the OP knew already and is their registered address for matters legal -

PayPal
Whittaker House
2 Whittaker Avenue
Richmond
TW9 1EH