Streets are safer ...my backside they are..
- Thread starter Hedgie
- Start date
I agree that the streets are not safe and probably won't be for some time. I'm sure that there is a solution out there but if we as intelligent members of society can't come up with a solution then the answer to this problem will probably evade us for some time.
It's very easy to say get rid of all guns but in practice how do you do it? You could throw down longer prison sentences, but where are you going to house all the prisoners (alongside their plasma TV's and Playstations)? Deport foreign criminals I hear you shout, yes good idea. You'll have to fight the human rights act first which even our government is struggling against.
Threads such as this one can go round in circles indefinitely without coming to a conclusion. That said, if anybody does have an answer (which doesn't involve emigration) I'd love to hear it!
It's very easy to say get rid of all guns but in practice how do you do it? You could throw down longer prison sentences, but where are you going to house all the prisoners (alongside their plasma TV's and Playstations)? Deport foreign criminals I hear you shout, yes good idea. You'll have to fight the human rights act first which even our government is struggling against.
Threads such as this one can go round in circles indefinitely without coming to a conclusion. That said, if anybody does have an answer (which doesn't involve emigration) I'd love to hear it!
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T
Tobes
Expunge the clause that allows foreign criminals to remain on these shores Or remove the Human Rights Act altogether; British laws are superior anyway.
As to, 'oh dear no more prison places', well, firstly hopefully that is to change, secondly effing prioritise. I would prefer gun criminals to be sent down rather than the criminally fraudulent or the thieves...Have a total crackdown on gun crime; one strike you're out, special taskforces vacuuming the streets for scum. No second chances, no rehabilitation, just cold hard steel bars, baby.
Or remove the Human Rights Act altogether; British laws are superior anyway.As to, 'oh dear no more prison places', well, firstly hopefully that is to change, secondly effing prioritise. I would prefer gun criminals to be sent down rather than the criminally fraudulent or the thieves...Have a total crackdown on gun crime; one strike you're out, special taskforces vacuuming the streets for scum. No second chances, no rehabilitation, just cold hard steel bars, baby.
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Stugster, there are quite a few options available, try posting over at www.cctvforum.com
for advice.
As for guns dont kill people etc, I thought it was the bullets that killed people... Talking about bullets, I cant believe this is real, if it is real, its a sad indication of how far gun culture has gone in the states.
http://www.bulletproofbaby.net/
for advice.
As for guns dont kill people etc, I thought it was the bullets that killed people... Talking about bullets, I cant believe this is real, if it is real, its a sad indication of how far gun culture has gone in the states.
http://www.bulletproofbaby.net/
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Still cant figure out if it is real, or a joke.
The video of them putting the baby in the pram, then shooting the h*ll out of the pram certainly looks real....
Its a well designed 'joke' site if that indeed is what it is, but Im still trying to find out for certain if its a p*** take or not!
The video of them putting the baby in the pram, then shooting the h*ll out of the pram certainly looks real....
Its a well designed 'joke' site if that indeed is what it is, but Im still trying to find out for certain if its a p*** take or not!
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Why is it ridiculous? Sometimes, when we hear about the use of guns, it comes across as if people use them to randomly shoot others. While there may be some cases like that, they are rare. By far the most common shooting deaths relate to domestic or gang-related issues. If a gun isn't handy, you can be sure a knife is.
The problem in part, as always, is the popular press. They take isolated examples and pretend as if they're the norm. Most often, they are not.
Coming back to the problem at hand, the real issue is not guns; it's that youngsters have a dwindling sense of right or wrong. I'd go so far as to say that this is a result of the new and prevailing philosophy of life, one that doesn't believe in absolute moral standards and can't agree on what's right or wrong. In that kind of environment, everyone will begin to do what's right in their own eyes, and that's not a pleasant prospect.
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T
Tobes
Steve, I understand that there are a whole host of options when considering murder, not just guns
Guns are cult. They are fashionable. They are cool. They are great toys. They're the weapon of choice in the majority of movies! More important than all that, they are EASY. So easy that it is psychologically differentiating.
Guns are cult. They are fashionable. They are cool. They are great toys. They're the weapon of choice in the majority of movies! More important than all that, they are EASY. So easy that it is psychologically differentiating.
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And they are used in many video games. I agree that popular culture has a fascination with guns, and maybe that's an issue. Still, there are plenty of games that have characters beheading opponents or driving over pedestrians, but we don't go outside and do that.Steve, I understand that there are a whole host of options when considering murder, not just guns
Guns are cult. They are fashionable. They are cool. They are great toys. They're the weapon of choice in the majority of movies! More important than all that, they are EASY. So easy that it is psychologically differentiating.
In the end, though, it comes down to how strong is our sense of right and wrong. As my mother would often say when I did something stupid, "would you jump off a cliff just because everyone else does it?" If our value system is not strong, we're likely to be swayed by what impresses our peers - or what we think we can get away with.
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The problem does not lie with legally-held firearms! I hate to repeat myself, but how many kids have been shot with a legally-held firearm?
I could come to England tomorrow, go into a few pubs and generally put myself about - and I am willing to bet I could have a gun bought under the counter in a matter of days! That is where your problem lies - anyone with any street-savvy now has access to guns for little money.
The guns themselves are only a part of the problem. Lets face it, how many illegal weapons do you think are kicking around over here still? There are loads of them I'd bet - but nobody is being shot on the streets. (Before you start, yes there has been the odd body found dismembered, but that is a side issue).
You need to stop the gang-culture and stop these bloody games which promote the kicking, stabbing and shooting of people, being sold to kids. I cannot believe the number of kids who play GTA - yet have a look at it, it is not and should not be for kids. They are being taught (albeit indirectly) that violence is ok and that they should use it to gain credibility and to gain respect.
So where are we? We cannot blame any one of these things directly, but all of them are compounding the behaviour of kids nowadays:
1) Not enough discipline any more. When we were kids even our neighbours would have slapped us about if they caught us misbehaving.
2) Violence-related video games. These are rated like movies, but not enforced, even by parents.
3) Music - promoting guns and the whole gang-culture
4) Inner city poverty always breeds crime.
5) Illegal smuggling into the country has reached alarming proportions. The bloody EU is half to blame for this.
6) Gangs - these need to be stopped and now.
7) Rascism - some of the minorities are being targetted so much in their own area they feel they need to strike back or first.
8) Drugs - the drugs themselves are not as much of a problem as the supply-chain. It brings in weapons to enforce its laws and these fall into the wrong hands.
9) Police empathy. They need a good boot up the backside and told to arrest some criminals.
10) The judicial system. They need to actually start punishing people and get rid of half those out-of-touch judges.
11) The government. They should be made to be truthful and forced to get tough on crime, not just let on they are. And build some prisons to house these brutes - not the usually holiday camp either.
etc
etc
Unless this problem is dealt with soon - you are going to be reading about crime-related deaths even more regularly.
I could come to England tomorrow, go into a few pubs and generally put myself about - and I am willing to bet I could have a gun bought under the counter in a matter of days! That is where your problem lies - anyone with any street-savvy now has access to guns for little money.
The guns themselves are only a part of the problem. Lets face it, how many illegal weapons do you think are kicking around over here still? There are loads of them I'd bet - but nobody is being shot on the streets. (Before you start, yes there has been the odd body found dismembered, but that is a side issue).
You need to stop the gang-culture and stop these bloody games which promote the kicking, stabbing and shooting of people, being sold to kids. I cannot believe the number of kids who play GTA - yet have a look at it, it is not and should not be for kids. They are being taught (albeit indirectly) that violence is ok and that they should use it to gain credibility and to gain respect.
So where are we? We cannot blame any one of these things directly, but all of them are compounding the behaviour of kids nowadays:
1) Not enough discipline any more. When we were kids even our neighbours would have slapped us about if they caught us misbehaving.
2) Violence-related video games. These are rated like movies, but not enforced, even by parents.
3) Music - promoting guns and the whole gang-culture
4) Inner city poverty always breeds crime.
5) Illegal smuggling into the country has reached alarming proportions. The bloody EU is half to blame for this.
6) Gangs - these need to be stopped and now.
7) Rascism - some of the minorities are being targetted so much in their own area they feel they need to strike back or first.
8) Drugs - the drugs themselves are not as much of a problem as the supply-chain. It brings in weapons to enforce its laws and these fall into the wrong hands.
9) Police empathy. They need a good boot up the backside and told to arrest some criminals.
10) The judicial system. They need to actually start punishing people and get rid of half those out-of-touch judges.
11) The government. They should be made to be truthful and forced to get tough on crime, not just let on they are. And build some prisons to house these brutes - not the usually holiday camp either.
etc
etc
Unless this problem is dealt with soon - you are going to be reading about crime-related deaths even more regularly.
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P
PI Guy
I have CCTV all around my house and it all records to a DVR which is accessible on my PC from inside and outside the house.
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P
PI Guy
This is very true. People kill people. Illegal guns are freely available in any British city. The problem is not guns but rather the gang culture which is imported over from the US via cool movies. If i may be a little bit uncaring, who cares? There's too many people on the planet anyway.
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It can be like that when you first install CCTV, but after a while chances are you forget it is there. I certainly did, just like the people in Big brother, you forget there are cameras. I have two outside, and several around the home, recording to a pc based geovision system, with a backup visimetrics DVR, and third backup cheapo honewell DVR, all on UPS backup. The house has more CCTV backups than most banks, and its worked - a lot less trouble since I installed them.
Completely forget they are there most of the time, but a godsend when something happens, like couriers dropping parcels, kids throwing stuff a windows etc.
I dont even need to spend time reviewing hours of footage, with a modern system you can just get it to search for when something happens in a area you mark out, saving lots of reviewing time.
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We have much more wealth today than we did 50 years ago. We have better education, housing, and public services than we had 50 years ago. Almost everyone has a TV, has a car, goes on holiday, which they didn't 50 years ago. The families of those on the streets today are unbelievably more wealthy than the families of 50 years ago. We haven't faced any world wars in the last 50 years, and we're supposedly so much more enlightened. Based on the evidence, m'lud, I conclude that current problems have nothing whatsoever to do with wealth.
As for distribution of wealth, the only way to get around that is to live in a communist state where everything belongs to the government - no thank you. I've visited communist countries, and they are oppressive and rather pathetic. Of course some people will envy the rich, but that was true 50 years ago as well. If we're looking for evidence, it points to a correlation between violent and illegal behaviour and a philosophy that claims there's no moral absolutes and no objective definition of right and wrong. Everyone then does what they please and what they think they can get away with. More and more individuals (including parents) eschew their personal responsibilities, and conscience is no longer a restraining force. This, in popular parlance, is 'liberation'.
The long-term solution is not tougher sentencing or stricter enforcement of the law, although it may help. That would be like giving prescription-strength aspirin to cure a cancer. The only way forward is to fix the problem itself and re-instill a sense of values. That in turn requires strong families, and the message thread about marriage is not too encouraging. Heaven help us if, because of the disintegration of families, more and more children are supported and educated by the government.
As for distribution of wealth, the only way to get around that is to live in a communist state where everything belongs to the government - no thank you. I've visited communist countries, and they are oppressive and rather pathetic. Of course some people will envy the rich, but that was true 50 years ago as well. If we're looking for evidence, it points to a correlation between violent and illegal behaviour and a philosophy that claims there's no moral absolutes and no objective definition of right and wrong. Everyone then does what they please and what they think they can get away with. More and more individuals (including parents) eschew their personal responsibilities, and conscience is no longer a restraining force. This, in popular parlance, is 'liberation'.
The long-term solution is not tougher sentencing or stricter enforcement of the law, although it may help. That would be like giving prescription-strength aspirin to cure a cancer. The only way forward is to fix the problem itself and re-instill a sense of values. That in turn requires strong families, and the message thread about marriage is not too encouraging. Heaven help us if, because of the disintegration of families, more and more children are supported and educated by the government.
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Every study ever done in this area comes up with the same conclusions - street crime and gang culture comes from the poor (ok relatively, poor <sighs>) and poorly educated sections of our societies. What's more relative poverty is causal and diagnostic.
Oh good grief, one day I'm going to send you a 30 foot straw man
Who mentioned communism?. You've just said yourself that even the poorest sections of our society are wealthy compared to 50 years ago. That happened because of general economic growth and it floats all boats.
Liberal capitalism will mostly solve this but it's going to take 5 or six generations of constant economic growth plus state investment in health, education and housing.
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So why are things worse today than they were 50 years ago? Based on your theory, wouldn't you expect a huge improvement?
Which means you need about 200 years to prove your theory is right, even though it flies in the face of current evidence. What will society be like by then if you happen to be wrong?
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Ignoring a couple of world wars that took care of a few generations of youth, I'm not convinced they are worse. Long term trends seem to say the opposite.
Additionally, in the days when adults did have more control over kids, those same kids were physically and sexually abused by individuals and institutions. I certainly don't want to go back to the days when psychopathic teachers and priests could do pretty much what they wanted to children, do you? The Children Act and the Human Rights legislation has redressed that and there is now an inevitable, but temporary swing back; we need to get quickly over it.
We'll do all that anyway, all Western democracies have been to some extent or other. I will be wrong; but not totally - but it's the best chance we have.
And I've not heard anyone come up with anything else yet. Mostly it's a lot of tut tutting.
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Not at all. For me, at least, the answer is clear.
1) Accept that there are moral absolutes, and keep them (in fact reinforce them) in our legal system.
2) Emphasise the importance of the traditional family, and do some things that ensure parents are held accountable for instilling values in their children (such as sentencing parents for the crimes of their offspring).
3) Encourage those non-government institutions (including churches) that help the most needy and that provide help to troubled young people. By looking at them positively instead of negatively, maybe more people would be willing to turn there for help.
4) Stop penalising observers (whether it be neighbours, friends, or by-standers) for trying to prevent crimes, and stop using stupid laws to prevent individuals from helping themselves.
5) Instill a mentality of hope in the country and a belief that anyone can achieve anything if only they set their mind to it. Hope is a very powerful incentive to succeed.
6) The final point is very difficult to achieve, but it would really help. Encourage the media to report as many positive, heart-warming stories as they do negative ones. If a paper decides to pursue this approach, let's reward them by buying their product.
1) Accept that there are moral absolutes, and keep them (in fact reinforce them) in our legal system.
2) Emphasise the importance of the traditional family, and do some things that ensure parents are held accountable for instilling values in their children (such as sentencing parents for the crimes of their offspring).
3) Encourage those non-government institutions (including churches) that help the most needy and that provide help to troubled young people. By looking at them positively instead of negatively, maybe more people would be willing to turn there for help.
4) Stop penalising observers (whether it be neighbours, friends, or by-standers) for trying to prevent crimes, and stop using stupid laws to prevent individuals from helping themselves.
5) Instill a mentality of hope in the country and a belief that anyone can achieve anything if only they set their mind to it. Hope is a very powerful incentive to succeed.
6) The final point is very difficult to achieve, but it would really help. Encourage the media to report as many positive, heart-warming stories as they do negative ones. If a paper decides to pursue this approach, let's reward them by buying their product.
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C
Chris Kaday
I think the solution is so obvious and none of the pundits or politicians seem to be picking it up big time. These kids have nowhere to go and nothing to do. So they hang around in gangs on street corners and this is the result. Where are the inspirational sportsmen and women to get them active, (would solve the obesity problem too) the drama teachers and musicians to get them creative and so on. All we do is hire 2800 community support offers to chase them around the towns and establish a criminal justice system which sees them more in the courts than anywhere else with absolutely no positive effect. The parents suffered the same night time neglect so they are not encouraging either. The Royal Opera House is my second home but I would willingly see the government putting the funding into facilities and training those with skills to offer on how to enthuse these kids. One thing you can say for sure is that the situation will get steadily worse. I know of nothing in this country which has improved except the governments ability to spin - any government.
I am relieved my sons are grown up or else we would be knocking on the doors of Australia or Canada house today. Enquiries to 'working visa' are up 400% since the beginning of this year.
Sorry chaps but so depressing and to turn the tide now is going to take a super human effort not more talk.
Love to all
Chris kaday
I am relieved my sons are grown up or else we would be knocking on the doors of Australia or Canada house today. Enquiries to 'working visa' are up 400% since the beginning of this year.
Sorry chaps but so depressing and to turn the tide now is going to take a super human effort not more talk.
Love to all
Chris kaday
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All of that has been done over and over.
You can't tinker with criminal legislation any more than has already been done, nor will 'tougher' sentences or punishing parents do anything more than put more people in clink.
Society already has absolute moral values - you're not going to find anyone disagreeing that shooting an 11 year old is wrong.
Installing hope is a bit of a meaningless, mum and apple pie thing isn't it?
You can't tinker with criminal legislation any more than has already been done, nor will 'tougher' sentences or punishing parents do anything more than put more people in clink.
Society already has absolute moral values - you're not going to find anyone disagreeing that shooting an 11 year old is wrong.
Installing hope is a bit of a meaningless, mum and apple pie thing isn't it?
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Kids have nowhere to go and nothing to do?
When I was a kid, there was a lot less to do, and even less places to go than there are now.
There were less TV channels, less sports facilities, less youth clubs, no internet, none of the fancy gadgets kids can play with now.
We didnt go round saying we are bored, lets break the law and terrorise people. We made our own entertainment.
Kids cannot use 'no where to go' as a excuse. There is a lot more available for kids now, than there was years ago.
When I was a kid, there was a lot less to do, and even less places to go than there are now.
There were less TV channels, less sports facilities, less youth clubs, no internet, none of the fancy gadgets kids can play with now.
We didnt go round saying we are bored, lets break the law and terrorise people. We made our own entertainment.
Kids cannot use 'no where to go' as a excuse. There is a lot more available for kids now, than there was years ago.
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A
Anara
Some interesting sentiments expressed on this forum, I wondered what the percentage of parents to non-parents is on this thread?
I agree with much of what CJD said particularly the parts about when adults had more control over children.
For those that believe that kids these days need more discipline and maybe even a slap - 99.9% of those that commit these crimes were slapped as discipline. I have a friend who works closely with young offenders and in 35 years of doing this job she has never met/dealt with a single one that wasn't slapped/smacked as a child.
She and those she work with all believe that a huge part of the problem is the culture in this country that violence is an easy way to solve problems. Whether thats through using smacking as discipline, the easy availability of violent films & console games or the way so many parents tell their children to hit someone back if they're hit.
The really sad thing is that when a 13 year old or 10 year old shoots another child, they're still a child themselves. Children have to be taught that violence isn't the answer.
As for whoever said boys will fight & boys enjoy that kind of thing - ermm no not all boys. My brother didn't and my son most certainly does not. He is absolutely not allowed to watch anything violent on tv and most certainly not allowed any violent games for his console.
I agree with much of what CJD said particularly the parts about when adults had more control over children.
For those that believe that kids these days need more discipline and maybe even a slap - 99.9% of those that commit these crimes were slapped as discipline. I have a friend who works closely with young offenders and in 35 years of doing this job she has never met/dealt with a single one that wasn't slapped/smacked as a child.
She and those she work with all believe that a huge part of the problem is the culture in this country that violence is an easy way to solve problems. Whether thats through using smacking as discipline, the easy availability of violent films & console games or the way so many parents tell their children to hit someone back if they're hit.
The really sad thing is that when a 13 year old or 10 year old shoots another child, they're still a child themselves. Children have to be taught that violence isn't the answer.
As for whoever said boys will fight & boys enjoy that kind of thing - ermm no not all boys. My brother didn't and my son most certainly does not. He is absolutely not allowed to watch anything violent on tv and most certainly not allowed any violent games for his console.
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