Starmer speach

[Duke Fame]

The much anticipated Kier Starmer speech / Labour announcement comes along but what about business?

It included 5 national missions is very Peter Mandleson, much like a wishy washy version of New Labour's 5 pledges of 1997 but even less specific. Starmer continues to avoid giving any policy as such, simply a re-hash of visions, aims etc that somehow he will make things better.

He gave away nothing to hang your hat on with apart from a reiteration they will not consider rejoining the EU or SM. There was literally nothing in it for business and small businesses may as well not exsist as far as the main parties politics in UK politics are concerned.

IMHO, there is little to attract my to vote for anybody right now except for the Lib Dems who will rejoin the Single Market (but not much else)

 

[Newchodge]

The much anticipated Kier Starmer speech / Labour announcement comes along but what about business?

It included 5 national missions is very Peter Mandleson, much like a wishy washy version of New Labour's 5 pledges of 1997 but even less specific. Starmer continues to avoid giving any policy as such, simply a re-hash of visions, aims etc that somehow he will make things better.

He gave away nothing to hang your hat on with apart from a reiteration they will not consider rejoining the EU or SM. There was literally nothing in it for business and small businesses may as well not exsist as far as the main parties politics in UK politics are concerned.

IMHO, there is little to attract my to vote for anybody right now except for the Lib Dems who will rejoin the Single Market (but not much else)

You need to waitfor the manifesto. This is just for publicity.

 

[Duke Fame]

You need to waitfor the manifesto. This is just for publicity.

Manifesto or suicide note?

Rachel Reeve made a long speech a few months ago which was long but said nothing but how much better bigger etc they would be. Certainly at the moment, there is no incentive to vote for them. All we have is their track record which is not very good.

 

[Newchodge]

Manifesto or suicide note?

Rachel Reeve made a long speech a few months ago which was long but said nothing but how much better bigger etc they would be. Certainly at the moment, there is no incentive to vote for them. All we have is their track record which is not very good.

You can't vote for them now. There is no election. Keir Starmer doers not have a track record. The track record of the current lot couldn't be worse.

 

[Duke Fame]

You can't vote for them now. There is no election. Keir Starmer doers not have a track record. The track record of the current lot couldn't be worse.

I was referring to Labour's track record.

Currently, the only people saying anything positive are the Lib dems whom I agree with to rejoin the Single Market. The problem is in other areas, they are terribly wishy washy too.

 

[Newchodge]

I was referring to Labour's track record.

Currently, the only people saying anything positive are the Lib dems whom I agree with to rejoin the Single Market. The problem is in other areas, they are terribly wishy washy too.

To my mind the only potentially good outcome is for Labour to win, immediately introduce a proper form of proportionate representation, then call a further general election. Won't happen though.

The Lib Dems proved themselves untrustworthy and useless in the coalition (their only track record)

Labour appears to be going down the Tory lite route with little intention of anything other than Tory based policies 'done better'.

I can think of nothing to say about the Tories that I, as a moderator, could allow.

Frankly, I despair.

 

[Clinton]

There is reason to be grumpy when the light at the end of the tunnel is ....Labour!

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

There is reason to be grumpy when the light at the end of the tunnel is ....Labour!

I agree and with no viable alternative I would put good money on a hung parliament on the morning after a general election .
If Farage returns we could also see the vote almost equally spread over four parties

 

[japancool]

Labour appears to be going down the Tory lite route with little intention of anything other than Tory based policies 'done better'.

Even worse, he's going down the Blair route.

 

[Newchodge]

Even worse, he's going down the Blair route.

That WAS the Blair route!

 

[japancool]

If I believed Starmer when he says the economy needs a fundamental rethink (and I could vote), I'd vote for him.

I don't.

Now that he sees power in his grasp, he's dropped all of the promises he made when running for Labour leader.

 

[DontAsk]

You need to waitfor the manifesto. This is just for publicity.

Why? If they want any chance of success they need to start saying things with some substance. They must already know what will be in the manifesto otherwise, if an election were called now they would presumably have to produce a manifesto in a rush without really thinking things through.

 

[japancool]

Where's the policy on:

Tuition fees?
Transport infrastructure?
Electricity prices being linked to gas prices?
Refugees and asylum?
Job creation?
Education?
Trade?
Anything?

 

[Newchodge]

Why? If they want any chance of success they need to start saying things with some substance. They must already know what will be in the manifesto otherwise, if an election were called now they would presumably have to produce a manifesto in a rush without really thinking things through.

The speech today was to gain publicity and (hopefully) to assess the public response to it, in order to inform the manifesto.

 

[japancool]

And today's big political story?

Football regulation.

Bread and circuses, except without the bread.

 

[Newchodge]

Where's the policy on:

Tuition fees?
Transport infrastructure?
Electricity prices being linked to gas prices?
Refugees and asylum?
Job creation?
Education?
Trade?
Anything?

They appear to have decided that policies are dangerous and their best route to power is not to have any policies, just concentrate on not actually being the Tories, who don't have policies on those things either, despite the fact that they are in Government.

 

[Duke Fame]

To my mind the only potentially good outcome is for Labour to win, immediately introduce a proper form of proportionate representation, then call a further general election. Won't happen though.

The Lib Dems proved themselves untrustworthy and useless in the coalition (their only track record)

Labour appears to be going down the Tory lite route with little intention of anything other than Tory based policies 'done better'.

I can think of nothing to say about the Tories that I, as a moderator, could allow.

Frankly, I despair.

Woah, "Lib Dems proved themselves untrustworthy and useless in the coalition" apart from:

Reducing unemployment by 25%
Increasing employment to an all time high
Economic growth
liberalising same sex marriage (admittedly this was before Tim Farrons' rather illiberal time)

 

[Newchodge]

Woah, "Lib Dems proved themselves untrustworthy and useless in the coalition" apart from:

Reducing unemployment by 25%
Increasing employment to an all time high
Economic growth
liberalising same sex marriage (admittedly this was before Tim Farrons' rather illiberal time)

Tuition fees
Austerity

 

[Duke Fame]

The speech today was to gain publicity and (hopefully) to assess the public response to it, in order to inform the manifesto.

That’s the problem with Starmer is that he blows in the wind and will get himself in knots trying to please everyone.

In opposition they were going to nationalise everything up until today’s speech where he said they wouldn’t (probably)

They are against corporation tax cuts, against NI cuts, against income tax cuts.

They wanted to give more money to local authorities and now they are not sure.

I can’t stand party politics, I don’t get how people can support a political party like they do a football team but they need some sort of policy

 

[Duke Fame]

And today's big political story?

Football regulation.

Bread and circuses, except without the bread.

Yep, we really need the state to run football. I suppose will see Southampton somehow avoiding relegation with Sunak's intervention.

It's a pity Matt Hancock is out of favour, he could pass legislation for united to defeat Manu on Sunday.

 

[Duke Fame]

Tuition fees
Austerity

Austerity was introduced by Darling? I thought tuition fees pre-dated Lib Dems but nevertheless, both were good IMHO.

 

[japancool]

I suppose will see Southampton somehow avoiding relegation with Sunak's intervention.

As a Southampton fan, I suspect it will need divine intervention.

 

[Duke Fame]

Why? If they want any chance of success they need to start saying things with some substance. They must already know what will be in the manifesto otherwise, if an election were called now they would presumably have to produce a manifesto in a rush without really thinking things through.

Exactly this, there is no need to wait for public opinion. The government needs to come up with the policies they feel will improve things for the people, not the other way around, otherwise, why have a big govt / state?

 

[Duke Fame]

As a Southampton fan, I suspect it will need divine intervention.

Well, Sunak is a saints fan and the IEA guy who was supposed to be sounding out Liz Truss is a saints fan, if the government wants to interfere with football, for Southampton, this may be a good time.

That said, the IEA chap (Mark Littlewood??) thought it a terrible idea.

 

[Newchodge]

That said, the IEA chap (Mark Littlewood??) thought it a terrible idea.

Bloody hell, it must be brilliant, then. Who's have thought?

 

[Duke Fame]

Bloody hell, it must be brilliant, then. Who's have thought?

If Mark Littlewood still has the govt’s ear, he appears ideologically opposed to the govt gerrymandering Southamton’s survival in the premier league.

That said, I find the IEA discussions excellent and Mark Littlewood is usually spot on.

 

[IanSuth]

Austerity was introduced by Darling? I thought tuition fees pre-dated Lib Dems but nevertheless, both were good IMHO.

Tuition fees are a massive trap waiting to bite the economy in the decades to come.

Every student at uni now will leave with a min of £50k of debt, some has been accruing interest since day 1 of their course (the first £9k of tuition), assume they take 2 years to get to the payment threshold (currently £25.3k) , after that for the next 30 (soon to be 40) years so until they are 53/63 they will be paying an extra 9% tax rate on any income over that threshold. The VAST majority will never pay it back so it will forever be a massive extra tax burden on them reducing their spending power.

The last guess i saw was that a teacher who starts as a graduate straight after uni and progresses at an average pace in secondary education will likely just about pay off their full loan by the time they hit the 30 years. Anyone in a lesser paid role or who takes a career break (for instance to have children) won't.

You are looking currently at someone just going over the 50k ish threshold into higher rate having a marginal effective income taxation of nearly 50%. 40% (income tax) + 9% (student loan repayment) = 49% (add in compulsory pension contributions and it goes over 50% but you get that back 1 day)

Not seen the latest figures but in 2019 that was 25% of the working population, so 75% will never repay it and always be paying that 9% or not have any money anyway (if under threshold)

So where is all the spare disposable income to grow the economy going to come from (especially when you factor in property prices)

If a well paid (in general terms) teacher can only just cover their loan what do you think it will mean for public sector pay demands in years to come and therefore govt finances ?

Tuition fee loans are a massive debt black hole waiting to bite in I would guess by 2042 latest (when the first of the 30 year debts on 3x9k tuition start to have to be written off) even if not the drag on disposable income which is already happening.

 

[Duke Fame]

Tuition fees are a massive trap waiting to bite the economy in the decades to come.

Every student at uni now will leave with a min of £50k of debt, some has been accruing interest since day 1 of their course (the first £9k of tuition), assume they take 2 years to get to the payment threshold (currently £25.3k) , after that for the next 30 (soon to be 40) years so until they are 53/63 they will be paying an extra 9% tax rate on any income over that threshold. The VAST majority will never pay it back so it will forever be a massive extra tax burden on them reducing their spending power.

The last guess i saw was that a teacher who starts as a graduate straight after uni and progresses at an average pace in secondary education will likely just about pay off their full loan by the time they hit the 30 years. Anyone in a lesser paid role or who takes a career break (for instance to have children) won't.

You are looking currently at someone just going over the 50k ish threshold into higher rate having a marginal effective income taxation of nearly 50%. 40% (income tax) + 9% (student loan repayment) = 49% (add in compulsory pension contributions and it goes over 50% but you get that back 1 day)

Not seen the latest figures but in 2019 that was 25% of the working population, so 75% will never repay it and always be paying that 9% or not have any money anyway (if under threshold)

So where is all the spare disposable income to grow the economy going to come from (especially when you factor in property prices)

If a well paid (in general terms) teacher can only just cover their loan what do you think it will mean for public sector pay demands in years to come and therefore govt finances ?

Tuition fee loans are a massive debt black hole waiting to bite in I would guess by 2042 latest (when the first of the 30 year debts on 3x9k tuition start to have to be written off) even if not the drag on disposable income which is already happening.

In terms of being a time bomb of a liability for the government, I agree, there are many graduates who will not repay.

Tuition fees are really just a graduate tax, you pay back when you earn over average salaries. That is fair enough, everyone who goes to uni is over 18 so can make decisions for themselves and they understand the deal they are getting into (moreover they should, otherwise, they need to question whether they are university material). It's also fair on the guys who decide to crack on into employment and 18 without the university education.

Personally, I think 18 year olds do need to think if university is the right path given the cost.

 

[Clodbuster]

proportionate representation,

Heaven forbid, never results in a stable government and often results in repeated elections.

 

[Newchodge]

Heaven forbid, never results in a stable government and often results in repeated elections.

Forfend. Heaven forfend.

 

[Duke Fame]

Heaven forbid, never results in a stable government and often results in repeated elections.

Labour aren't going to bring in PR unless forced into it by a coalition partner. It would be turkeys and Christmas as with PR there would be no need for a Labour party and possibly not a conservative party.

I'd welcome PR

 

[Newchodge]

Labour aren't going to bring in PR unless forced into it by a coalition partner. It would be turkeys and Christmas as with PR there would be no need for a Labour party and possibly not a conservative party.

I'd welcome PR

It is Labour party policy, since the last confernce. Everyone expects Starmer to ignore that.

 

[Duke Fame]

It is Labour party policy, since the last confernce. Everyone expects Starmer to ignore that.

Don't you love pick and mix democracy?

To be fair, it would be scary to think the policy of the country was decided upon by a load of hey nonny-nonny Labour Party activists who have enough spare time to go to party political conference. At least the ones at the Tory conference are retired and have worked for a living.

 

[IanSuth]

In terms of being a time bomb of a liability for the government, I agree, there are many graduates who will not repay.

Tuition fees are really just a graduate tax, you pay back when you earn over average salaries. That is fair enough, everyone who goes to uni is over 18 so can make decisions for themselves and they understand the deal they are getting into (moreover they should, otherwise, they need to question whether they are university material). It's also fair on the guys who decide to crack on into employment and 18 without the university education.

Personally, I think 18 year olds do need to think if university is the right path given the cost.

It is not "MANY GRADUATES" it is "MOST GRADUATES" will never repay

So with a country where >50% are pushed to go to uni we are burdening a huge number with an extra 9% tax which will reduce there disposable income in the future compared to the generation they replace.

Think about it

I am 52 and my 1st year at uni was the last year that grants had risen, my 2nd year was the first year of loans (c£400 woop woop), mine was paid back at £8 a month decades ago, I bought my first house for £50k in 1994 paid my mortgages off (after moving to a 4/5 bed semi) and my income is largely disposable spending power now.

My dopplegange starting uni in 2012 is now 20 years out of uni but he had a debt of £50k he is still paying back as a 9% tax, he bought his house a year after graduation for £200k (value in 2017 of house in same street) so is unlikely to moved to a larger place and cleared his much larger mortgage. So he will have a much lower disposable income for the same salary.

This is the danger to the economy - reduced spending power of the population

Also the govt is going to have to stop listing all those student loans as an asset on their balance sheet as they will never be repaid

 

[Duke Fame]

It is not "MANY GRADUATES" it is "MOST GRADUATES" will never repay

So with a country where >50% are pushed to go to uni we are burdening a huge number with an extra 9% tax which will reduce there disposable income in the future compared to the generation they replace.

Think about it

I am 52 and my 1st year at uni was the last year that grants had risen, my 2nd year was the first year of loans (c£400 woop woop), mine was paid back at £8 a month decades ago, I bought my first house for £50k in 1994 paid my mortgages off (after moving to a 4/5 bed semi) and my income is largely disposable spending power now.

My dopplegange starting uni in 2012 is now 20 years out of uni but he had a debt of £50k he is still paying back as a 9% tax, he bought his house a year after graduation for £200k (value in 2017 of house in same street) so is unlikely to moved to a larger place and cleared his much larger mortgage. So he will have a much lower disposable income for the same salary.

This is the danger to the economy - reduced spending power of the population

Also the govt is going to have to stop listing all those student loans as an asset on their balance sheet as they will never be repaid

It's a good job you didn't pay as if you think someone who started uni in 2012 is now 20 years out of uni, you'd rightfully demand a refund on that university education!

Alternatively, if your doppleganger studied Quantum Physics and relativistic modelling, he got excellent value as he's used that education to master the art of time travel and he could monetise that beyond the cost of his course.

Assuming you meant 10 years, I see your point.

I too enjoyed a grant and free course fees but even at the time, I always wondered why should I expect the taxpayer to pay. I was hoping to use that education to get a bigger salary and leap frog those who were paying my fees which seemed rather absurd.

Your point on there being a danger to the economy is not relevant here as your doppelgänger may have lower surplus money, he's paying back the money that everyone else was going to pay anyway. There is not less money in the economy as a result, there is exactly the same amount, it's just paid by the guy who gets the direct benefit from the education.

The reality is, nobody is pushed to go to university, as over 18s. it's adults making adult decisions to extend there education via university and they have to make the decision if they feel they will get sufficient earning power from that education to create positive cashflows.

Again reality is that without students paying for their further education, there sill not be the number of university students and many of those university cities will have to rely of more overseas students or simply contract. That may be fine but the big university populations are in 'interesting' cities that suffered from de-industrialisation in the late 90s and through the 00s. Newcastle for instance has seen a huge industry around university which has replaced and surpassed old industry, that would go without the loan system.

 

[DontAsk]

I too enjoyed a grant and free course fees but even at the time, I always wondered why should I expect the taxpayer to pay. I was hoping to use that education to get a bigger salary and leap frog those who were paying my fees which seemed rather absurd.

I didn't wonder, or hope, I KNEW that I would get a bigger salary and pay more tax and more than pay for all the education and health care I have received. I have done that in spades.

 

[Newchodge]

At least the ones at the Tory conference are retired and have worked for a living.

That is a very Tory view. Not everyone who is retired has worked for a living.

 

[japancool]

At least the ones at the Tory conference are retired and have worked for a living.

Because they did such a good job in picking Liz Truss.

 

[simon field]

Is the OP looking for some form of effective opposition?

in sir Caviar Starmer?

?

 

[Fagin2021]

Don't you love pick and mix democracy?

To be fair, it would be scary to think the policy of the country was decided upon by a load of hey nonny-nonny Labour Party activists who have enough spare time to go to party political conference. At least the ones at the Tory conference are retired and have worked for a living.

Democracy be stuffed.

Personally, I'd like to see a system where every ballot paper had 5 simple, multi-choice questions on the back. Like...

Who lives at 11 Downing Street ? Is it..
1. The Prime Minister ?
2. The King of England ?
3. The Chancellor of the Exchequer ?

Get 2 wrong and your ballot paper goes in the bin.