Sold Goods through an auctionhouse - possibly stolen !!

[larkfield]

Hi, I deal in trailers from time to time, I purchased a trailer from a dealer which I sold via an auction house earlier this yeat. The buyer then sold the trailer on to a third party, today I have an email from the auctionhouse with an email attached from the Police, asking I refund the buyer ? Is this correct, all sales were B2B and not B2C.... I have asked my supplier for a refund, and he has rightly so asked for the serial numbers of the trailer to find out when it was reported Stolen. Where do I stand ?

 

[DontAsk]

I would be asking for a lot more details. Crime number at the very least unless it's on the e-mail from the police.

Has your buyer actually refunded the third party?

 

[larkfield]

The Buyer has not refunded the third party, there is a crime number and the Police Officer said he would like to see the third party refunded ?? I didnt know Police officers could act as judge and jury ?

 

[simon field]

The Buyer has not refunded the third party, there is a crime number and the Police Officer said he would like to see the third party refunded ?? I didnt know Police officers could act as judge and jury ?

They can’t.

Ask for the serial number of the trailer.

 

[intheTRADE]

As @simon field quite rightly states, a police officer cannot act as judge and jury.

Feel free to remind him of that when requesting the serial number of the trailer

 

[fisicx]

I’m totally confused. The trailer has passed through 4 people:

Dealer > You > Buyer > someone else

The auction house acted as a broker in this chain. Once the buyer has paid for the trailer your part in the process is complete. If the buyer then sells on the trailer to someone else that has nothing to do with you or the auction house.

 

[paulears]

That chain should go back further to the person who originally had it stolen. That person ethically is the one who needs the value of the stolen goods. if the chain is ten people long, then each person pays him 10%, but some in the chain will have made lots of money and others less. Legally, every buyer sues the seller they bought from for their loss If the seller wont cough up. As far as I can find out, common practice is that the last person in the chain loses out. They seem to try to then sue their seller, when the goods return to the owner. It’s a mess but multiple county courts are the only way I guess?

 

[WaveJumper]

And let's not forget the original owner may well have been paid out by an insurance company so I wonder where they may come into the picture ...... they might won't their property back to re-sell and cover their costs which is how the police picked up on this in the first place

 

[Mark T Jones]

There is undoubtedly a big chunk missing from this story.

My first line would be to point out that you bought and sold in good faith, b 2 b, so that's an end to the matter

See how it unravels.

Incidentally, a police offer would be more interested in finding the details than in demanding money

 

[Frank the Insurance guy]

There is a law surrounding this - I think its called wrongful conversion. I have come across it with stolen cars but it applies to all property.

Despite anyone paying for it, title remains with the original owner - so in this case the trailer goes back to the owner. The sales are therefore void (As seller failed to fulfil the contract by provison of the goods sol. it is therefore customary for all parties in the chain to refund - court action by any buyer would be a simple process and the seller will lose the case!

If you are not sure, get some legal advice (If you have a business insurance policy, many will include a free telephone legal helpline that you can call for free advice).

 

[Financial-Modeller]

The role of the police is to investigate the crime, which was theft, with the aim of persuading the CPS that there is sufficient evidence to prosecute the suspected thief.

You have a receipt from the dealer that you purchased from and with no reason to suspect that you did not buy the goods in good faith, there is no need for correspondence between you and the police or you and your buyer.

If an insurer is involved, they will contact you directly.

 

[IanSuth]

Trailer we use on our bike rally went through this process.

Guy we know did the original conversion into a display trailer for use at events, it was stolen and insurance paid out, several years later at a show the guy who built it realised the centre module of a display of 4x4's at an event was the trailer in question (modified), he notified event security, the police and the exhibitor. It was seized, the insurer asked if he could transport and hold it which he did, they after a couple of months they asked if he wanted to have it back in lieu of storage fees which he agreed to.

Hence why it is used by us as a control point - basically he built it, got paid for it and built a replacement for the original; customer (and got paid for that) but now has it back. No idea what happened to any vendors in the chain between thief and 4x4 sales people, it is almost definitely currently legally the property of the insurance company who paid out the original theft victim

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

My first line would be to point out that you bought and sold in good faith, b 2 b, so that's an end to the matter

I don't think it is.

B2B or B2C will probably not matter.

I know someone who bought a car which was stolen and the car was returned to the owner without compensation to the last buyer.

 

[Frank the Insurance guy]

You have a receipt from the dealer that you purchased from and with no reason to suspect that you did not buy the goods in good faith, there is no need for correspondence between you and the police or you and your buyer.

If the buyer contacts you for a refund, give it to them. If you do not they will likely take you to court and you will lose. Whether you bought the goods in good faith or not, it was not your property to sell and the buyer has not received what they paid you for. You have therefore failed in your contract to provide the required item and the courts will therefore order you to make a refund.

Alternatively, if you can resupply a similar trailer for free, you should be ok.

If an insurer is involved, they will contact you directly.

Very unlikely - the goods have been found and therefore insurers have the trailer. They will either return to the owner (and get their claims money back) or take ownership themselves and sell the trailer to recover the claims money paid.

 

[Mark T Jones]

I don't think it is.

B2B or B2C will probably not matter.

I know someone who bought a car which was stolen and the car was returned to the owner without compensation to the last buyer.

I was refering to a negotiating stance (on slighly dubious information) rather than a final legal outcome.

 

[MOIC]

I purchased a trailer from a dealer

What has the dealer said, if anything?

 

[Frank the Insurance guy]

What has the dealer said, if anything?

The dealer will be in the same position as you - ie. they will need to refund you as they have not fulfilled the contract by provided the trailer you paid for.

 

[MOIC]

Sounds like the dealer will be making enquiries on his side and follow the trail, which should eventually lead to the tea leaf.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

Frank,

why do you think they will go after the OP rather than someone either side of the chain.

Surely liability lies with the person the last buyer got it from?

 

[Mark T Jones]

It's a long time since I've been involved in this (it was good sold when on finance rather than stolen).

From memory it legally passed along the line to the point of source - except that invetably someone in the chain would be bankrupt or too dangerous to deal with, so the buck stopped there.

however, to reitterate, there is significant missing information here.

 

[Frank the Insurance guy]

Frank,

why do you think they will go after the OP rather than someone either side of the chain.

Surely liability lies with the person the last buyer got it from?

Liability lies throughout the chain - the last buyer pursues refund from their seller. That seller is now out of pocket so they (as the buyer) pursue their seller, who then pursues their seller etc etc - The one most likely out of pocket is the original seller, as they are unlikely to be able to trace where they "acquired" the trailer from.

Hope that makes sense?

 

[Financial-Modeller]

If the buyer contacts you for a refund, give it to them. If you do not they will likely take you to court and you will lose. Whether you bought the goods in good faith or not, it was not your property to sell and the buyer has not received what they paid you for. You have therefore failed in your contract to provide the required item and the courts will therefore order you to make a refund.

Alternatively, if you can resupply a similar trailer for free, you should be ok.


Very unlikely - the goods have been found and therefore insurers have the trailer. They will either return to the owner (and get their claims money back) or take ownership themselves and sell the trailer to recover the claims money paid.

All good points, but my comments referred to the role of the police, who have little interest in breaches of contract law or civil redress.

 

[Frank the Insurance guy]

All good points, but my comments referred to the role of the police, who have little interest in breaches of contract law or civil redress.

No idea why the police are involved - trying to be helpful maybe?

 

[ekm]

I don't want to butt in on an area that isn't my expertise but at face value this doesn't sit right:

'today I have an email from the auctionhouse with an email attached from the Police, asking I refund the buyer'

I'd expect to be contacted by the police directly if they wanted anything to do with me and any instruction to send money to someone would be met with scorn. It's not the sort of thing I'd expect police to do.