Suspended for gross misconduct

[Sean23]

Hello! Need some advice if anyone can help be appreciated! So currently suspended for gross mis-conduct for not following a procedure which I wasn’t even aware was a procedure as had no training relating to it. Anyways, I clocked myself into work @23 via the computer instead of @2 as must’ve mid-clicked was very ill this day with evidence to prove this.

However during investigation the evidence wasn’t analysed properly and when he said you clocked in @Eleven I assumed ‘11’ and said I must’ve misclicked and intended to put ‘1’ as this was my intended time to come in that day.. Trying to make sense of it all at the time as to why I’d type in ‘11’ long story short he went onto agree with me.. Not correcting at this point it’s @23 so he asked questions as to why would you clock yourself in @1 if you wasn’t in store till 2. So the whole investigation went forward with as to why I would clock myself in @1. However if he corrected me and said @23 with the evidence sat in front of him I could of said clearly I put @23 instead of @2 easy mid-click...

Can they re-investigate me or go by this? I didn’t realise till I got home cleared my head and then realised it says @23 on the paperwork.

They’ve basically screwed up this investigation... that I could potentially be losing my job for this week!

Alongside this when I reached work all the evidence and CCTV was left on the desk with no-one around, surely this should be locked away? If I felt I was guilty of anything I could of got rid of the evidence...

Alongside this my job role was posted up online a couple of weeks before this event, they was aware of the situation before the job role went up but haven't suspended me as of yet as was on parental leave.

All the answers I gave during investigation they further investigated getting more fact finding but some of the answers may not of matched up as I was trying to justify why I clocked in @1 so was trying to find out a reason.. All along I did intend to clock in @2 and if the individual said @23 I would of said this and the investigation would of taken a different route possibly in no further action.

Is it breach of data protection/confidentiality leaving all the evidence on a desk for anyone to view? Let alone disregard if I did do something wrong.

Feel I’ve done nothing wrong intentionally, they put it down to fraud but I didn’t gain anything additional hours by the end of the week! This was all just a mis type on keyboard now can loose my job :,( Just over five years at company with no wrong-doing, I never approved the amended timecard I merely put it on there to make someone aware that I was in that day as wasn’t usual senior manager in as was on holiday.

The written statement by the manager who flagged it up I feel is invalid. He asked me what time I started work when he saw me and I said ‘1ish’ he then proceeded to check timecards later in the day and saw it said @23 so he flagged it up.. Now if he was doing timecards surely he would ask for a more pacific time than @1ish.. that could mean 1:15, 1:30, 1:45... I told him I intended to get in at 1ish but my train was late and didn’t get in till 2..

So stressed that I’m going to loose my job! I wasn’t even aware I couldn’t put my own timecard on the system never received training about this... And I’ve only done it once in five years as my senior manager wasn’t in and I wanted whoever was doing timecards to be aware I was in as wasn’t scheduled hours.

What’s my chances of this being thrown out or re-investigated if they see that they did in-fact make out is was @11 and didn't correct me throughout.

Any responses I’d appreciate it as I’m not in a union so representing myself !

 

[fisicx]

I've read it twice and still confused.

Clocking in usually means using some sort of automated system they registers the time in and out.

You seem to be describing a self monitoring system where you enter the time into a computer. If this is the case why didn't you check before submitting (it's your responsibility to do so).

And there are times of 1, 2, 11 and 23 none of which make any sense. Are you saying you got to work at 2pm but entered 23 on the keypad (11pm) when you should have been at work at 1pm? And if you did arrive at 2pm why did you say 1ish?

 

[Sean23]

Hey, so I clocked in @23:00PM via the computer however suppose to do this manually but I added it on the system. However didn’t arrive at work till 2:00AM (During the night) So Miss-typed 23 instead of 2. So my company thinks I’m trying to fraud hours however both statements said I got to work at ‘1ish’ so surely if I was trying to fraud hours I would of told them both I got in at 23:00PM Hope this makes sense

 

[Sean23]

However the individual investigating said I clocked in @Eleven so I thought ‘11’.. He should have corrected me and said @23 so the investigation went the wrong way, understand where I’m coming from?

 

[Mr D]

However the individual investigating said I clocked in @Eleven so I thought ‘11’.. He should have corrected me and said @23 so the investigation went the wrong way, understand where I’m coming from?

Yeah, I'd say 11 too.
Don't know anyone outside the military that would use the term 23 and they'd be precise, 23 hundred hours.

If he knew he meant 11 at night and you thought he meant 11 day is that his fault? Or yours?

 

[Sean23]

Maybe further explaining.. The evidence (On paper) Says @23! So if he tells me Eleven and I say maybe I’ve miss-typed and put a double ‘1’ why wouldn’t he correct me and say @23.. Therefor I couldn’t of put in double ‘1’.. Probably doesn’t make sense without the paper in front of you

 

[fisicx]

@Mr D is right, nothing makes sense here.

@23 is not 11 or even close to 2am.

Does the document say ‘@23’ - exactly like this? Because if it does it confuses everyone. It should say 11pm or 23:00. @23 is meaningless.

 

[Sean23]

23:00 so basically in short I’ve miss typed instead of putting 2:00.

 

[fisicx]

So why didn’t you correct it before saving?

Or report the error?

 

[Sean23]

So I handed over in the morning that I got in @2:00 however the managers statement says I said ‘1ish’ which At least confirms I didn’t say @23:00 so surely if I was trying to fraud them out of hours I wouldn’t of said this no? & I didn’t actually confirm the hours you have to right click a little clock to confirm the hours I never did so I wouldn’t of spotted my mistake

 

[Mr D]

So I handed over in the morning that I got in @2:00 however the managers statement says I said ‘1ish’ which At least confirms I didn’t say @23:00 so surely if I was trying to fraud them out of hours I wouldn’t of said this no? & I didn’t actually confirm the hours you have to right click a little clock to confirm the hours I never did so I wouldn’t of spotted my mistake

And if you were to try and defraud them, you'd presumably also not click a little clock?

It comes across badly, though to be honest the time keeping method appears to be badly designed.

 

[Sean23]

It is and potentially can be dismissed this week just had a little boy with the misses, fair bit of stress don’t feel I’ve done anything knowingly wrong and if they said 11PM I would’ve said I’ve put ‘2’ instead of ‘23’ didn’t realise my mistake as I was really unwell and didn’t think to double check (Have proof I was ill re texts from that day I was pouring with sweat & vomiting) been working there over five years and never had any issues and get on well, perform well etc. But feel this can go south for me.. I never gained any additional hours from this mistake so really fingers crossing.. Does anyone know if they can re-investigate once one has already taken place?

 

[Sean23]

If anyone else reads this and can answer a question for me I’d appreciate it. The evidence for my investigation was left on a office table, door left latched open anyone could of seen this.. So witness statements involving my name, CCTV footage of myself etc. (This door is suppose to be kept locked if rooms unoccupied as confidential files in there) Just feel people would’ve been nosy and read the statements etc left on the table .. Is this something to bring up?

 

[JeffreyMills]

No.
Someone leaving it lying around is poor, but has no bearing on your case.
You need to stick to explaining that you rarely enter the time and you think you made a mistake.
You need to stop “blaming” the interviewer for not saying 23.
Proving that everyone else was at fault is not a defence for YOU being at fault

 

[Sean23]

Granted however if I was to be dismissed then they've breached confidentiality/data protection as leaving my personal stuff lying around for all to see?
The interviewer not analysing the evidence properly and not correcting a mistake does make a MASSIVE impact to the whole investigation, as he then proceeded to ask further questions due to the mistake he made asking as to why I would clock myself in at '1'...

End of the investigation he said, 'I whole heartedly agree that I don't believe this to be fraudulent in anyway, however you have lied to your senior manager and there's further questions/answers that need to be solved. Surely if he agrees he doesn't view it as fraudulent then why suspend me? I pose no risk to the business... Proving that others aren't following process and giving mis-leading evidence is my case, if he didn't make the mistake of saying '11' and I gave the true version of events that night having known the 'correct' evidence I may not of been suspended..

 

[Sean23]

I spoke with citizens advice today, they are in full agreeance that my details shouldn't of been left on a desk in an open office for anyone's viewing and gave me contact information for an employment tribunal based on the pictures I have to prove it was left on the desk.
With my job being posted online before I was suspended but the event took place I feel they've already made a pre-determined decision and this would also be unfair

 

[JeffreyMills]

Anyone can lodge a claim with a tribunal, the details from Citizens Advice, is referring you to ACAS which is the starting point.
You should certainly speak to ACAS for advice around whether procedurally the interviewer was at fault, the whole investigation should be restarted, or the data breach (which you have not indicated has caused you any detriment) has any real bearing on the process you are in. I imagine they will not agree that the process is unfair.
The correct recourse for a data breach is the Information Commissioner’s Office.

 

[JeffreyMills]

So, some time after 2 your manager asked you what time you started. You said 1ish. Or that you meant to get in at 1 but the train was late so you got in at 2. And when your time card was checked you had put 23/11.

When interviewed and asked why you said you started at eleven, you were confused by the question even though you had that paperwork which said 23.

What time were you supposed to start?

 

[Sean23]

I appreciate the advice, obviously I'm somewhat clueless around this only using the internet and asking for the advice. I didn't have a exact start time wasn't even due in turned up during the night to support as my other manager messaged me, then the morning manager asked what time I got in which apparently I responded with '1ish' is what it says in his statement. However I got in at 2AM. But it does atleast clear up that I didn't respond with 11PM, if I in anyway was trying to fraud hours that say I would've responded saying 11PM surely they must see it this way. But only time will tell was suppose to have the meeting Wednesday but they postponed it due to further fact finding, then was suppose to be on Friday but now they've asked for it to be on the Saturday. Ten days is such a long time to wait stressing as to whether you have a job or not. Leaving the evidence on the table just wasn't best impressed as anyone could have viewed it and potentially did, then the gossiping begins was just concerned that's all. I have got all my fingers crossed that they see it as a mis-understanding and jut going to get in with the right attitude rather than accusing them back of xyz. Will update the outcome, struggling to sleep and keep my mind off it really sucks want it over and done with

 

[Sean23]

And just to summarise I was hoping to get in at 1:00AM however didn't reach the store till 2:00AM, this was due to train being late however I had no pacific start time. I quickly logged onto the computer and put '23:00PM' - 7:00AM' as the time I had worked however never right clicked and approved it, only put it there so the dayshift manager was aware that I came in and the time. However, I've obviously accidently pressed '23' instead of '2' and because I was very unwell sweating to death and vomiting I obviously didn't even process this as didn't pay much attention just clicked enter (evidence shown to prove I was sick), shut down the computer and headed downstairs. After that in the morning the dayshift manager was surprised to see me in and asked what time I got in, with my response apparently being '1ish' then when he checked timecards later on in the day saw it say '23:00PM' instead of texting/calling to confirm what hours I did that night he just flagged it up as fraud to my senior manager. Potentially to gain brownie points... Now I worked the rest of the week, then went on four weeks shared parental leave, upon my return that day I received a letter in the post inviting me to an investigation meeting. Then it went from there really... All my defence can be at this point is clearly a mistake, if I was intending to fraud hours my response to the dayshift manager would have been 11PM. Knowing full well he is signing off my timecard, they may also try discipline me for clocking myself in via the system rather than manually. My defence on this is that not received any training regarding this and I've not manually clocked in for over a year as my senior manager does it all himself and has never prompted me too..

 

[Sean23]

I never saw the evidence of the clocking at this point, was distressed during the investigation didn't even think to ask for it. So all I thought was that I've typed in '11' so I said I intended to come in @1:00AM that must be the reason and that I double clicked '1'... Now I havent been corrected at this point he just went on to agree with me, then kept asking why would I clock in @1:00AM if I wasn't in till 2:00AM. I was just trying to find reasoning and said I must've done it as I had intention to come in @1:00AM.. Then loads of questions past that point asking why I would clocking @1:00AM if I didn't come into the building till @2:00AM...

Now if I was corrected, I could have told him clearly I've intended to clocking @2:00AM and accidently hit the '3' clocking myself in for @23:00PM, then go on to say clearly I had no intention of frauding extra worked hours or I would have handed over in the morning that I started @11PM.
Possibly wouldn't of been suspended at this point, as its a clear mistake to make and definitely wouldn't be seen as gross-misconduct judging by the evidence. I'm hoping the new manager reviewing the case Saturday see's it this way. The other manager was in full agreeance before suspended me he didn't see it as fraudulent... So really hoping if this is the case then surely il be keeping my job! Hated applying for new jobs today, enjoy the one I'm currently in so hoping they see my point To everyone appreciate all the feedback, as did change my defence letter after seeing responses, have a good week! Regards

 

[Mr D]

And just to summarise I was hoping to get in at 1:00AM however didn't reach the store till 2:00AM, this was due to train being late however I had no pacific start time. I quickly logged onto the computer and put '23:00PM' - 7:00AM' as the time I had worked however never right clicked and approved it, only put it there so the dayshift manager was aware that I came in and the time. However, I've obviously accidently pressed '23' instead of '2' and because I was very unwell sweating to death and vomiting I obviously didn't even process this as didn't pay much attention just clicked enter (evidence shown to prove I was sick), shut down the computer and headed downstairs. After that in the morning the dayshift manager was surprised to see me in and asked what time I got in, with my response apparently being '1ish' then when he checked timecards later on in the day saw it say '23:00PM' instead of texting/calling to confirm what hours I did that night he just flagged it up as fraud to my senior manager. Potentially to gain brownie points... Now I worked the rest of the week, then went on four weeks shared parental leave, upon my return that day I received a letter in the post inviting me to an investigation meeting. Then it went from there really... All my defence can be at this point is clearly a mistake, if I was intending to fraud hours my response to the dayshift manager would have been 11PM. Knowing full well he is signing off my timecard, they may also try discipline me for clocking myself in via the system rather than manually. My defence on this is that not received any training regarding this and I've not manually clocked in for over a year as my senior manager does it all himself and has never prompted me too..

Could be there was procedure to follow when suspicion of problem in times.

Have worked in some places where on certain issues management had zero leeway.

 

[Sean23]

Do you mean they had no choice other than to suspend me? Due to pending investigation or have I just mis-read the response. apologies

 

[fisicx]

I'm still very confused about the whole thing.

If you did clock in at 2am why did you tell the manager you arrived at 1ish? This seems to be at the centre of their concerns. They could be concerned that you have been clocking in at a different time to your arrival time for months and are now investigating. And you have admitted you were not clicking the clock icon to check your time entries which is why the error has occurred. All of your good work in the last 5 years can be undone in seconds if they can prove fraud.

 

[Mr D]

Do you mean they had no choice other than to suspend me? Due to pending investigation or have I just mis-read the response. apologies

Yes. Could be procedure.

 

[JeffreyMills]

before the hearing takes place you should receive their evidence- paperwork, statements etc.
The hearing manager does not need to hear chapter and verse about what you might have done or what might have happened if...
They are looking at the facts. The facts are
- you came in at short notice as requested by a manager, you were not “scheduled” to be on.
- you came in at short notice despite being ill, to help out
-you logged a start time, which normally the manager would do, but they were not there. It’s not what you normally do and you didn’t hit approve
- when asked, you said you started 1ish
- when asked why you put eleven, you weren’t sure and thought you must have hit 1
-actually you hit 23
- you didn’t hit “approve” it’s an honest mistake and you were not attempting to defraud the company
- it will never happen again

That’s it
Forget about “what if”

 

[obscure]

What Jeffery said. Keep it simple and clear and factual.

 

[ComPropSolicitor]

What Jeffery said. Keep it simple and clear and factual.

This is the best advice so far. Your posts read like something put together by woody from Toystory.

pick a legitimate story and stick to it.

I am concerned that they have picked up on this because they think you have done it before. Or, certainly have picked up on something else that they may not be happy with as logic seems to suggest that a one-off and an explanation would mean keeping a closer eye on what you were doing as opposed to what's happening here.

 

[Sean23]

Its definitely a one-off it was only flagged due to it saying 23:00 but I told the dayshift manager I got in @1ish. So he flagged it as fraudulently trying to claim extra worked hours. Anyways, I received my confirmation of suspension today, however I was suspended on the 2nd Octover and they dated it 4th September (Along with wrong time and location) with the letter to be sent out on the 5th September. Now, correct me if im wrong with this one aswell… The investigator has no witness statements, CCTV or even investigated me at this point but again a pre-determined decision made to suspend me. So the investigator at this point doesn't know any information other than he has clocked in @23:00 and the manager who flagged it said I told him I came in @1ish.. So without even investigating me asking for further facts etc the investigator has decided to suspend me. Only reason they didn't suspend me on the 4th Sept is because I was on shared parental leave at this point. Again, ive kept my story nice and simple, this is for the disciplinary meeting. However the pre-determined decision to suspend me and posting my job up online just seems shady

 

[JeffreyMills]

Suspension is a neutral act. If serious wrongdoing is suspected (which it was- fraud) it is in your best interests and theirs that you are not present at work.
And you don’t know that they have given your job to anyone else. They advertised it - so what? Maybe they need more staff.

 

[Sean23]

But you can’t pre-determine serious wrongdoing has occurred without evidence/investigation only hearsay. Advertising your job would class as unfair dismissal if I was to loose my job as il state they made a decision before concluding.

 

[JeffreyMills]

They have determined serious wrongdoing may have occurred- and suspended whilst they investigate. That is entirely correct.

They have advertised your job- they have not given it to anyone.

Did you speak to ACAS at all? It would be a better use of time than developing new “theories” on what might or might not happen or have happened or what others might be doing

 

[Mr D]

However the pre-determined decision to suspend me and posting my job up online just seems shady

On one occasion a workmate saw his job advertised online and was most annoyed. But he kept quiet and didn't let on he'd seen it.
It was only once someone had been offered the job that the news was broken to him.

He'd been promoted.

Not every decision by management has to be to the detriment of staff.

 

[Sean23]

If you’re being investigated for gross-misconduct and can be potentially losing your job. Your job title, role and location is advertised online then this would mean your employer has made a pre-determined decision to dismiss you.

Lots of cases won because of this ‘unfair dismissal’ they had no reason to post my job online as there is only one position for my role. So what are they advertising it for? It would be classed as starting the recruitment process before a disciplinary outcome has been made.

So Mr D you’re not funny and your point is irrelevant.

 

[Sean23]

Think your missing the point to this thread it was titled advice/help, I’m aware my employer can suspend me just didn’t know the rules regarding no evidence other than hearsay to do so. That’s the point of posting questions to get advice regarding the matter in which I have...

 

[Mr D]

If you’re being investigated for gross-misconduct and can be potentially losing your job. Your job title, role and location is advertised online then this would mean your employer has made a pre-determined decision to dismiss you.

Lots of cases won because of this ‘unfair dismissal’ they had no reason to post my job online as there is only one position for my role. So what are they advertising it for? It would be classed as starting the recruitment process before a disciplinary outcome has been made.

So Mr D you’re not funny and your point is irrelevant.

And I'm saying that sometimes things are done that you don't know about and are irrelevant to you at the time. Could be expanding, could be covering their bases in case they do dismiss you, could be planning something for a few months away.
Not every decision made by management is going to be seeking to mess with you.
Was not trying to be funny.

 

[Mr D]

Think your missing the point to this thread it was titled advice/help, I’m aware my employer can suspend me just didn’t know the rules regarding no evidence other than hearsay to do so. That’s the point of posting questions to get advice regarding the matter in which I have...

Most suspensions will be due to hearsay, that's why investigations are done. So the person can be unsuspended and get back to work or removed.

 

[Sean23]

Just like to drop an update, managed to dodge dismissal this time round! Received a sanction in the form of a written warning that sticks with me for twelve months, just so pleased as they said it was a very close call but they believed the investigation to be unfair in some instances. So saved me there, thanks everyone who gave advice and prevented me trying to 'attack' them back as probably would've lost my job!