Skeptical about SEO? Why?

[neils3]

Hi All,

I recently met a friend for coffee who owns a number of dentist practices and wanted some advice around strategies to get more enquiries online. When I mentioned SEO, his first reaction was "oh but I thought SEO doesn't exist anymore" and "isn't it just a waste of money".

Anyone who has a similar view, it would be great to understand why you're skeptical about SEO? Was it a past experience?

Also, I'm planning to use SEO as a key traffic strategy for a new website and was thinking of using this example as a way to educate and actually show you what's possible. Would this be helpful? What would you want to see?

Thanks in advance.

Neil

 

[Marek Skoczylas]

Bad experience in the past is one of the most important factor to refuse any SEO offer I think. Many entrepreneurs have bought cheapest possible SEO services, so they should be at least aware of risk need to be taken. Lack of trust for same service in future is the reason entrepreneurs search for something "more safe" - ppc, content marketin, emal marketing, offline etc.

Despite I think there are good and bad sides of this situations.

First of all - entrepreneurs are more educated about SEO, they know their needs, and decline cheap and "shady seo methods". Any similar offer to - backlinks pyramid for 30$ that get you top can not exist any more.

Those entrepreneurs who invest their time to find out effective, trusted and skilled SEO will clearly benefit.

 

[Graham Tyers]

In my experience SEO is always more popular among people who can't afford other marketing options, and less popular among those who can.

 

[Marek Skoczylas]

In my experience SEO is always more popular among people who can't afford other marketing options, and less popular among those who can.

Well your sentence is a lil bit funny and obvious same time. It is like:

In my experience ugly girls are more popular among men who can't find sexy one, and less popular among badass boys.

 

[fisicx]

Anyone who has a similar view, it would be great to understand why you're skeptical about SEO? Was it a past experience?

Because nearly everyone doing SEO (or SMM) is a snake oil salesman.

Especially when they use phrases like 'Another critical component of SEO is page rank or domain authority'. The first is fairy dust and the second is a made up number that Google isn't the slightest bit interested in.

 

[neils3]

Thanks for the initial comments.

Bad experience in the past is one of the most important factor to refuse any SEO offer

Yep, this seems to be a common experience, and have met businesses who just haven't seen any results. For example, last week spoke to one business who was talking about how their SEO agency has increased the number of links to their site but not their Google ranking and most importantly enquiries. Basically their company was building low quality links which weren't having any impact but they were using it as a way to show progress.

SEO is always more popular among people who can't afford

Can you elaborate what you mean by this, why do you think SEO is less popular for businesses who can afford marketing?

SEO (or SMM) is a snake oil salesman.

Especially when they use phrases like 'Another critical component of SEO is page rank or domain authority'

I'm guessing someone has used those phrases on you - just so I understand, is it the fact that you don't agree with those phrases as SEO factors or you are not interested in knowing that, as all you want is higher rankings and more visitors/sales?

 

[fisicx]

I'm guessing someone has used those phrases on you

Those words are on your website...

They will work on the uneducated. But anyone who has done the most basic of research will know phrases like that and: 'any business not using social media is destined to fall behind in their industry' are misleading and in many cases plain wrong.

 

[Shopclicks]

I think a lot of people are told and expect that when you get a top of page one ranking, there's a gold mine waiting for you and that's not always the case. With so many sales channels and marketing options available, relying on and paying excessive amounts for search engine optimisation is over-rated. That's assuming that the SEO business can get you on page one.

For most businesses, SEO should be just one element of a marketing plan. Building your brand and reputation through all available marketing channels will bring far more business to you than a great Google result. You can buy a great Google result. It's what you do with the visitor after the click that determines the value of the investment.

Do you need to SEO your website to be successful? In a word, no. If you're 'marketing' your website, people will find you regardless. If they found you in a Google search it's probably because they were looking for you.

 

[Graham Tyers]

Thanks for the initial comments.
Can you elaborate what you mean by this, why do you think SEO is less popular for businesses who can afford marketing?

Can you think of a major brand that puts more effort and budget into SEO than they do PPC/Email/TV/Press/Direct Mail?

 

[neils3]

in many cases plain wrong

I didn't ask for a website review, there is a separate thread for that.

Anyhow, I think you answered my question - If I've understood correctly, since you don't agree with these as indicators for SEO, you lose trust in the service provider.

Not to make this into a technical SEO debate, but domain authority is a common indicator used by many good SEOs and developed by an SEO authority - MOZ. Just like Page Rank, this may change in the future, but that's why people offering SEO need to keep up-to-date, so their clients don't need to.

 

[boring-friday]

Because its full of scumbags who don't know what they're doing who use phrases like fisicx said. 'Google certified' is another favourite of mine.

Domain authority isn't like page rank either, google actually used page rank to rank sites, they don't use domain authority

 

[fisicx]

...domain authority is a common indicator used by many good SEOs...

Really? In any case, it's not critical - which is what you say on your site. It's this sort of thing along with many other statements on your site and many other SEO practitioners that make people wary. If you want to see how to do it properly try this: http://www.freshbananas.co.uk/

PS: this wasn't a website review, it was just answering your question. But a website review might be useful, I spotted a number of things that need fixing just on the homepage.

 

[neils3]

I think a lot of people are told and expect that when you get a top of page one ranking, there's a gold mine waiting for you and that's not always the case.

Agreed, it's not for every business, and ultimately does not guarantee a positive return on investment.

For most businesses, SEO should be just one element of a marketing plan

Yep, for example, there's no point sending search traffic to a site that won't convert visitors into leads/customers, and is why we recommend making it one part of an overall inbound marketing campaign.

If they found you in a Google search it's probably because they were looking for you.

Somewhat agree - some businesses who don't invest on SEO, do rely on being found in Google when people search for them. But those investing in SEO are seeking to be found when products or services they offer are searched. This would then go back to your first point, quoted above.

 

[neils3]

Really?

Yes, Domain authority is an indicator used by SEOs, I'm not sure why you've sent a link to a DIY course, as it's not relevant here.

I did take a quick look though, and noticed the focus of that course is with on page SEO, and not off page SEO. With most of the comments here about Page Rank / Domain Authority. Again, irrelevant.

Interestingly, one of the contributors to this course that you've recommended, refers to Page Rank here - http://www.carbidemedia.com/blog/ba...7-major-factors-of-search-ranking-algorithms/

There's a reason why people spend time and money developing an expertise in a particular area. It's better to give no advice, then the wrong advice about an area you don't specialise in.

To summarise, Page Rank is no longer supported by Google, and Domain Authority is just another indicator SEOs use.

 

[Shopclicks]

Interestingly, one of the contributors to this course that you've recommended, refers to Page Rank here - http://www.carbidemedia.com/blog/ba...7-major-factors-of-search-ranking-algorithms/

Did you happen to notice the date? Out-dated & irrelevant to this thread.

 

[fisicx]

DA is an indicator some SEO's use. But it's not critical - as you claim on your site.

And PageRank is used by Google - in fact it's one of the core parts of the ranking algo. What isn't used anymore is the PR score you used to see on the Google Toolbar.

To summarise, Page Rank is no longer supported by Google....

So why do you say on your site that it's critical to SEO?

To go back to your opening post. People are skeptical about SEO practitioners because most are about as trustworthy as a politician

 

[neils3]

Did you happen to notice the date? Out-dated & irrelevant to this thread.

I did, and I need to update my page too. The whole discussion is not really relevant, however since it was raised, it helped to question the earlier responses.

But it's not critical - as you claim on your site.

I think DA is important, you clearly don't. That's fine.

It's a like anything you want to hire someone for, if they say something you don't agree with then automatically you're not going to warm to them. Either they're wrong, or your understanding of the situation is wrong.

Perhaps we need to open a new thread debating SEO factors, or maybe not.

 

[fisicx]

I didn't say it's not important if you want to use it in an assessment - it's just not critical. In the same way the PageRank score isn't critical.

When you make statements on your site claiming this, people with a little knowledge will be skeptical. Which is what you asked.

There are hundreds of SEO threads discussing SEO factors.

 

[neils3]

Ok, I don't mind changing the word from "critical" to "important" if that's all it is, but the above comments certainly don't suggest that, until later on.

'Another critical component of SEO is page rank or domain authority'. The first is fairy dust and the second is a made up number that Google isn't the slightest bit interested in.

Fairy dust? And the latter point about Google not interested, isn't even right. It's an indicator used by SEOs. Better to avoid statements like this. Since we're talking about off page SEO, and the link you sent focused on On Page SEO, there is clearly a knowledge gap.

Anyway, the overriding discussion here is about the language you use on your site, which I think is valuable for site owners.

To add, I want to ensure others reading this, who are not so familiar with SEO, understand that SEO really involves two factors:
a) Improving your website and
b) Activities completed outside of your website (e.g. link building) - this is where it gets more advanced

 

[Richard Ashton]

I 100% understand your friends feelings towards SEO, this is a common trait in many small business owners. Most business owners give SEO a try for a few months and begin to get frustrated with lack of progress but however this is just a matter of not being educated on the subject, SEO is a long term investment there is no given time frame in which good rankings can appear especially if your business services nationally or internationally, results can happen much quicker if you invest in local SEO! this will bring the competition right down.

 

[fisicx]

Fairy dust? And the latter point about Google not interested, isn't even right. It's an indicator used by SEOs. Better to avoid statements like this.

Why? DA is not a ranking signal. It's a Moz thing not a Google thing. Google doesn't care what DA you have.

And it's not just changing the word critical to important, you need to remove references to PageRank as the next few sentences on your SEO page are misleading as well.

 

[neils3]

frustrated with lack of progress but however this is just a matter of not being educated on the subject...no given time frame in which good rankings can appear especially if your business services nationally or internationally

Thanks Richard, glad to hear someone else mentioned education, I'm too finding businesses aren't educated enough which helps set expectations for both sides. I do find showing monthly progress of keywords ranking aids that education. The issue is that contracts are being sold on short term promises that were never going to deliver. Like you alluded to, for a national or international business, ranking in search can be powerful

 

[neils3]

Google doesn't care what DA you have.

I mentioned above I needed to update PR as well on my site, similar to old blog posts referencing this. And regarding DA, we're saying the same thing now. It's an indicator used by SEOs to prioritise their work. That discussion is really for another day.

 

[Clinton]

Anyone who has a similar view, it would be great to understand why you're skeptical about SEO? Was it a past experience?

Partly because I hear all this nonsense from people who claim to be SEO experts, but who know far less than they think they do. That, sir, includes you. (I've read a bit of your site)

I've been doing SEO since before SEO was invented and before Google was even dreamt about (though I've never provided any SEO services). I've worked with people who really knew their stuff - the type who actually spent hundreds of thousands testing the algos in a variety of ways, auto creating pages, faking links, manipulating PR, using 302 redirects on drop catches .... you name it. They poked, they prodded, they found what worked and what didn't. SEO involves experimenting, testing, learning, discovering what others haven't discovered and using it to your advantage.

Not the wuss operation that so-called SEOs run today i.e. reading up on "whitehat" SEO and implementing that to the letter.

Search Engine Optimisation is not all about following Google's guidelines (and hoping for the best). It's about getting to the top of the SERPs.. In multiple search engines. And using all the techniques (both SE approved and not approved) to get there.

Most people who call themselves SEOs today are not really SEOs, they are button pushers following some dumb ass rules (that they think work because Matt said so) desperately hoping the Google god will reward them for playing nicely. They don't know what it takes, they only know to implement what Google has told them to implement. They are puppets pretending to be SEOs. Everything they know could be learnt in one afternoon by somebody starting from scratch. Experts, my ass!

Does that answer your question?

 

[fisicx]

IAnd regarding DA, we're saying the same thing now. It's an indicator used by SEOs to prioritise their work.

No, we are not in agreement at all. Some people use DA because they think it matters. You can use it as a rough comparison measure if you want but it's not a ranking signal in any shape or form in the same way Toolbar PageRank was never an indication of anything useful.

 

[neils3]

No, we are not in agreement at all. Some people use DA because they think it matters. You can use it as a rough comparison measure if you want but it's not a ranking signal in any shape or form in the same way Toolbar PageRank was never an indication of anything useful.

I'm also saying it's not a ranking signal, we are both saying the same thing. If you look at your initial comment, this is what you said "second is a made up number that Google isn't the slightest bit interested in." - that clearly doesn't make any sense. DA is a indicator SEOs use.

 

[Marek Skoczylas]

Lol - so much noise about "presumed" SEO indicator.

 

[neils3]

That, sir, includes you. (I've read a bit of your site)

I'm not sure what's with this forum in general with the attacking nature of comments I see across many threads, and that sir, includes your comment.

I've never provided any SEO services)

I gathered when I read the rest of your comments.

I've worked with people who really knew their stuff - the type who actually spent hundreds of thousands testing the algos in a variety of ways, auto creating pages, faking links, manipulating PR, using 302 redirects on drop catches .... you name it.

Sounds like you have an appreciation for tactics which people refer to grey hat or black hat. Some of these (auto create pages, manipulating PR) I'm not even sure where they sit! Anything white hat seems to be button pushers from your view. That's an opinion I'm not used to hearing very often, but in summary, I don't agree. Your comment suggests that someone offering these services, would appeal to you.

wuss operation that so-called SEOs run today i.e. reading up on "whitehat" SEO and implementing that to the letter.

whitehat = wuss, I don't know where to start with that comment, so I'm not going to.

It's about getting to the top of the SERPs..

We agree. At the end of the day, if someone can show they can rank in the SERPS. that's all that matters.

 

[neils3]

Lol - so much noise about "presumed" SEO indicator

Lol

 

[justinaldridge]

A thread with this title was always going to be fun to watch!

I have to completely agree with @fisicx regarding DA. I never use that as a reference to compare anything. I think it's quite an inaccurate measurement as Moz's spiders are nowhere near as thorough at crawling the web as Google or even Ahrefs and Majestic.

Also, I just don't like Moz at all.

With regards to the original question, the majority of our clients depend on organic search rankings. When you've experienced the value of good Google rankings it's obvious where most of the marketing time and money needs to be spent.

It doesn't work for every business...but it does work for most.

The skeptics are the ones who have never succeeded and just don't realise what an impact high Google rankings can have on their business.

I have lived a very good life for the past 12 years with an online income because of Google. I never realised it was possible until it worked for me.

Businesses need to try it otherwise they'll never know..

 

[neils3]

I just don't like Moz at all.

With regards to the original question, the majority of our clients depend on organic search rankings. When you've experienced the value of good Google rankings it's obvious where most of the marketing time and money needs to be spent...

The skeptics are the ones who have never succeeded and just don't realise what an impact high Google rankings can have on their business.

Yep this post has certainly created quite a bit of discussion.

Other than Moz DA , I also prefer other tools, in particular Ahrefs.

If you can crack it in Search, you can have some amazing results, so to your point about not succeeding, I also think this is a big reason for putting people off.

Cheers

 

[Clinton]

Your comment suggests that someone offering these services, would appeal to you..

I'm not looking for services, thanks. I was simply helping you by answering your question. Or was it not answers you were looking for?

The skeptics are the ones who have never succeeded and just don't realise what an impact high Google rankings can have on their business..

No kidding! High rankings can get traffic? Stop the presses.

I "owned" the UK SERPs for some of the most competitive terms in the world including "make money online" and high CPC terms such as "CRM Software" and "cheap laptops".

I had the #1 spot on all those terms (and others).....for years! From Florida to numerous other algo changes, I rode the ride and came out ahead.

I made money on them, of course, till I got bored and moved on a few years ago. The point is that perhaps sceptics are not those who've not experienced SERPs success, but those who've been there, done that and find the current silly puppet show highly amusing. You keep telling us how much money you've made thanks to Google. Been there, done that too, including with your beloved Adsense - I had multiple FedEx and then UPS Club accounts ...if you know what those are. My "cheap laptops" page alone earned $500 a day ... so, yes, I do have some idea of what #1 means if you have that ranking for the right terms.

Though I don't see why anyone who can get those rankings would provide SEO services for a grand or two a month instead of working for himself!

When you've experienced the value of good Google rankings it's obvious where most of the marketing time and money needs to be spent.

For most small businesses hiring an SEO offers one of the lowest RoIs. The friend Neil mentioned in the OP is the smart one as he's recognised the "waste of money" (though I don't expect firms selling SEO services to agree with him).

 

[elad]

entertaining

 

[justinaldridge]

@Clinton you are coming across as very angry about all of this. Not sure why it stresses you out so much. You need to accept that for many businesses SEO just works and it's their main lead and growth generator.

 

[fisicx]

Lol - so much noise about "presumed" SEO indicator.

It's not necessarily noise about this indicator. The OP asked why people are skeptical about SEO services. It was pointed out that OP makes claims on their website that DA and PageRank are critical to SEO. It's because of claims like this (and many others on the OPs website) that make people skeptical.

 

[Marek Skoczylas]

It's not necessarily noise about this indicator. The OP asked why people are skeptical about SEO services. It was pointed out that OP makes claims on their website that DA and PageRank are critical to SEO. It's because of claims like this (and many others on the OPs website) that make people skeptical.

Well, looks like small words swap should help OPs alot. Just turn your sentence into: DA and PageRank are useless to SEO - and you'll get bunch of clients. ...OMG

I think in this specific industry with suspicious and infamous history, clients don't give a ...th about fancy, fashionable or very technical offers.

In this specific area most important and critical are two factors:

1. Can you rank at least your own website, for any keyword

or

2. Are you recognized in the SEO industry.

 

[neils3]

Alright guys, this has been fun. Thanks for contributing.

Whilst it felt like some of the responses did not necessarily answer the question, there were some good points coming out:

To summarise the key points made:

1. When people don't agree with the terms used on your website, that makes them skeptical. Either the site content needs updating or their understanding is incorrect. I think we had examples of both in this thread.
2. Not enough SEOs are educating their clients, as Richard put it, "matter of not being educated on the subject, SEO is a long term investment there is no given time frame in which good rankings can appear"
3. Bad experience in the past puts people off. As Marek put it, "Lack of trust for same service in future is the reason entrepreneurs search for something "more safe" - ppc, content marketin, email marketing, offline etc."
4. Some people's view of SEO and the tactics behind it are not necessarily true or not the only ones that exist, change is always difficult.
5. Shopclicks mentioned "SEO should be just one element of a marketing plan"
6. As Clinton pointed out "for many businesses SEO just works and it's their main lead and growth generator"

Cheers

 

[Clinton]

As Clinton pointed out "for many businesses SEO just works and it's their main lead and growth generator"Cheers

I believe it was Justinaldridge who made that claim, not me. That's the type of claim an SEO would make.

@Clinton you are coming across as very angry about all of this.

SEOs make all kinds of nonsense claims. I did want to clear one of yours - that anyone who disagrees must be sceptical because they've never experienced good Google rankings. I'm sceptical because I know what the average SEO out there really does.

We are agreed on one thing - #1 slot for a competitive term can mean a lot of traffic and can be converted to hundreds of thousands, or millions, of pounds. People who are good at SEO (rather than pushing the buttons Google suggests - which are often pointless and sometimes counterproductive), SEO their own sites.

 

[neils3]

Justinaldridge who made that claim, not me

Oops, can't update it either

 

[justinaldridge]

@neils3 with regards to point 2, we used to offer our clients a free online course for them to learn about SEO....but very few ever bothered to log in and watch the videos. Most are simply too busy running their own businesses and most have little interest in really understanding what stuff like penguin and panda has to do with SEO.