Starmer speach

[Duke Fame]

Do you mean they pay them a salary?

I meant more that without people being properly educated, we would have ahuge problem. I believe all education should be provided free to those who are offered a place. FE and HE should not cost the individual anything, any more than primary or secondary education.

To me, your system will simply make the rich richer and paid for by the poorest.

 

[japancool]

I think the reality is the likes of nursing and social working really doesn't need to be a university course and retention would maybe easier if that wasn't the case.

Nursing is a very specialised skill, especially once you get into specialist and practitioner nurses. You have to have a grounding on human biology at the very minimum. I've been around the hospital system enough to know how much medical knowledge these people need to do their jobs.

 

[japancool]

To me, your system will simply make the rich richer and paid for by the poorest.

To me, I reckon it would lift more people out of poverty, while being paid for by those who can afford it, i.e. the richest.

It's very simple - do we consider a highly skilled, educated society to be an important priority?

 

[Duke Fame]

Nursing is a very specialised skill, especially once you get into specialist and practitioner nurses. You have to have a grounding on human biology at the very minimum. I've been around the hospital system enough to know how much medical knowledge these people need to do their jobs.

Yes, at the specialist and practitioner nursing levels, there needs to be skills but from my understanding, there is a problem with getting people to do the basics that used to be done via vocational on the job training.

The RCN pushed for nursing to be a more academic profession and I don't know it that's been successful at a practical level. What it does give the RCN is leverage in wage negotiations as it increases scarcity of labour

 

[Newchodge]

To me, your system will simply make the rich richer and paid for by the poorest.

And the current sysytem doesn't do that?

 

[Newchodge]

Yes, at the specialist and practitioner nursing levels, there needs to be skills but from my understanding, there is a problem with getting people to do the basics that used to be done via vocational on the job training.

That is why they have nursing auxilliaries.

 

[Duke Fame]

To me, I reckon it would lift more people out of poverty, while being paid for by those who can afford it, i.e. the richest.

It's very simple - do we consider a highly skilled, educated society to be an important priority?

Education does lift people out of poverty but taxing those who miss out on a university education in order to give those who wanted a uni education an easier time doesn't seem fair.

 

[Duke Fame]

And the current sysytem doesn't do that?

It always will, however, at least the student loan system allows those who benefit the most to pay their way

 

[IanSuth]

I disagree with the preferential treatment of the public sector. The issue will be that there will be an incentive to go overseas, it certainly will not depress wage demands.


I do think loans are fairer than a graduate tax as a graduate tax will see the best simply work overseas.

The 9% is not a 9% 'graduate tax' but simply 9% on the marginal premium earned. So someone on £30k will only be paying 1.2% for their education.

Where we are at present there is an incentive to go overseas, the idea of writing it off after 10 years is it incentivices coal face public sector workers to at least give 10 years

on £30k a graduate would be paying 9% of £4625 or £416.25 which is only 0.8% of a £50k debt (the average size) so they wouldnt even be covering the interest. That is my point, the graduate on a median graduate salary wont be clearing their debt.

If you think that a rise in income tax depresses consumer demand then you have to logically agree that extra "graduate tax" of 1.3% (£416/30,000) for 50% of that demographic will suppress consumer by a larger and larger amount every year as more and more graduates enter the workforce replacing those retiring who had no student debt. (those aged 52 now are the first who had any loans)

 

[Newchodge]

Education does lift people out of poverty but taxing those who miss out on a university education in order to give those who wanted a uni education an easier time doesn't seem fair.

Much of my taxes goes on educating children. I have no children but I would not expect to have to pay less because of that. What is wrong with the current sysytem is that the poorest pay a much higher proportion of their income in tax than the wealthiest. Fix that first.

 

[IanSuth]

It always will, however, at least the student loan system allows those who benefit the most to pay their way

No

If we only educated about 20% to degree level it might, but we are at the point now where degrees are being demanded for roles that quite frankly do not need 3 years at university racking up £50k of debt to do.

When i started in IT recruitment in 1993 non graduates often went into Operation working on looking after mainframes, most IT graduates went into the development route as programmers.

Now a system administrator in a data centre which is to all intents and purposes the same as that old "ops" job requires a degree. The systems are no harder to understand (in many ways they are easier) so why the need for the degree. A lot is because us owned companies demand a degree but US first degrees sit between a UK degree and ALevels.

We have gone past the point where MOST graduates actually gain financially from their degree, they are for many a way to keep people out of the workforce for 3 years thus make the dole q smaller

 

[japancool]

That is why they have nursing auxilliaries.

Indeed - Band 3 and below (what used to be auxiliary nurses) don't require a degree (and aren't members of the RCN).

 

[Duke Fame]

Much of my taxes goes on educating children. I have no children but I would not expect to have to pay less because of that. What is wrong with the current sysytem is that the poorest pay a much higher proportion of their income in tax than the wealthiest. Fix that first.

So you support the Lib Dem policy of shifting the poorest out of taxation?

As we discussed re. NI & tax bands, the tax bands have increased under the coalition and Tories far more than how Gordon Brown taxed the poorest.

 

[Newchodge]

So you support the Lib Dem policy of shifting the poorest out of taxation?

As we discussed re. NI & tax bands, the tax bands have increased under the coalition and Tories far more than how Gordon Brown taxed the poorest.

I wasn't aware it was Lib Dem policy.

I certainly support moving the tax free alowance up, considerably. It is ludicrous that people pay taxes to the government and then receive government support to survive.

 

[japancool]

When i started in IT recruitment in 1993 non graduates often went into Operation working on looking after mainframes, most IT graduates went into the development route as programmers.

Now a system administrator in a data centre which is to all intents and purposes the same as that old "ops" job requires a degree. The systems are no harder to understand (in many ways they are easier) so why the need for the degree. A lot is because us owned companies demand a degree but US first degrees sit between a UK degree and ALevels.

Yeah, the stuff our sysadmin does isn't really anything more complex than setting up and installing windows (I mean, comparatively). You just need experience on that particular system and its associated ecosystem.

I don't know how much IT degrees have changed since I did mine, but you wouldn't have learned the ins and outs of configuring and licensing Azure in a general IT degree. What you might have learned is best practises for setting up networks and security, but I'm dubious about that.

 

[Duke Fame]

No

If we only educated about 20% to degree level it might, but we are at the point now where degrees are being demanded for roles that quite frankly do not need 3 years at university racking up £50k of debt to do.

When i started in IT recruitment in 1993 non graduates often went into Operation working on looking after mainframes, most IT graduates went into the development route as programmers.

Now a system administrator in a data centre which is to all intents and purposes the same as that old "ops" job requires a degree. The systems are no harder to understand (in many ways they are easier) so why the need for the degree. A lot is because us owned companies demand a degree but US first degrees sit between a UK degree and ALevels.

We have gone past the point where MOST graduates actually gain financially from their degree, they are for many a way to keep people out of the workforce for 3 years thus make the dole q smaller

I agree, teachers have given their pupils the idea that they must go on to uni.

As we've discussed above, I think most who finish their A' levels would benefit from a couple of years in employment to decide which direction they want to go.

If graduates don't gain financially from their degrees, they don't pay anything back. I don't see that as a good thing, I suspect we both agree that many undergraduates are wasting their time but it's their choice, they are adults.

 

[Newchodge]

I wasn't aware it was Lib Dem policy.

I certainly support moving the tax free alowance up, considerably. It is ludicrous that people pay taxes to the government and then receive government support to survive.

In fact, simplify the personal tax system. £20,000 tax free allowance for everyone, transferable between partners if one has less income that the allowance.
All income, whatever the source, taxed at 20%. Rate to rise to 40% for all income over £100,000. Bring back hanging for tax evasion and the birch for tax avoidance.

Then deal with the corruption of ltd companies.

 

[Duke Fame]

I wasn't aware it was Lib Dem policy.

I certainly support moving the tax free alowance up, considerably. It is ludicrous that people pay taxes to the government and then receive government support to survive.

I agree, it's been that way ever since I existed. I tend to think the more the state pays people to do nothing, we should not expect much in return.

It was Lib Dem policy since 2010, a David Laws policy, remember him? Ed Balls outed him as labour were scared of him.

 

[IanSuth]

Whilst this is true, society also pays for them.

I think the reality is the likes of nursing and social working really doesn't need to be a university course and retention would maybe easier if that wasn't the case.

Nursing does now as they do a lot of what was done by Doctors and HCA's do a lot of what was nursing.

This is because of the hard cap on trainee dr numbers which artificially reduces supply so the workload has been shifted onto nurses making them need degrees and saving nobody anything on average

 

[IanSuth]

In fact, simplify the personal tax system. £20,000 tax free allowance for everyone, transferable between partners if one has less income that the allowance.
All income, whatever the source, taxed at 20%. Rate to rise to 40% for all income over £100,000. Bring back hanging for tax evasion and the birch for tax avoidance.

Then deal with the corruption of ltd companies.

I could go with that

 

[Duke Fame]

In fact, simplify the personal tax system. £20,000 tax free allowance for everyone, transferable between partners if one has less income that the allowance.
All income, whatever the source, taxed at 20%. Rate to rise to 40% for all income over £100,000. Bring back hanging for tax evasion and the birch for tax avoidance.

Then deal with the corruption of ltd companies.

£20,000 is a little high but I'd agree, the Tax and NI bands could start at £14,000. Remove the NI upper limit and 40% thereafter is fair (I think the sweet spot is ~35% so would go for that).

Transferrable allowance between married persons was a Tory policy, much ctriqued by Labour.

What corruption of Ltd companies? we are aa business forum, that seems rather a strange accusation.

 

[Newchodge]

£20,000 is a little high but I'd agree, the Tax and NI bands could start at £14,000. Remove the NI upper limit and 40% thereafter is fair (I think the sweet spot is ~35% so would go for that).

Transferrable allowance between married persons was a Tory policy, much ctriqued by Labour.

I didn't mention married people. The Tory policy is, of course, direct discrimination on the grounds of marital status.

 

[japancool]

Equalise the tax-free allowance and UC thresholds, so that if you're on UC, you pay no tax on income. Otherwise, the government is taking with one hand and giving with the other.

 

[japancool]

While we're at it, abolish VAT completely and raise the lost income through income tax.

VAT is a regressive tax that hits the poor the hardest.

 

[Newchodge]

Equalise the tax-free allowance and UC thresholds, so that if you're on UC, you pay no tax on income. Otherwise, the government is taking with one hand and giving with the other.

That sounds good, but UC payments vary month to month for people with variable incomes. Plus, today's news that it is about £140/month short of what is needed, ought to be fixed first.

 

[IanSuth]

What corruption of Ltd companies? we are aa business forum, that seems rather a strange accusation.

PSC's

People using the ltd route as a means to reduce tax liability when not really a company

 

[Newchodge]

PSC's

People using the ltd route as a means to reduce tax liability when not really a company

Also multi nationals shifting their income around the world to avoid paying tax where the moeny is earned;
Companies claiming tax allowances to which they are not entitled and paying executives in imaginative ways to avoid them paying tax;
Companies claiming government support to which they are not entitled (BBLs anyone?)

 

[Duke Fame]

I didn't mention married people. The Tory policy is, of course, direct discrimination on the grounds of marital status.

TBPH, that is the only way to do it, otherwise it will be wide open to abuse.

 

[Duke Fame]

PSC's

People using the ltd route as a means to reduce tax liability when not really a company

Persons of significant control? I'm an accountant by trade, albeit not a tax accountant but can you tell me how this is done?

 

[Duke Fame]

Also multi nationals shifting their income around the world to avoid paying tax where the moeny is earned;
Companies claiming tax allowances to which they are not entitled and paying executives in imaginative ways to avoid them paying tax;
Companies claiming government support to which they are not entitled (BBLs anyone?)

What are these imaginative ways of paying executives to avoid tax? Sounds great!

All I can think of are share options which you really don't want to ban.

Again, I can't believe someone on a business forum would be critical of the bounce back loans, I suspect most of us would be bankrupt without them.

 

[Newchodge]

Persons of significant control? I'm an accountant by trade, albeit not a tax accountant but can you tell me how this is done?

Personal Service Companies. Beloved (previously) of Local Authority executives who took redundancy then returned to their old job as a contractor, paid through their Personal Service (limited) Companies.

 

[Newchodge]

Again, I can't believe someone on a business forum would be critical of the bounce back loans, I suspect most of us would be bankrupt without them.

Are you seriously suggesting that, being members of a business forum, we should ignore bare faced frauds carried out by businesses?

 

[IanSuth]

Persons of significant control? I'm an accountant by trade, albeit not a tax accountant but can you tell me how this is done?

You create a 1 person company you use to invoice for the work you do, pay yourself a salary equal to tax allowance and dividends. You also put all expenses you can through company.

IR35 is ish sorting it but in the past huge abuse in IT sector. I had a mate who upon graduating went to work for his dad as a "contractor" through this method, his father was also working as a contractor. (this is before the crackdowns)

He wanted a new motorcycle, so rather than pay £10k for it from his post tax earnings (and in fact would have been a loan so interest as well), the company bought it removing £10k from bottom line of pre tax profits, he was given use of the bike (which actually at the time counted as a commercial vehicle so a perk equal to 10% of value), and company paid insurance. His personal "cost" of the bike was the tax on £1k of perk and his company tax liability was reduced plus the company now had an asset as well.
His office was his house so
1. He paid himself rent from the company and the company also paid for an ISDN line (as i said was a while ago)
2. He claimed travel expenses from his office to the client (even though it was the same client for 2 years which was working via his dad for a large bank)
3. Claimed back for subsistence costs and hospitality when him and his father went out on the lash
4. His girlfriend did "admin" work for him paying her a wage that took her up to the tax threshold and not beyond.

etc etc

 

[DontAsk]

In fact, simplify the personal tax system. £20,000 tax free allowance for everyone, transferable between partners if one has less income that the allowance.
All income, whatever the source, taxed at 20%. Rate to rise to 40% for all income over £100,000. Bring back hanging for tax evasion and the birch for tax avoidance.

Then deal with the corruption of ltd companies.

When are you standing for election? I would vote for all of that. Well, maybe not the hanging bit but certainly scare them with a mock trip to the gallows.

 

[Newchodge]

When are you standing for election? I would vote for all of that. Well, maybe not the hanging bit but certainly scare them with a mock trip to the gallows.

It's strange, isn't it. A lot of people would see this as totally fair and reasonable. But none of the politicians would countenance it. Anyway I am too old to stand and, if I did, it would be for a party that currently has only 1 MP, and is unlikely to get more until PR comes in.

 

[DontAsk]

It is ludicrous that people pay taxes to the government and then receive government support to survive.

The whole tax credit system was ludicrous when Gordon Brown introduced it. I was very happy on a very good salary (for the time) yet, as a family, we qualified to receive tax credits. It was deliberately poorly (widely) targeted to buy votes from middle income earners.

 

[Duke Fame]

You create a 1 person company you use to invoice for the work you do, pay yourself a salary equal to tax allowance and dividends. You also put all expenses you can through company.

IR35 is ish sorting it but in the past huge abuse in IT sector. I had a mate who upon graduating went to work for his dad as a "contractor" through this method, his father was also working as a contractor. (this is before the crackdowns)

He wanted a new motorcycle, so rather than pay £10k for it from his post tax earnings (and in fact would have been a loan so interest as well), the company bought it removing £10k from bottom line of pre tax profits, he was given use of the bike (which actually at the time counted as a commercial vehicle so a perk equal to 10% of value), and company paid insurance. His personal "cost" of the bike was the tax on £1k of perk and his company tax liability was reduced plus the company now had an asset as well.
His office was his house so
1. He paid himself rent from the company and the company also paid for an ISDN line (as i said was a while ago)
2. He claimed travel expenses from his office to the client (even though it was the same client for 2 years which was working via his dad for a large bank)
3. Claimed back for subsistence costs and hospitality when him and his father went out on the lash
4. His girlfriend did "admin" work for him paying her a wage that took her up to the tax threshold and not beyond.

etc etc

OK, as you say the Tories have bought in IR 35 and dividend tax has closed that off to a certain extent.

There is an advantage of doing this now but more likely to be leasing an electric vehicle but that's all part of the incentive to go electric. I disagree with it but it's what we are being told is 'green'

Otherwise, I don't see much of an issue as it's offset by the lack of job security etc.

 

[Duke Fame]

When are you standing for election? I would vote for all of that. Well, maybe not the hanging bit but certainly scare them with a mock trip to the gallows.

Take away the hanging and add the policy of rejoining the Single Market and it's more or less the Lib dem manifesto

 

[Duke Fame]

Are you seriously suggesting that, being members of a business forum, we should ignore bare faced frauds carried out by businesses?

Have you tried to start a business in the last year? Opening a bank account is now nearly impossible.

The bounce back loans were abused but there is no way the government could have closed us all down and then not offered a compensation.

 

[IanSuth]

The whole tax credit system was ludicrous when Gordon Brown introduced it. I was very happy on a very good salary (for the time) yet, as a family, we qualified to receive tax credits. It was deliberately poorly (widely) targeted to buy votes from middle income earners.

And the tax credit to pay for childcare was ludicrous by design

It was base don your earnings 1-2 yrs previous when obviously a fair number of claimants would have had someone on maternity/paternity leave due to the reason for the credit. They then paid you and then said "oh we overpaid",

we actually updated throughout the year on our changing earnings but the main ICL computer had a glitch and all accounts open when it broke were locked - that led to nearly 2 years of a biweekly physical cheque being sent to us, they also sent every letter in duplicate to both my wife and myself.

At one point within the last 2 week period as they stopped the manual cheques it went like this

!. You owe back £1500 in overpaid benefit, us "really how we told you all changes as they happened, please explain". You need a calculation notice we will send one

2. 4 letters arrive 2 for each of us, 2 saying "thank you for calling us a calculation notice will follow and 2 in same post which just said "you told us x the answer is £1200" with no explanation

3. We rang and said "how come same figures from us have now given £1200 not £1500 and we dont think even that, they said we will look back into it.

4. 2 random letter arrive saying they owe us £350 and another letter with a cheque for that

5 Another set of 2 letters saying they have looked into our appeal and they think actually they us £15

6. We rang said "please close the query, we will take the last £15 calculation as correct, we won't bank the £350 just leave it and we will move to busybees nursery vouchers instead.

7. A letter arrived with £15 cheque

6 months later they wrote to say the £350 was an error and they wanted it back (we had never cashed it) and a week later wrote to remind us to cash the £15 cheque (we didnt). Both of those letters were send in duplicate. We never heard from them again