suing for libel for an online review

[blueboy]

Last year I had a bad experience with my accountant, so decided to leave and wrote a negative review which was posted on a few eview websites as well as this one. The review has since been deleted by ukbf, and even my later thread asking why the original review was deleted has now also been deleted! So this thread will probably also disappear, but hopefully before then i can get some advice...

The review on qype can be found by googling <removed by moderator>. It made some specific claims about what they did wrong, and i have the email trails to prove what i said is correct. I got an email from the MD today saying if i did not take down the review they would be suing me for 'defamation'. I've since updated the review to remove any specific claims, leaving just my opinion of them.

Are they likely to go ahead with their threat, do they have much chance of winning? It looks like they've already gone to some trouble to get my reviews deleted (other review websites happily take down negative reviews on request, qype doesn't) It may be having an impact on their business, so perhaps they'll go to any length to get this review deleted?

 

Take them down and move on.

If you want a whole load of stress and grief then leave them on.

Just my £0.02

 

[OldWelshGuy]

I have copied and edit your thread, into the feedback area, if you wish to continue the discussion about what happned to your previous threads, that is the area to do it http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=304745

I have also deleted your reference to enable your post on qype to be found as that isn't how things work here. You are discussing the position not promoting the bad review.

IOf you have any issues with this please post them in the feedback thread and not this one

Ok so to answer your question, the choice is yours, but be VERY careful of stating that you have only posted fact, because you can be sued for editorial inference. e.g i wouldn't recommend you use xyz for the following reasons
fact
fact
fact
fact
fact
---------------------

Even if you post the above and the facts are fact, (as in there is absolutely no possiblity that there is ANY opinion in there whatsoever, or indeed any selective editing of content etc) then you can still be liable for damages. as you are not allowed to malisciously damage the reputation of another.

 

[Billmccallum]

some definitions first:

Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, or traducement—is the communication of a false statement that harms the reputation

A libel is a malicious, false statement in written media, a broadcast, or otherwise published words

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

What do I have to prove for my claim to be successful?

To bring a successful defamation action you (the "plaintiff") will need to establish the following elements:

• The statement must have been defamatory of you.
• The statement must have been communicated to one or more people – in other words, there must have been "publication".

source: http://www.howtolaw.co.nz/bring-an-action-in-defamation-xidp392173.html

if what you wrote was true, then it would seem to be difficult for them to succeed.

 

[blueboy]

ok thanks for the advice. I guess that explains why there were no other reviews for that company - genuine negative reviews get taken down and there are no positive ones!

If i edit down the review to just say 'i wasn't happy with their service' and nothing else then am i still leaving myself open?

 

[blueboy]

if what you wrote was true, then it would seem to be difficult for them to succeed.

I agree, but really if it goes to court then we've both lost a lot of time and money, so we've both lost. Just wondering if there is much precedent for this happening, what kind of money we're talking about in fees etc to defend an online review.

 

then you can still be liable for damages. as you are not allowed to malisciously damage the reputation of another.

Unless you are an MP then you are fair game.

 

I agree, but really if it goes to court then we've both lost a lot of time and money, so we've both lost. Just wondering if there is much precedent for this happening, what kind of money we're talking about in fees etc to defend an online review.

The most expensive area of the law.:|

 

From personal experience Sir/Madam, unless you have a machine which prints £20 notes forget all about going to court.

It'll drag on and on. Regardless of who's right and who's wrong strange things happen on the way to court (and in court).

If you have the funds and can spend half a week for the next three months on legal correspondence then go for it.

If not then do a tactical withdrawal.

The damage already seems to have been done so your posts have had at least some of the affect you desired.

 

[blueboy]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I've got nothing to gain by leaving the review up there but it seems a shame this company has been going for years and will carry on going because of a lack of online reviews. I found a 2 page thread on ukbf from last december with potent clients asking if this accountant is any good or not, no one with experience stepped forward with an opinion.

Now that i've been sent this email saying 'We are requesting that you remove this review within 7 days from the date of this email to prevent legal action against you.', does that mean i'm in the clear if i do take down the review, or could they go ahead and sue anyway?

 

[The Resolver]

The growth in consumer reviews has brought great benefit to the Internet. But it is being compromised by, on the one hand, the growth in fake and grossly unfair reviews and, on the other, threats of defamation litigation. This was the subject of my presentation at the Internet Governance Forum in Baku last November (http://wsms1.intgovforum.org/content/no174-online-dispute-resolution-justice-net)

In that context I do not think the answer is to not post a genuine review. But clearly care has to be taken. Blueboy suggests just posting opinion but that would be a mistake and morevdangerous. Far safer to post incontrovertible facts eg " I did not hear in response for 6 weeks despite 4 written requests for an update" or " I was told by letter that they would write to HMRC on my behalf but failed to do so leading to ....". Etc etc.

Have you presented a complaint to the ICAEW ( www.icaew.com) ? Saying " I filed a complaint with the ICAEW and they ruled that x&Co had failed to comply with professional standards". Such would be safe and informative for the public.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

they have made a legally binding offer to you and that is
YOU take down the material, THEY agree not to proceed with any legal action. It is that clear (assuming you ahve pasted verbatim what they have stated in the letter)

 

[cjd]

They don't want to spend time, money and grief on legal action any more than you do. They just want the content removed so it can no longer damage them.

You've had your say, caused them some pain - time to move on and get focused back on your own business.

 

[The Resolver]

If the email is marked "without prejudice and subject to contract' then you could not rely on such an emai lshould they sue. Of course the email as a whole could simply refer in context to an application for an injunction but may not refer to a claim for damage they identify to have suffered from.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

CJD sums it up nicely, there really should be no other thought line. get it down, tell them it is down, move on!

 

[blueboy]

More great advice from everyone, all very quick. I love this forum!

The quote is verbatim and there was nothing on the email about 'without prejudice / subject to contract' so it looks like i'm in the clear.

Have you presented a complaint to the ICAEW ? Saying " I filed a complaint with the ICAEW and they ruled that x&Co had failed to comply with professional standards". Such would be safe and informative for the public.

If you post incontrovertible facts then surely you still need to go to court and spend the time and money proving thats the case, where as with opinion's like 'i was unhappy, i wont go into specifics' there's no case to answer and is therefore safer?

Or maybe then can sue just for giving anything less than 5/5 stars, since just giving a 1 star rating could be considered defamatory?!?

I spent a fair few days submitting my evidence to what i thought was their governing body, the ICPA. But it turned out the ICPA is more of a trade association that represents the accountant so naturally i didn't get very far. Not that i'm going to spend any more energy on this, but can you complain to the ICAEW even if the accountant isn't a member?

 

[davek17]

Hi Blueboy. I write loads of reviews and articles and run a decent blog. We aim to be edgy and opinionated (think Jeremy Clarkson, not BBC news) as that's what people want and we often get warnings from some huge brands, some more aggressive than others.

The tricks we've learnt are:

1. Don't be immediately pushed over by these people. No-one wants to go to court over these things. They should be pointing out what is specifically wrong with what you have written and you should work together to correct it. being given 7 days to remove content is also not fair, its often an over reaction and a sign they don't know what they should do either. They are not allowed to bully you into removing what you said either.

Ask them what they don't like, then put it right publicly.

2. Search for "So_youve_had_a_threatening_letter_FINAL". There's a good PDF on what to do that has helped us in the past.

3. When you write a blog or post, you are allowed to express your opinion. They are too. This conversation should be debated in the comments area and when we have done this with complaints it has worked for us and them. The era we work in now is one where failure is expected and it its about how the failure was put right. The internet and social is for everyone to express themselves and you have a right to do just that but they do too but in the right way.

4. Also go and check the company out on companies house. They might not have the money and might not be the size you think they are.

The caveat to all of this is that you have worded what you said properly. You can't just say, XXX is rubbish or person A is an idiot. You are however allowed to say your experience of XXX was poor. This leaves the door open to debate and actually gives XXX a golden opportunity to show everyone that you might have been wrong or slightly not right. How do you think WhatCar is able to say that the steering on an Audi is poor?

Unfortunately the world we live in today has been created to make solicitors rich (in my humble opinion) You can't sneeze in this apparently democratic society without someone bigger than you apparently allowing it, but this is changing.

Stand by what you say or don't say it, don't be bullied and offer a full communication channel if there's an issue. However if what you wrote, in your heart of hearts, is not acceptable then take it on the chin, remove it and move on.

That's my opinion!!

 

[blueboy]

On the one hand i don't think they've got the money to see it through to the bitter end (having been my accountants, they know i don't either...), but on the other hand i think a lot of their clients must be people who've found them on the net and been won over by a good sales pitch. Now that my review on qype shows up on google right next to their own website, i imagine its actually having a pretty sizeable affect on their signups, so they've certainly got the motivation to do what it takes to get rid of my review.

It won't be a matter of me just cleaning up my review, they want qype off the google results altogether. So far they've tried posting some positive reviews to counter my negative one, and even tried changing the company address/website on qype to confuse readers. they're getting desperate.

 

[mhall]

I have great personal experience of this. First, the only people that will win will be solicitors.

Secondly, it is very worrying to be accused of libel. BUT:

a) It is very costly for someone to sue you for libel, they certainly won't be able to do it on a no win no fee basis and even if they do, they will need to pay a massive insurance premium. For them to sue you they will need to be able to prove loss.

b) There are only two defences for libel - The truth, and what the solicitors call "fair comment". If you have told the truth it is not libellous. If your comments could be seen as "fair comment" based on the background to the situation, you will also be ok.

Personally I would think your man will go to a solicitor who will write a nasty letter (because that is what solicitors are paid to do) These letters are meant to scare you and the solicitor will continue to write them as he will continue to get paid. It is not in the solicitors interest to say to his client "just talk it over and move on)

On the other hand, I have never met an accountant who was willing to waste a penny, least of all on a solicitor.

Personally I would just say that you should agree to disagree and move on.

 

[blueboy]

Personally I would just say that you should agree to disagree and move on.

If I was just an individual I would go for that approach, but as I also have an online business they can sling mud at (they've already shown they have no problem writing fake reviews for their own business, so why not anonymous fake reviews for mine?) and they most probably will NOT move on until the review is removed, it would be best for my business to remove mine and hope other genuine customers post their views.

Really if there was more of a culture of clients reviewing firms then they couldn't go round threatening everyone with solicitors, and I wouldn't be in this situation. In hindsight I also made the mistake of identifying myself in the review, if it was anonymous/generic then the solicitor wouldn't know who to send their letter to!

 

[Bob]

I spent a fair few days submitting my evidence to what i thought was their governing body, the ICPA. But it turned out the ICPA is more of a trade association that represents the accountant so naturally i didn't get very far. Not that i'm going to spend any more energy on this, but can you complain to the ICAEW even if the accountant isn't a member?

ICPA is open to anyone with or without formal professional qualification. Applicants self certify that they are competent.
ICAEW and ACCA will only deal with complaints against their own members.
One of the reasons for ensuring that your accountant is professionally qualified

 

[zipster31]

Hi Blueboy. I write loads of reviews and articles and run a decent blog. We aim to be edgy and opinionated (think Jeremy Clarkson, not BBC news) as that's what people want and we often get warnings from some huge brands, some more aggressive than others.

The tricks we've learnt are:

1. Don't be immediately pushed over by these people. No-one wants to go to court over these things. They should be pointing out what is specifically wrong with what you have written and you should work together to correct it. being given 7 days to remove content is also not fair, its often an over reaction and a sign they don't know what they should do either. They are not allowed to bully you into removing what you said either.

Ask them what they don't like, then put it right publicly.

2. Search for "So_youve_had_a_threatening_letter_FINAL". There's a good PDF on what to do that has helped us in the past.

3. When you write a blog or post, you are allowed to express your opinion. They are too. This conversation should be debated in the comments area and when we have done this with complaints it has worked for us and them. The era we work in now is one where failure is expected and it its about how the failure was put right. The internet and social is for everyone to express themselves and you have a right to do just that but they do too but in the right way.

4. Also go and check the company out on companies house. They might not have the money and might not be the size you think they are.

The caveat to all of this is that you have worded what you said properly. You can't just say, XXX is rubbish or person A is an idiot. You are however allowed to say your experience of XXX was poor. This leaves the door open to debate and actually gives XXX a golden opportunity to show everyone that you might have been wrong or slightly not right. How do you think WhatCar is able to say that the steering on an Audi is poor?

Unfortunately the world we live in today has been created to make solicitors rich (in my humble opinion) You can't sneeze in this apparently democratic society without someone bigger than you apparently allowing it, but this is changing.

Stand by what you say or don't say it, don't be bullied and offer a full communication channel if there's an issue. However if what you wrote, in your heart of hearts, is not acceptable then take it on the chin, remove it and move on.

That's my opinion!!

I am glad to hear someone out there has the courage to do and say what is right. Do NOT be bullied, only state what is fact (you cannot be sued for libel if you can prove what you say) and write your reviews with a clean conscience. The whole point of writing a review is to share your experience and allow someone to make up their own mind whether or not to employ those services or buy that product. By succumbing to the bullying and fear tactics you are doing an injustice to those persons contemplating using those services.

 

[blueboy]

Sadly I've decided to remove my review and it seems the only other genuine review has been removed as well, most likely due to a similar threatening email. This leaves only the fake reviews posted up by the accountant themselves on these so called independent review sites.

 

[zipster31]

Sadly I've decided to remove my review and it seems the only other genuine review has been removed as well, most likely due to a similar threatening email. This leaves only the fake reviews posted up by the accountant themselves on these so called independent review sites.

I do understand you are intimidated and fearful of court action. But - how to you feel about removing your review? Was it the right thing to do? So long as you only state provable fact, taking you to court would be an expensive waste of their time. Do you not feel you have a responsibility to inform future clients of your bad experience and thus prevent them falling foul themselves? Turning a blind eye is a crime itself and only leads to further injustice. As for them mudslinging your own company, so be it. Stand firm, provide a good service, give them no reason to mudsling and then the only mudslinging they can do would most likely be false. When they are eventually found out, it will be in your favour. Never forget, "the truth will always out".

 

[blueboy]

them taking me to court would cost *me* a lot of time and money, which i would be only partially compensated for once i won. is it my responsibility to continually warn the public about every incompetent company i've ever dealt with? I don't think so, there's not enough time in the day for that.

The fact that the independent review sites themselves give in as soon as they receive a take down notice tells you something about how much you don't want to be in a libel lawsuit.

 

[simon field]

A rolling stone gathers no moss blueboy!

Moving on can't be beaten in these situations imho

Good luck.