Suggestions Sought

[Instabus]

Most are free but if the foreign travel agent can be convinced that for £7 per card he could generate more business, then it could be a winner.
"Book with Japan/Scotland travel and get a 'free' discount card for xxx number of tourist attractions'

Having discounts for any tourist attraction would help.

It's another possible angle to work on if it transpires that I can't sell the card but I would prefer to get the Japanese tour operator to sell our card as a £14 add on to their packages after buying it from us for £7.

 

[Instabus]

Well he got the advice.

This is a public business forum, people tend to not confine themselves to a narrow point if they feel that a core problem is not being addressed - if he thinks it not relevant, he can (he will) ignore it.

I was looking for advice on a specific point and that was how I could generate an income in the interim before I launch my card for sale.

I do appreciate the constructive points that almost all of you have put to me and I am not someone who is afraid of criticism and just wants to hear the praise.

But I didn't start this thread to receive a full appraisal of my business model because I haven't presented enough of the facts about it and people haven't taken enough time to study the facts and research the market before being equipped with the expertise to provide an accurate critique.
I wouldn't expect you to know all of the facts which is why requesting a full appraisal would have been wrong of me.

All I want is advice or suggestions on how I can monetise what I already have in the short term before my actual business model either succeeds or fails.

 

[Psl]

It's a good suggestion like many of yours have been however I don't agree on removing the accommodation from the tourism card considering it is something they are guaranteed to spend their money on every single day of their holiday.

We do have a corporate card planned for business tourists, which is a growing sub-sector but hadn't decided on how we would split the offerings up, if at all.

It is important to understand how a significant proportion of UK tourists behave. If they are domestic then they are often travelling by car/caravan/motorbike/bicycle and with their laptop/mobile and even their pets.

If we can get people to purchase the card before booking up all of their accommodation (which I think it was you who came up with a suggestion of a way to do that - sorry to the person it was if I am mixing you up) then it still has a solid place on our card.
But in reality, not everyone does book all of their accommodation in advance as they like to have the freedom to change their route along the way.

If I said to my wife we are going to Glasgow to see the Charles Rennie Mackintosh sites etc, she would say great, where are we staying?
If I said "Don't worry love we will get a hotel when we get there and we will get a discount as well!" I would be going on my own.

Very few people leave choosing accommodation to chance/ the last minute/ or when they get to their destination. And you certainly wouldn't get a family doing that either.
And families would/should be your target market as well.

Last year I paid £150ish for a discount card that gives me great discounts to theme parks and attractions around the UK for the whole family. I think 'her in'doors worked out we would save £600 just based on the number of previous trips to the theme parks we had done the previous year. Different figures to your card but same principle.

You need to fine tune your business model and then prove the model by selling the cards.

It's great to have a plan for the future of the business but you need a solid foundation to build on.

 

[Instabus]

How much have you invested in teh business so far? (not specific amount but high five figure, six figures etc..?) . I am just a bit surprised that you have invested a lot of money on this business (or at least resources) and you havent got any idea whether this works or not and you have now got yourself into this cashflow dilemma. Also, I am amazed you dont have some type of mobile app for this (or mobile enabled website) - absolutely essential.

I would love to see your website - PM me if you like.

So far, I've invested £25k of my money and £15k in loans plus I am about to sell off the last remaining asset of my company which is how I have been generating an income for the last 4 years - a Mercedes minibus.

I have been involved in tourism for 3 years so I do have first hand knowledge in this and I'm not going in blind.
It is a product that I have developed with research and an understanding in how a large percentage of tourists behave while travelling around the UK.

As I said before, the App will come but without one does not render this product useless.
The App will simply tie things together well and make it easier to use for people who use smart phones.

The cashflow situation has occurred due to delays in our launch.
Originally we were set for launching last summer but there were a few setbacks that delayed it and now we have to wait for the tourists to arrive in the spring.

 

[Paul_Rosser]

May be a stupid question but what have you spent £40k on ?

 

[Instabus]

Nothing wrong with walking the hound.

The hotels may seem a great deal, but as PSL (I think) said most people book these in advance, so unless you spend a lot on marketing people won't be aware of your card prior to booking.

Also a lot of hotels offer their rooms as discounted rates via expedia etc. so if yours are doing this your customers may find they can book cheaper via one of these sites, rather than using your card.

Are the hotels letting people who book online with them use their card at this time ? Or do they have to turn up and use it ? Also if the hotel is doing a deal with discounted rooms does the card work against that, or is it only at full price (a common trick with hotel discounts, free days etc).

Your comments on tastecards cash in bank don't really matter as they have been running for a number of years and in year one had 64k in the bank, year two 25k, year three 72k, year four 489k.

So for the first few years at least they didn't make much (if any) profit and it was only when they relaunced as tastecard (from taste london) in 2010 their cash went up, it's also possible of course this was via investors.

Or if we can encourage the tour operators to sell our card to the people as they are buying their holiday then we can sell them in advance without doing any marketing. At 100% markup for them I'm sure we can.
And this is just until our SEO investment takes effect when at which point people will find us and buy the card directly before booking their accommodation.

You are correct to mention the hotel booking sites and they will be competition, although we will be able to still take a share of this market with similar priced accommodation once the discount is applied.

Yes the hotels will allow the card to be used when someone is booking online, providing they have a valid card at the time they arrive.
In order to know about our card, they will need to have heard about it and found the business on our website so to the business it doesn't really matter if they have a valid card or not, as they have found out about them via their advert on our site.

The hotel discounts are off their rack rate so can't be used in conjunction with other deals or is booked through a booking site.

I think my comparisons to TasteCard are worth mentioning because you were wondering if the concept of paying up front for discounts would work, and even if it took them a few years, they proved the concept is one that works.
Our entire marketing strategy is different from theirs as we are using the 3rd party retailers which they don't.
This means that we don't need to throw so much at marketing as it is being done by the selling businesses.

 

[Instabus]

If I had a new product, my first form of market research would be to see if it sold. I would go out personally and see how many I could sell to complete strangers. Then if I proved it sold I would be shouting about how many I had personally sold. There doesn't seem to be much shouting here about how many are sold.

Great ideas, being shortlisted for awards and having passion is great but it doesn't prove anything.

I suspect there is only one point which is being missed.......

Clearly none or very few have been sold. Classic biz mistake, good/great product and no one to sell it!

Do you both not agree that it would be impossible to sell the cards before having discounts being offered by the businesses?

We are approaching the point where it can be sold and only then will we know if... it can be sold!

 

[Psl]

Do you both not agree that it would be impossible to sell the cards before having discounts being offered by the businesses?

We are approaching the point where it can be sold and only then will we know if... it can be sold!

Of course, but you are looking for £20k so why not go out and sell some cards if everything is ready to go?

 

[Instabus]

Yep, although you don't actually need anyone when you have a product you are passionate about.....you have yourself.

I was asked to invest in a business last year and although I believed in it and the company had proved it sold (to some degree), I wanted to be sure so before I invested I put a bag with product over my shoulder, went out on to the streets of London (and trust me I am no door to door salesman) and went into several small retailers as a salesperson.

Luckily the response was sufficient and I sold the stock I had, so I invested.

With a product that sells at £14 and has 600 business offers I am shocked that with all the work and effort thats gone into it, no one has actually gone out and seen if they can sell it.

I remember years ago, I came across a particular product that seemed as good as sliced bread. My partner wanted to buy a container load of it. As much as I loved it, I disagreed. He got the hump and went ahead and bought it with his own money. I went out and tried to sell it. Everyone loved it but nobody bought it. He got lumbered with £40k's of product he had to literally burn !

This is another option on the table, that instead of waiting until spring when the tourists arrive, we try and sell our card to locals for around £10 and maybe extend the validity period to 4 or 6 months.

I would prefer to wait until we have 1,000 businesses on board in March and sell it for the full price at the market it was intended for - tourists.

As I keep saying though, the purpose of this thread was to suggest ways to make money with what I currently have before the card launches, not to dissect my business model and mindset.

 

[Instabus]

That's the best way to see if something sells.


40K up in smoke - ouch!

I am sure it can be sold.

OP, here's an idea.

Get some POS material put together and go around all the newsagents, sandwich shops, independent retailers and offer them £7 per sale on each card. Leave them 20 cards a piece and and go back a week later to see how many have sold. If you can take £140 of them even better, because when they sell the retailers should be back onto you, but you must service them each week and make sure there is a stock of cards in the shop.

You are full of good suggestions!
Again, this is fully incorporated in our model when it is ready for launch but they will only be in touristy areas and be primarily selling them to tourists.

It just isn't ready to sell yet to locals at the full price of £14, or at least I am not confident enough to focus resources in trying this currently.

 

[InternetMarketingPlatinum]

Well I'm not reading all that

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[DavidAshdown]

Do you both not agree that it would be impossible to sell the cards before having discounts being offered by the businesses?

We are approaching the point where it can be sold and only then will we know if... it can be sold!

Yes of course you need to have discounts. What I don't get is that you have over 600 businesses signed up so why can't you get enough discounts to trial a test card ? I'm sure especially at this time of year businesses would be only too keen to give offers and get people through their doors.

 

[DavidAshdown]

This is another option on the table, that instead of waiting until spring when the tourists arrive, we try and sell our card to locals for around £10 and maybe extend the validity period to 4 or 6 months.

I would prefer to wait until we have 1,000 businesses on board in March and sell it for the full price at the market it was intended for - tourists.

As I keep saying though, the purpose of this thread was to suggest ways to make money with what I currently have before the card launches, not to dissect my business model and mindset.

Well exactly and this is what I've been harping on about. Why on earth do you have to wait for full launch ? Surely you would be best off trailing it to see if it works on a small scale. If it does then you also get some money in.

I wouldn't dream of launching a business full on without proving it works first.

 

[DavidAshdown]

This is another option on the table, that instead of waiting until spring when the tourists arrive, we try and sell our card to locals for around £10 and maybe extend the validity period to 4 or 6 months.

I would prefer to wait until we have 1,000 businesses on board in March and sell it for the full price at the market it was intended for - tourists.

As I keep saying though, the purpose of this thread was to suggest ways to make money with what I currently have before the card launches, not to dissect my business model and mindset.

Nobody is trying to dissect your business model or mindset as I explained earlier. But if someone finds fault or doesn't believe in your idea you should take note and not take offence.

I much prefer to listen to criticism of an idea than have everyone pat me on the back and tell me what a great idea i've got if they don't really believe in it.

You should listen to the critics, and if you think they have not listened to you maybe you should consider whether you've explained yourself properly rather than jump down their throat.

After all, you are hoping that 1% of the market will listen to you !

 

[Instabus]

Just when you thought this thread had died...
Today I drove to Liverpool and back so couldn't finish off my replies to last night's posts, so here I am to continue a discussion that I hope you are not sick of! If you are, I understand but I'd still like some thoughts on my Crowdfunding idea.

Once again very good advice from PSL.

Forget the 80 million visitors and if I can get 1% of them and start at the bottom, see if there is a market and then build on it.

I can't forget about the 90m visitors because this is a product designed for and targeted at them! The local useage of the card is a secondary benefit for the domestic tourists to continue to use after their holiday.
The tourist aspect is my niché and without it then I am competing with many other discount products aimed at the general consumer market.

We don't disagree that people will want and use the card, it's the making them pay for it bit which may be the issue.

If I saw an advert in the local paper for 25% off somewhere I hadn't tried before then I would probably give it a spin, but would I fork out cash for a card which gives me discounts on places I haven't used, so have no idea if they are any good or not....then no.

But this is you speaking for you as at the risk of repeating myself, there ARE existing models where consumers DO pay up front for a discount card that gets them access to discounts at businesses they have never used.

I meant the cardholder would have to spend £100 in total to make the discount worth the cost of the card, which may seem quite small but some people go on holiday to scotland and don't spent that on coffee, resturants or anything else you have mentioned.

I'm not with you I'm afraid.
Perhaps it is in how I have explained how it works because this suggests you don't quite understand it.
The card, which currently has 600 businesses on board who are all offering discounts, provides the cardholder with access to all of them.
Over the course of a 2 week holiday, a couple is likely to spend around £1,500 and if they want to be savvy and stick to the businesses signed up to the card, then they would save £250 off the cost of their holiday.
With the coverage that we have, then this will be easily done.
So paying £14 to save £250 is not a difficult decision, is it?

In one day of their holiday, they will have recouped the cost of their card, and when they return home after 2 weeks holiday, they will be able to use it in local businesses to where they live for a further 2.5 months.

Getting 3rd party retailers is a good idea and ties into PSL's idea of trying to get them selling the card for you.

Yes, this is the key to us being able to sell the card without having to do a great deal of marketing.

1) I think you will find its a case of you dont like anyone who doesn't jump out and say 'wow what a great idea you have'.

2) You came on here asking for advice and opinion but only want 'selected' opinion. You have still failed to answer a simple question i.e. how many have you sold ?

Why the reluctance and why can't you answer that simple question ?

You keep on about what a great idea it is and all the research you have done but you do not appear to have sold any. There is no better research than seeing if someone will buy your product !

3) If you don't like negative comments and can't answer your critics how do you propose being in business ?

I think we cleared most of this up yesterday in your previous posts and my belated answers but I'm going through the thread in order so will address these briefly.

1) This is not the case.
I have no issues with the manner in which Paul Rosser offered his criticisms.

2) Have you read my answer and reasoning that I have sold no cards to date? Reason = product not yet launched.
No reluctance to answer it, I just fell behind with trying to answer all of the questions in order and then had to walk the dog and eat.

Playstation are currently developing their PS5 games consol (I'm making this up for effect), how many have they sold?

3) I have been in business for 9 years and have had plenty of critics along the way. It is with their critique that has allowed me to develop as a businessman and to grow a very thick skin, but I've never had much patience for people who believe they know-it-all when they clearly aren't basing their suggestions on the facts presented to them.

If there is something you don't understand from what I have wrote, please just ask me to clear it up before offering to fix a problem that you don't even know if it really exists.

 

[Paul_Rosser]

But at the moment the tourists can't use their card when they go home as you don't have anyone signed up outside of Scotland, not yet anyway.

Whilst there are cards which people pay for up front (I can't think of any other than taste) do you know how long they took to turn a profit ? How many cards they had to give away at the start or heavily discount to get customers ?

As someone else already said people on holiday tend to work on impulse, they want to go for a wander and find a nice looking resturant and then have dinner there, sure if someone gave them a discount card (for free) they may consider looking into the places where they can use it, but if they prefer the look of somewhere else then a 25% discount wouldn't sway me into one of yours.

Have you also allowed for local pricing, what if all the places on your card are more expensive than the other places around them (due to them offering discount schemes)? This was a common trick of the independent tastecard venues, some of them nearly doubled their prices over 2 years as everyone was using tastecards, so they saw it as a way to ensure they got full price for all their food.

But just for the sake of argument lets go big picture and say you do get the 1% so 900,000 cardholders, and say 300,000 of those visit in July as it's quite a popular month for holidays. Chances are they will all want to use the resturants on your provider list as thats generally what people do on holiday and will get a great saving using your card.

Problem is everyone goes for dinner between 7pm and 9pm , so even if they all split their visits equally across the month thats 10,000 extra people using your card at one of your resturants each day. How many resturants do you have on board ? How many extra customers can they handle ? What happens if they can't get a booking in the resturant they want to use, do you offer a refund on the cost of the card ?

Sorry to sound negative as I'm no way an expert in this field, but just seems there are so many variables it's going to be very difficult to make a profit out of a paid card scheme.

Not to say the idea is sound, just that I don't think charging for the card is going to be the best way to make any money. Unless you can provide details of other card schemes which made a decent profit in the first 12 months.

Oh and on the PS5 comment, Sony are currently finishing off the PS4, however as they have had previous success with the ps1, ps2 and ps3 they can make a pretty good estimate on demand for the PS4, consoles can of course flop but the big firms can afford to sell them at a loss to get users on-board and then make the money back on the games, which was the case for the PS2, PS3 and WiiU.

 

[Instabus]

OP in one reply you state:I don't feel confident selling it to locals because it is predominantly designed for the tourism market.

yet in another reply you state:If you had an incentive in the form of a discount to try a new restaurant, shop or hair salon in your village/town/city would you not be motivated to do so?

and
The problem with selling it now is that unless I target tourists planning their visit as another poster suggested, I don't feel confident selling it to locals because it is predominantly designed for the tourism market.

OP, you need to clarify the market (s) that you want to target.

Okay, to repeat:
The card is targeted at tourists who are 70% domestic (from other parts of the UK).
When I asked Paul that question about a local business it was in response to him saying that he doesn't see why anyone would pay for this sort of thing up front.
Admittedly, I see how that could confuse things especially considering that the local use of the card is actually still part of the model, only it is not the main reason people will buy the card in the first place.

The reason it is aimed at tourists is because while on holiday they are eating 2/3 meals per day, sleeping in a bed every night and visiting a range of attractions and partaking in a range of activities - all of which is money that they will be spending. As a couple, £100/day is very easy to spend while on holiday (the card is valid for up to 2 people) I'm sure you will agree?

The reason it is not aimed at locals who are not going on holiday is because they may only spend this same £100 once a week and it won't include the accommodation aspect.
So I am less confident of selling it to locals because it is not easy for them to see how it will pay for itself.

How many retailers/business have you signed up to the scheme?

600 so far and ALL of them are offering discounts.

If that is all true then why not get the very retailers/businesses that support your business become your sales team? Get them selling the cards at the tills.

This is a fundamental part of our business model as explained earlier.
25% of the 600 discount providing businesses have already told us they are very interested in selling the card.

Sorry but your projections are way off as you haven't actually launched yet so can't be based on any existing sales.

Even taste with their massive marketing budgets don't sell half of that and their addressable market is a lot bigger.

Our projections are based very conservatively on the 25% of our businesses that want to sell the card, selling an average of 6 per month over the course of the tourist season.
We have some businesses who have hundreds of guests/customers per week and in the case of the tourist board, have 2m visitors to their visitor centres throughout the year.

We have also factored in a steady increase (from 0) of direct sales via our website and forthcoming app.

Only issue I can see with that is if you were selling a service for say £100 would you want to advertise a card which if purchased only made you £7 but lost you £25 straight away as you have a 25% discount for card holders.

They would be better off selling their own version of the card, keeping the whole £14 and giving the same discount.

So may be better off selling them in places which aren't customers as otherwise they would be mad to push your card to their customers.

That is a good point and is why the card purchase will not provide a discount on the products/services purchased at the same time as the card.
They will typically be sold as an after sale activity, so when guests are checking out of their hotel or paying for their goods.
However it is at the business's discretion if they choose to give the discount there and then and in some businesses it may be more appropriate to do so.

Good point but most retailers can't be bothered to set one up. And how many discount card can one person carry with them?

The customer is going to get the 25% discount anyway if the retailer is signed up to the scheme, irrespective of where the card was bought! Better for the retailer to get £7 back from the 25% discount given to the shopper.

Exactly right. It is one card for lots of discounts rather than one card for each discount. Perhaps that is where you have been confused Paul?
If a retailer is selling cards and comfortable doing so then they will accept the occasional collateral damage but the sale of the cards will more or less offset all of the discounts they have given.

 

[Paul_Rosser]

That is a good point and is why the card purchase will not provide a discount on the products/services purchased at the same time as the card.
They will typically be sold as an after sale activity, so when guests are checking out of their hotel or paying for their goods.
However it is at the business's discretion if they choose to give the discount there and then and in some businesses it may be more appropriate to do so.

.

But the big saving on the card that I can see is with hotels, when people are checking out they are going home so unless they are coming back in the next few weeks it wouldn't really be worth it.

Also I would feel pretty pis**ed off if someone tried to sell me a card which gave me a discount on their hotel, just after they had charged me full price.

Just as a mad thought but do you have any cab firms on your books ? One of the very few things which may make me pay for a card would be a 10% discount on all cab fares whilst on holiday.

 

[Instabus]

Golf courses are good, maybe speak to some of the tour operators who specialise in golf breaks to see if they can value add it to people making bookings for a fee per card sold.

Great suggestion, thanks!
Likewise we will do this with all other specialised tour operators.

Only if the person walks in with the card, if you are expecting them to try and sell it for you then they are in effect offering a discount on day one to a customer already stood in their store, so it hasn't really generated any additional sales.

As I said before, generally this will be an aftersale process so as they are checking out of the hotel, etc.
The card will save them lots of money on everywhere else they go after the business they buy it from so it shouldn't be an issue for them.

1) I am listening. I am listening to the fact that you state that you have signed up 600 outlets but as yet have failed to produce a card or sell any. Why on earth not ? This is the best way to test the theory.

2) You state amazing forecasts but with nothing to substantiate it. You are also looking at a tiny budget and expecting to sell endless amounts with no trials or tests.

3) Nobody is trying to deliberately wreck your idea, so it is crazy coming on here and getting irritated when you don't like what you hear.

1) I have answered that several times but incase you missed it - it is a tourist card, and there are very few tourists before spring.
Also, the 600 businesses are in a concentrated area and we would prefer to sell a complete product instead of half a product ensuring that wherever they go in Scotland they will be able to find discounts, instead of buying the card from one location and then moving onto another where they can't use it.

This is a patient approach and one I am confident will pay off and result in far more happy tourists!

2) I substantiated my projections in the last post or 2, but of course they are based on estimations, however we have some solid base for our numbers, namely that 25% of our 600 businesses want to sell our card, as do some tour operators and we will find out this week if the tourist board decide to do the same.

3) As I've said I can take criticism and I believe I have shown that throughout this thread but if it is delivered without much thought or understanding behind it then yes, I get irritated by that.

If you give away 100,000 cards on a 3 month trial and then when the trial is up charge £5 for an additional 9 months.

Then in 3 months time you will soon find out the demand based on the number of people who renew.

Or is that just too simple ?

No that is true.
Problem though is that in 3 months we will be ready to launch the card anyway and also we need to encourage them to start donating their £5 within a couple of weeks as it is in the next month or so when we will really need some income. 3 months will be too late!

 

[Paul_Rosser]

No that is true.
Problem though is that in 3 months we will be ready to launch the card anyway and also we need to encourage them to start donating their £5 within a couple of weeks as it is in the next month or so when we will really need some income. 3 months will be too late!

Getting the general public to give you £5 in a few weeks I can't see working, however as the concept of the card is for them to use them multiple times in multiple stores, then maybe do a deal with the places who take your card that for every 5 customers who use your card they will give you a £5. That has the potential to make you a lot more cash, obviously it will have to be based on trust as you have no logging system yet, but I would trust a business much more than someone you have given a card to and asked for a donation after they have used it.

 

[Paul_Rosser]

Just as a mad thought but do you have any cab firms on your books ? One of the very few things which may make me pay for a card would be a 10% discount on all cab fares whilst on holiday.

Actually thats not a bad idea so you can't have it

A card worth 10% off all black cabs in London you could sell for a fortune, or even someone like Addison Lee.

 

[Instabus]

1) As I say, this is a public forum, you don't get to dictate how people respond.

Just for clarity - the phrase "I'm out" doesn't mean I'm a likely investor and you're punting for cash - it just means I don't think this idea is going to work.

2) I'm dubious of citing personal experience because it's almost always a dumb way of trying to make decisions but I was given a Taste Card for last Christmas and totally forgot about it - never used.

3) I did, however, visit Berlin in November and bought a 5 day train pass at the airport which came with quite a big book full of tourist guides, information and discounts to tourist sites and restaurants.

A discount of 50% off a food bill for 4 at a restaurant I was planning to visit anyway did manage to overcome my cynicism.

Now that idea had real focus (one city, tourists on arrival, linked to a necessary purchase, no charge, large discounts at all the right places) and I did wonder who was behind it. Selling that deal to the Berlin train company WOULD work.

4) For what it's worth - I think your model is too diverse, too unfocused and as it requires the end user to pay in advance for a discount, I don't think it has a cat in hell's chance.

5) like I say, I'm occasionally wrong and I'm particularly weak on pure marketing schemes. Do prove me wrong.

1) Okay fair enough, but I was getting frustrated at people answering every point but the one I was looking for an answer from and the phrase "I'm Out" just made me think you felt you were the investor and I was the pitcher, at your mercy.

2) You were given a TasteCard for Christmas and didn't use it?
Well, that says to me that someone still bought it in the first place and like many Christmas presents, they are the wrong present for the individual it was bought for.

3) Sure, this is one model among many that works. If it transpires that my model is flawed then I have this option and several others to turn to next and in fact we can still incorporate this into our current strategy.

The bottom line though is you still paid for that collection of discounts, you just didn't realise it as it was factored into the cost of your 5 day rail card.
I prefer transparency and honesty personally.

4) Thanks for your opinion but if it was based on more than just a hunch then I would really take it seriously. The fact is there is a precedent for this model and if you can't see how it will work then it probably just isn't your cup of tea.

5) I look forward to coming back here and doing just that.

Oh, and thanks for providing my office with our softphone requirements!
The 28 day renewal and non rolling over of minutes is a bit of a rip off though, as is the counting of any part of a minute as a whole minute, but the service is good and we are not tied in to anything so will show no loyalty if something better comes along.

 

[Instabus]

Why give it away and hope that people will donate? On the church works on that business model they give some hope and some people pay, sorry donate.

Sell it to people and use the marketing line '£10 gets U 10% discount at 600 retailers and businesses' simple and to the point and it gives the users clarity and the retailers and businesses a pre-defined level of discount to offer.

With this donation though, they get something real to believe in with it!
[/athiest]

It is an option I am considering but having our card in 100,000 hands will not only be great marketing for us but will also drive many new customers to the businesses who are on board and who have yet seen any effect from the card due to not selling any.

Do you think it is reasonable to expect 5% to donate/pay £5?
Especially if they are promised another card to replace the free one they already have, and to play a part in helping a local business succeed?

The other reason why I favour this option is that I am trying to run a business and selling takes up a lot of time that I simply don't have if the rest of the business is to develop.
I have 2 full-time sales guys in the office but they are busy signing up the businesses.

 

[Instabus]

If I said to my wife we are going to Glasgow to see the Charles Rennie Mackintosh sites etc, she would say great, where are we staying?
If I said "Don't worry love we will get a hotel when we get there and we will get a discount as well!" I would be going on my own.

Very few people leave choosing accommodation to chance/ the last minute/ or when they get to their destination. And you certainly wouldn't get a family doing that either.
And families would/should be your target market as well.

Last year I paid £150ish for a discount card that gives me great discounts to theme parks and attractions around the UK for the whole family. I think 'her in'doors worked out we would save £600 just based on the number of previous trips to the theme parks we had done the previous year. Different figures to your card but same principle.

You need to fine tune your business model and then prove the model by selling the cards.

It's great to have a plan for the future of the business but you need a solid foundation to build on.

Fair point.
We will be investing a lot in SEO and our website has been built around making it easily found on the search engines as people are searching for businesses by name.
So until our SEO kicks in which will take around a year, people can still find our site by typing in say "robs hotel edinburgh". So my expectation is that as people have a choice of hotels that they are researching before booking them, they will find our website and see that they are offering 15% off their room rate with our card.
Hopefully they will then have a wider look around our site while they are there and will quickly see that they could save much more than on just that hotel.

Was that the CityPass you paid £150 for or something else?
I forgot to mention them too as a precedent.
Edinburgh, London and several European and US cities have them and they work on this same principal.

 

[Paul_Rosser]

Was that the CityPass you paid £150 for or something else?
.

The MerlinPass is about that and very good, covers attractions like thorpe park.

 

[Psl]

So, what if, for the start of Feb, you put 20 cards into the 150 (25%) of retailers that want to sell them. They all sold 6 in Feb = 900 cards sold.And if you had agreed on a 50/50 split you should return £6,300 for Feb?

If however, the retailers sell more cards than the projected 6. they make more money,you make more money and you can then use the sales figures to encourage other retailers to start selling the card.And you factor in that it's not actually the tourist season and increase your projections.

However, if they sell less than the projected 6 per month, you need to re-think your business model.

 

[Instabus]

May be a stupid question but what have you spent £40k on ?

The website, lots of marketing material for the businesses before we cold call them and the overheads of working from an office with 2 full time salespeople.

My personal investment has been made up of running the entire other side of the business which is with the minibus I mentioned earlier.
Alongside developing this new business I have been arranging and giving guided tours of the country for visitors who want to see and learn about Scotland.
I've also had to suffer a few stag and hen weekends in between!

I've earned this money but not paid it to myself aside from the very minimum to survive on.

In the last few months though I stopped doing the driving and recruited a driver, who I have recently had to let go and now I am looking to sell the minibus as I feel the time is right to focus on the discount card business - which I'm sure you will probably tell me I'm mad to do!

 

[Paul_Rosser]

The website, lots of marketing material for the businesses before we cold call them and the overheads of working from an office with 2 full time salespeople.

My personal investment has been made up of running the entire other side of the business which is with the minibus I mentioned earlier.
Alongside developing this new business I have been arranging and giving guided tours of the country for visitors who want to see and learn about Scotland.
I've also had to suffer a few stag and hen weekends in between!

I've earned this money but not paid it to myself aside from the very minimum to survive on.

In the last few months though I stopped doing the driving and recruited a driver, who I have recently had to let go and now I am looking to sell the minibus as I feel the time is right to focus on the discount card business - which I'm sure you will probably tell me I'm mad to do!

Nope you were mad to hire the two salespeople without enough cash in the bank to cover your first year costs. Mad but I must admire the bravery.

In all honesty we go on holiday to Florida every year and they are discount crazy, there are % off offers in every magazine, on every flyer for resturants etc, And unless it's somewhere I was going to visit anyway then we have never used them and these are free.

Usual reasons are it's not the kind of place we would visit or as you have no idea of the pricing a % discount means nothing, if the resturant is more expensive than others in the same area then it may work out more pricey to use them.

As I said previously the only discount cards I may pay for would be those with focus on services which I have to use and don't really care who provides it, such as taxis.

 

[Instabus]

Of course, but you are looking for £20k so why not go out and sell some cards if everything is ready to go?

Not ready yet
1,000 businesses offering discounts all around Scotland and not just the central belt and we will be ready.

Yes of course you need to have discounts. What I don't get is that you have over 600 businesses signed up so why can't you get enough discounts to trial a test card ? I'm sure especially at this time of year businesses would be only too keen to give offers and get people through their doors.

Maybe I need to clear this point up for you incase you missed it. All 600 businesses do offer a discount. That is what allows them to receive the advertising on our website.

As I say, we could try and sell some cards now but it will be timeconsuming and it won't sell itself in the way it will when we have more coverage.
If the 100,000 giveaway is a non starter then this is what we will have to do.

Well exactly and this is what I've been harping on about. Why on earth do you have to wait for full launch ? Surely you would be best off trailing it to see if it works on a small scale. If it does then you also get some money in.

I wouldn't dream of launching a business full on without proving it works first.

See above answer.
I am not averse to taking a risk but this is not some blind, unresearched, ill-conceived risk as you are implying.
2 years of my life has been spent with this occupying around 97% of my thoughts.
Sadly it would not have been possible to prove beyond doubt that this will work for the reasons I have given but I have used a lot of fact and evidence to mitigate the risk I am taking.

 

[drdes]

1. If you have been working on this for 2 yrs and still havent made any money in spite of having 600 businesses signed up what are you doing? I want to wring you by the neck and tell you GET YOUR PRODUCT OUT THERE and see what happens. You have 600 businesses ffs!

2. Lets stop referring to this 5 quid as a donation. People dont donate to private profit making companies.

3. you keep confusing me with your target market. One minute its tourists from US, japan etc, the next its tourists from UK who will continue using the card when they go back home, next it is 100k local people.they may all be potential customers but you appear to refer to them interchangeably. Focus.

4. You say you sales takes up too much time - well thats kind of the point of a business.


Sent from my MB860 using UK Business Forums

 

[DavidAshdown]

OP: You just dont get it.
Your passion is obsessive.
I really hope you make it but I really doubt you do.
You don't listen to objections.
You have not proved a single sale.

Go out and sell to 1% of your audience and then come back with those proven stats.

You keep trying to convince people on here, how you going to convince jo public. ?

 

[DavidAshdown]

You say selling some of the 600 discounts is too time consuming. How do your customers feel about that ?

 

[Instabus]

But at the moment the tourists can't use their card when they go home as you don't have anyone signed up outside of Scotland, not yet anyway.

This is true so our initial card sales will be fewer and harder to generate than they will be when we have full UK coverage.
But they can still recoup the cost in a single day of their holiday so it is still a strong selling point.

Whilst there are cards which people pay for up front (I can't think of any other than taste) do you know how long they took to turn a profit ? How many cards they had to give away at the start or heavily discount to get customers ?
Gourmet Society, City Pass (in multiple cities), local restaurant coupon for local residents (goes back 15 years), Snap Fax (the non-student version).
I haven't looked into all of their accounting history as none of them use the 3rd party retailer route so it wouldn't be a relevant insight.

Taste and Gourmet charge £80 at full price for their cards so no wonder they had to significantly discount them or give them a way to get off the mark. At £14, one could say ours are already at a discounted price.

As someone else already said people on holiday tend to work on impulse, they want to go for a wander and find a nice looking resturant and then have dinner there, sure if someone gave them a discount card (for free) they may consider looking into the places where they can use it, but if they prefer the look of somewhere else then a 25% discount wouldn't sway me into one of yours.

This is true but many of our businesses will have our strong brand in their window, encouraging that impulse and then when our app arrives they will have another tool to support this.

Have you also allowed for local pricing, what if all the places on your card are more expensive than the other places around them (due to them offering discount schemes)? This was a common trick of the independent tastecard venues, some of them nearly doubled their prices over 2 years as everyone was using tastecards, so they saw it as a way to ensure they got full price for all their food.

This is not something I expect to happen.
Even if 900,000 tourists buy our card, that is over the whole UK so they are spread very thinly and will only account for 5% - 10% at most of a business's annual trade. And unlike Tastecrd and Gourmet, they are only giving a discount that they have set as being one they can afford instead of the unsustainable 50% or 2for1.

But just for the sake of argument lets go big picture and say you do get the 1% so 900,000 cardholders, and say 300,000 of those visit in July as it's quite a popular month for holidays. Chances are they will all want to use the resturants on your provider list as thats generally what people do on holiday and will get a great saving using your card.

Problem is everyone goes for dinner between 7pm and 9pm , so even if they all split their visits equally across the month thats 10,000 extra people using your card at one of your resturants each day. How many resturants do you have on board ? How many extra customers can they handle ? What happens if they can't get a booking in the resturant they want to use, do you offer a refund on the cost of the card ?

As said above, this won't happen as 900,000 tourists with our card across the UK over the course of a year means that it would be highly unlikely that any single business will be bombarded at any given time.

Sorry to sound negative as I'm no way an expert in this field, but just seems there are so many variables it's going to be very difficult to make a profit out of a paid card scheme.

Not to say the idea is sound, just that I don't think charging for the card is going to be the best way to make any money. Unless you can provide details of other card schemes which made a decent profit in the first 12 months.

As I say, we have a different model than any other scheme out there. Only time will tell if that is a good thing or not!

Oh and on the PS5 comment, Sony are currently finishing off the PS4, however as they have had previous success with the ps1, ps2 and ps3 they can make a pretty good estimate on demand for the PS4, consoles can of course flop but the big firms can afford to sell them at a loss to get users on-board and then make the money back on the games, which was the case for the PS2, PS3 and WiiU.

It was a bad example! :redface:
How many paintings did Van Gough sell of his Sunflowers before he died... oh dear, bad example again.

 

[DavidAshdown]

I'll put another twist on this, and one that is most obvious.

Selling the idea to outlets is simple, most businesses want to offer discounts...it's in their nature.

Getting people to pay for those discounts is unnatural, only the fool hardy do that. People pick up bargains without having to pay for them....

 

[DavidAshdown]

Not being funny, but the OP has spent so much time trying to explain the virtues of his idea, including a very long opening page, that I really dont believe that such an idea can work.

If you have to spend endless hours trying to explain your product, how on earth can you expect Jo Public to understand it it in a flip of an eye ?

 

[DavidAshdown]

This is true so our initial card sales will be fewer and harder to generate than they will be when we have full UK coverage.
But they can still recoup the cost in a single day of their holiday so it is still a strong selling point.

Whilst there are cards which people pay for up front (I can't think of any other than taste) do you know how long they took to turn a profit ? How many cards they had to give away at the start or heavily discount to get customers ?
Gourmet Society, City Pass (in multiple cities), local restaurant coupon for local residents (goes back 15 years), Snap Fax (the non-student version).
I haven't looked into all of their accounting history as none of them use the 3rd party retailer route so it wouldn't be a relevant insight.

Taste and Gourmet charge £80 at full price for their cards so no wonder they had to significantly discount them or give them a way to get off the mark. At £14, one could say ours are already at a discounted price.


This is true but many of our businesses will have our strong brand in their window, encouraging that impulse and then when our app arrives they will have another tool to support this.


This is not something I expect to happen.
Even if 900,000 tourists buy our card, that is over the whole UK so they are spread very thinly and will only account for 5% - 10% at most of a business's annual trade. And unlike Tastecrd and Gourmet, they are only giving a discount that they have set as being one they can afford instead of the unsustainable 50% or 2for1.


As said above, this won't happen as 900,000 tourists with our card across the UK over the course of a year means that it would be highly unlikely that any single business will be bombarded at any given time.


As I say, we have a different model than any other scheme out there. Only time will tell if that is a good thing or not!


It was a bad example! :redface:
How many paintings did Van Gough sell of his Sunflowers before he died... oh dear, bad example again.

900,000 tourists with your card ????

Come on, get real, you havent sold 1 yet

 

[Instabus]

But the big saving on the card that I can see is with hotels, when people are checking out they are going home so unless they are coming back in the next few weeks it wouldn't really be worth it.

Also I would feel pretty pis**ed off if someone tried to sell me a card which gave me a discount on their hotel, just after they had charged me full price.

Just as a mad thought but do you have any cab firms on your books ? One of the very few things which may make me pay for a card would be a 10% discount on all cab fares whilst on holiday.

There is a huge difference between a 2 week holiday in Florida and a 2 week holiday in the UK.
I am using Florida as the example because that is where you choose to holiday every year - and therefore there is a huge difference in mindset between you and the target market of my card.

People visiting the UK travel around while they are here because there is a huge amount of variety on offer and the distances to travel are relatively small.
Compared to Florida where you have Orlando and you have the Everglades and if you are really adventurous you will spend a week in each place.
People don't holiday in the UK to stay in the same place for the whole time so I view checking out of the hotel as something that happens multiple times during a UK holiday.

Taxi firms are a good shout, thanks!
Only problem is that the drivers are self-employed so would need to have a mechanism for getting the firm to refund the discount they have given.

Getting the general public to give you £5 in a few weeks I can't see working, however as the concept of the card is for them to use them multiple times in multiple stores, then maybe do a deal with the places who take your card that for every 5 customers who use your card they will give you a £5. That has the potential to make you a lot more cash, obviously it will have to be based on trust as you have no logging system yet, but I would trust a business much more than someone you have given a card to and asked for a donation after they have used it.

Another good suggestion and one I will look into.
Only flaw as you say is how to monitor it.

Actually thats not a bad idea so you can't have it

A card worth 10% off all black cabs in London you could sell for a fortune, or even someone like Addison Lee.

Too late!
Clearly would only work if it was exclusive to one or two taxi firms and not them all, otherwise why would they discount?
I have no knowledge of how it works in London though so you can keep that one and let me know how you get on with it!

The MerlinPass is about that and very good, covers attractions like thorpe park.

There's another one for the list then.
Tried and tested, precedent set as I have been saying all along.

 

[DavidAshdown]

I honestly think you live in a dream world, even your name says it all.

Go out and sell......it's quite simple, stop spending hours on here trying to convince yourself with words. Sales is all that matters.

When you have sold, you have something to say.

I wish you luck.

 

[DavidAshdown]

There is a huge difference between a 2 week holiday in Florida and a 2 week holiday in the UK.
I am using Florida as the example because that is where you choose to holiday every year - and therefore there is a huge difference in mindset between you and the target market of my card.

People visiting the UK travel around while they are here because there is a huge amount of variety on offer and the distances to travel are relatively small.
Compared to Florida where you have Orlando and you have the Everglades and if you are really adventurous you will spend a week in each place.
People don't holiday in the UK to stay in the same place for the whole time so I view checking out of the hotel as something that happens multiple times during a UK holiday.

Taxi firms are a good shout, thanks!
Only problem is that the drivers are self-employed so would need to have a mechanism for getting the firm to refund the discount they have given.


Another good suggestion and one I will look into.
Only flaw as you say is how to monitor it.


Too late!
Clearly would only work if it was exclusive to one or two taxi firms and not them all, otherwise why would they discount?
I have no knowledge of how it works in London though so you can keep that one and let me know how you get on with it!


There's another one for the list then.
Tried and tested, precedent set as I have been saying all along.

Jesus, you do go on. Why ?

Why not just go out and sell your idea ?

Why keep waffling on? Who you trying to convince ???

 

[cjd]

The bottom line though is you still paid for that collection of discounts, you just didn't realise it as it was factored into the cost of your 5 day rail card.

I don't know whether that's true or not but either way it wasn't a consideration - I needed the tickets and got the offers by default. If I'd had to buy them I absolutely wouldn't.

Apart from my personal aversion to these kind of things, I was in a foreign country where everything was in a foreign language. I'd just arrived and the very last thing I'm going to do is sign up for a scammy sounding discount scheme that I don't know anything about.

But having been given one and facing a 40 minute train journey into Alexanderplaz I had nothing better to do than flick through the blurb and finally find it useful.

How many other people like me do you think go through the same experience? I think virtually all tourists arriving at Berlin International Airport staying for 3 days or more and getting the fast train into Berlin ie the perfect target market.

I doubt the offers added to the cost of the ticket. For one reason the ticket was dirt cheap anyway but mostly because if I was them (Berlin transport) I'd wouldn't do that kind of deal.

I would get a few marketing agencies to pitch for a concession to create the package with the restaurants and attractions and in return take a small fee from them. As a contribution to the deal, and to prove that I was behind it, I'd fund the printing of the brochures myself (as I know that I only need to print as many as the tickets I sell.)

I prefer transparency and honesty personally.

Yes, me too, that's why we take a lot of time and trouble trying to explain our prices.

Oh, and thanks for providing my office with our softphone requirements!
The 28 day renewal and non rolling over of minutes is a bit of a rip off though, as is the counting of any part of a minute as a whole minute.....

You're welcome.

Why did you buy a package? They are designed for high users that will use their minutes within the month, particularly those that make a lot of international calls where the discount is huge.

The packages are renewed every 30 days - that's fully explained on our pricing page and in a pop-up confirmation box before you can actually purchase them. We don't want people buying the wrong things

We publish our prices, in full, from our home page and provide a full description of how the billing works for each. This is for the call packages

How Do Call Minutes Packages Work?

1. You choose which packages you need from our Package Builder. You may pick either a landline or a mobile package or both types.

2. When calls are made to destinations covered by your package, call minutes are deducted from them (rounded up to whole minutes).

3. Your packages are automatically renewed and rebilled every month and unused minutes are not carried over.

4. If you call a destination not included in one of your packages, the call cost is deducted from your normal calling credit. (For this reason you should always have some ordinary calling credit on your account even if you take both a mobile and landline call package.)

5. Calls not included in packages include 08 numbers, non UK mobiles (with the exception of US and China mobiles) and some international destinations (check the list of included countries below)

This isn't buried deep inside our T&Cs, it's in your face shouting at you.

http://www.voipfone.co.uk/prices_c_minutes_packages.php

It's kind of our USP - transparent and honest pricing.

....but the service is good and we are not tied in to anything so will show no loyalty if something better comes along

And neither should you. Our whole service is built around no contract and no commitment. People stay with us not because they have to but because we're bloody good at what we do. If we're ever not, you can leave in a blink. But very few do.

We do not advertise and never have; we have no sales people and do not re-sell - we exist on reputation and word of mouth alone.

I really do wish you well with your business and I think you have something in there somewhere.

But I don't believe that you can sell a discount card to here-today-gone-tomorrow tourists that won't have time to work out your offer and I think you're placing too much trust is simple spreadsheet modelling. You need some focus and a way to give the cards away to create some value in the card. You'll never sell a discount card.

But I would love to be proven wrong, not least because then I'd have more business from you than a free softphone and a five quid calling package ;-)